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[twow Spoilers] Arianne II, Part 2

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Is this a prediction or fan fiction? This is not a matriarchal society, not by any stretch of the imagination. Women are more often than not second class citizens in the world of Westeros despite some at the top being able to rule. Daenerys will still have to live within certain cultural norms, I don't care how powerful she is.

There's plenty of hints that women in Westeros are more important than we give them credit for. There's this soon to be published novella, the She-Wolves of Winterfell that from the title alone, seems to imply that things have not always been 'handled' by men, even in Winterfell.

We have examples of the Mormonts women, who are fierce fighters and have no husbands that we know of. The spearwives, are exclusively women as well, and, from Ygritte's own words, it seems that knowledge is passed down from mother to daughter amongst them. We know that the fathers blood and titles matters little to wildlings but it's possible that some of the wildlings clans are matriarchal.

In Dorne, women inherit just as well as men.

Balon Greyjoy preferred his own daughter over his son - Asha believed herself entitled to become queen of the iron island. This might well be an exception, but I don't believe that such things happen, 'just like that'. I believe that Balon's trust in his daughter's abilities shows that there has been precedents in the Iron Island's history, were women have played an important role. If every man and woman is shaped by his own society, a child of his/her 'time', then I think it's logical to believe that other women have paved the way for Asha.

There's women like Olenna Tyrell, as well - one can argue that she's not the 'Lord' of highgarden but she is the de facto ruler of house Tyrell. And Melisandre, is a rather important player. Just as Sansa could have immense power at the tip of her fingers, were she only to reach for it.

The 'cultural norms' are clearly not so well defined since all around Westeros (Dorne, beyond the wall), and inside Westeros (Highgarden, Bear Island) women have been powerful. I wouldn't dismiss women that quickly, especially since GRRM has made a point of killing off a lot of the young men in the 7K.

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I am not saying that women can't have power in Westeros, there are numerous examples of powerful women. However I am saying the power they wield and the roles they play are clearly within the framework and cultural norms of patriarchy.

Edited by binga

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I am not saying that women can't have power in Westeros, there are numerous examples of powerful women. However I am saying the power they wield and the roles they play are clearly within the framework and cultural norms of patriarchy.

With the caveat of Dorne of course, which seems to be pretty egalitarian.

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Is this a prediction or fan fiction? This is not a matriarchal society, not by any stretch of the imagination. Women are more often than not second class citizens in the world of Westeros despite some at the top being able to rule. Daenerys will still have to live within certain cultural norms, I don't care how powerful she is.

Whereas men are free to do entirely as they please and totally flout cultural norms, without any censure, judgement or consequences?

Right...

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GRRM has drawn much from actual history, especially Scottish history.

The rulers of Scotland (before the Irish (Scotti) invasion) were indeed matriarchal as a society.

The REAL story of MacBeth was of a battle between the matriarchal rightful heir in the Pictish tradition - MacBeth and the Irish heir Duncan, based on the patrilineal /Anglo Saxon tradition.

So no problems with matriarchal societies. Remember Boudicea - the fierce warrior Queen. The Britons had a tradition of female leadership. It was a matriarchal society.

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"If you would wed, wed" the Red Viper had told his own daughters. "If not, take your pleasure where you find it. There's little enough of it in this world. Choose well, though. If you saddle yourself with a fool or a brute, don't look to me to rid you of him. I gave you the tools to do that for yourself."

When Arianne marries Aegon, he will prove to be a bit of a fool, as he suffers from some of the shortcomings of youth, as Tyrion notes he risks all for the quick kill, and Aegon is still lacking in maturity.

Could this quote provide any hints?

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I think that if Arianne marries, it won't be Aegon. Rereading her chapters, I noticed she likes to think herself of Nymeria reborn. But what if she resembles the first Daenerys more than she does Nymeria? There are some shared characteristics between the two: both loved by a bastard named Daemon (Blackfyre, Sand), who asked their guardians (Doran, Daeron) for their hand but were refused. So what if Arianne is actually Daenerys I reborn? In that case, she wouldn't marry for passion or love, but for duty. I don't see Aegon fitting that image.

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"If you would wed, wed" the Red Viper had told his own daughters. "If not, take your pleasure where you find it. There's little enough of it in this world. Choose well, though. If you saddle yourself with a fool or a brute, don't look to me to rid you of him. I gave you the tools to do that for yourself." When Arianne marries Aegon, he will prove to be a bit of a fool, as he suffers from some of the shortcomings of youth, as Tyrion notes he risks all for the quick kill, and Aegon is still lacking in maturity. Could this quote provide any hints?

But Arrianne is Doran's daughter not Oberyn's. I see where you are coming from though, I do hope Arrianne kills Aegon. If this happens, knowing Arrianne it will be Durin the consummation, har!

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But Arrianne is Doran's daughter not Oberyn's. I see where you are coming from though, I do hope Arrianne kills Aegon. If this happens, knowing Arrianne it will be Durin the consummation, har!

I know Arianne is Doran's daughter, but she wishes Oberyn was her father instead of Doran.

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Umm, Arianne actually thought of Oberyn in a very NOT fatherly way, in aFfC Queenmaker chapter.

Didn't Arianne in this TWoW chapter released on which this thread is based confide in Elia that she wishes Oberyn was her father?

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How big is the chance Elia will be the one to get Dorne involved in the war? IIRC, Arianne reflects Elia was send with her as a mirror to herself. And then she catches Elia making out with the one servant in charge of their birds? The actual birds Arianne will use to message her father and their bannerman of her findings. If Elia does follow after Arianne, how big is the chance she uses the same tools Arianne did to get a man to do what she wants him to do?



Of course, there is still the point of the actual content of the message: war means wait, dragon means war. But perhaps Elia knows her uncle well enough to figure out that sending the message 'war' is opposite to what she might want. Getting Dorne involved in the war, to get revenge for the death of her father.


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Even Kevan realized what a greedy scum Mace was.



The more I give him [Mace Tyrell], the more he wants. Kevan Lannister was beginning to understand why Cersei had grown so resentful of the Tyrells.


I think Varys will try to break the Reach and steal the strong bannermen of the Tyrells. And that is one of the reasons why they want to have Dorne as their primary ally.


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I wonder...Myr, Lys and Tyrosh seem to have started a full out maritime war in the Stepstones, Aurane Waters and Sallador Saan are there too, plus the pirates that were already there, plus the Ironborn fleet swept through them too, and still have to make the way back, and the Golden Company are taking control of some islands near there (Estermont and Tarth, for example), and even krakens are surfacing to prey on galleys...



Taking into account that the Stepstones bottleneck is swarming with warships, will the trade routes between the Narrow and Summer seas get cut? How will that affect the economy, already damaged by Slaver's Bay's war? Will Braavos, Lorath, Pentos, Volantis and the Summer Islands do something to unlock the Stepstones?


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I wonder...Myr, Lys and Tyrosh seem to have started a full out maritime war in the Stepstones, Aurane Waters and Sallador Saan are there too, plus the pirates that were already there, plus the Ironborn fleet swept through them too, and still have to make the way back, and the Golden Company are taking control of some islands near there (Estermont and Tarth, for example), and even krakens are surfacing to prey on galleys...

Taking into account that the Stepstones bottleneck is swarming with warships, will the trade routes between the Narrow and Summer seas get cut? How will that affect the economy, already damaged by Slaver's Bay's war? Will Braavos, Lorath, Pentos, Volantis and the Summer Islands do something to unlock the Stepstones?

or did Aegons conquest pacify the region: another thing that amnazes me: how "uneventfull" Arianne journey is.

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or did Aegons conquest pacify the region: another thing that amnazes me: how "uneventfull" Arianne journey is.

Isn't she just crossing Dorne though? She hasn't yet entered any "perilous" areas yet has she? (or do i need to re-read the sample :()

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or did Aegons conquest pacify the region: another thing that amnazes me: how "uneventfull" Arianne journey is.

Uneventful? They were short chapters that both advanced the plot and planted subtle clues to the future of the plot. The fact that there are caves likely warded against the dead and white walkers in Dorne/ the Stormlands. Can't remember which for sure, I think it was Dorne. The obviously foreshadowing for Dany and Aegon fighting, admittedly already foreshadowed. Letting us know that Aegon has taken Storms End, letting us know that Dorans hosts have already lost strength and loose more all the time, letting us know about the Balon Swann Areo Hotah Darkstar plot. I'd say they were more eventful than the usual chapters.

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Uneventful? They were short chapters that both advanced the plot and planted subtle clues to the future of the plot. The fact that there are caves likely warded against the dead and white walkers in Dorne/ the Stormlands. Can't remember which for sure, I think it was Dorne. The obviously foreshadowing for Dany and Aegon fighting, admittedly already foreshadowed. Letting us know that Aegon has taken Storms End, letting us know that Dorans hosts have already lost strength and loose more all the time, letting us know about the Balon Swann Areo Hotah Darkstar plot. I'd say they were more eventful than the usual chapters.

Sometimes people choose to define any chapter without a death/swordplay as "uneventful." As though anything not-fighting is not Story. The Defence points to the river travel Tyrion chapters: plenty of story, no fighting.

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