What Will Become of the Lannister Siblings, Part Deux

[Daemrion]

I totally missed your ETA. Personally, I think that it was unnecessary and frankly, I just don't want to read that sort of thing. Its odd, because the more distance I get from ADWD the more upset I get about the actual content (I think I needed time to absorb what I had read). I feel like it glories more than in previous book (and lingers in more loving detail) over some of the more hideous aspects of the world that were only in for background color previously, and it frankly has disturbed me and turned me off the series to some extent. Not enough to stop me from reading and posting about it, but I don't feel the same way about ASOIAF as I did before. And I agree about Jeyne's nose!

But nonetheless, this thread isn't really the place for this discussion and this board isn't either. So I'll shut up now. ;)

I agree. The increase in gratuitous violence and sex scenes, and the padding with unnecessary detail distracting from plot and character development which are actually the two most important things in the series is detracting from how good the books are. I think that ADWD was actually worse than AFFC.

[Lord Mormont's Raven]

Erm - maybe Jeyne will find that getting away from Ramsay was worth a hundred frostbitten noses. I'm not sure she'll mind so much even if it has to come off. The pure fact of her surviving against all odds and reaching Stannis, who will at least not brutally rape her every night, will probably be all that matters to her.

But there are certainly better places on this board to discuss this (and the question of gratuitous sex and violence in ADWD) than this particular thread...

To take this half-way back on topic, as for the Blackfish's current plans and destination, those of you who say he's headed to the Vale - why should he?

Of course it would make sense narratively for him to team up with Sansa at some point, but he doesn't know Sansa is there. Does he even know Lysa is dead, and it's LF pulling the strings in the Vale now? So why would he go there, of all places? (It would make sense objectively, but from his own POV, he really has no reason.)

I still think it's a lot more likely he'll put himself at the head of a Riverlands guerilla, with Edmure's liberation as his first project. (Does anyone seriously expect Edmure to reach CR as planned, meeting no trouble on the way!?)

I do agree that he will be horrified if he meets LS. That's why I think they won't just team up to continue Frey-hunting, it's much more likely the Blackfish will replace LS than work under her.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I still think it's a lot more likely he'll put himself at the head of a Riverlands guerilla, with Edmure's liberation as his first project. (Does anyone seriously expect Edmure to reach CR as planned, meeting no trouble on the way!?)

Interesting question. There are lot of crazy elements in play in the Riverlands — Lady Stoneheart and the BWB, the northern prisoners at the Twins (including the Greatjon), the escaped Blackfish, Edmure on his way to house arrest and that army that Bolton left on the river bank before the Red Wedding that seems to have fallen off the face of the earth. And we still have Maege Mormont and Galbart Glover doing ... something ... in the Neck, plus the Mallisters holed up at Seagard. It's like a powder keg of potential badassery.

[Wouter]

To be honest I was more horrified - and I know how weird this sounds - when Jeyne turns up again and Martin casually informs us she's got frostbite in her nose, which seems to suggest she'll lose it.

Going by this wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frostbite , there are 4 degrees of severity in frostbite, with the 2 least worse degrees not leading to amputations (or the flesh otherwise coming off), and the third degree possibly so.

So, let's hope Jeyne only has a mild, beginning case of Frostbite and she'll get moved to a heated environment in Stannis' camp (they have heated tents IIRC).

Given the extremely bad conditions in the north, frostbite is not unexpected.

[brashcandy]

I agree. The increase in gratuitous violence and sex scenes, and the padding with unnecessary detail distracting from plot and character development which are actually the two most important things in the series is detracting from how good the books are. I think that ADWD was actually worse than AFFC.

It was, but not by much. The scene where Biter chews on Brienne's face was completely gratuitous and unnecessary. We know she's already ugly and scorned for it by nearly everyone. Now you have to disfigure her as well?

[Tini]

It might have been worse. Brienne might have lost a hand. Or a leg. I hope we see her come to grips with her looks. It's not gartuitous if it play a part of her further story.

[Sun]

It was, but not by much. The scene where Biter chews on Brienne's face was completely gratuitous and unnecessary. We know she's already ugly and scorned for it by nearly everyone. Now you have to disfigure her as well?

I think that may have been the single most painful scene in the book for me.

[Alexia]

So, let's hope Jeyne only has a mild, beginning case of Frostbite and she'll get moved to a heated environment in Stannis' camp (they have heated tents IIRC).

Well...

If she had not been so frightened, she might even have been pretty, though the tip of her nose was black with frostbite.

Jeyne not losing her nose would go completely against the rules of frostbite. And given how much GRRM enjoys disfiguring his creations, uhm, no.

[Wouter]

Jeyne not losing her nose would go completely against the rules of frostbite.

I'm absolutely not an expert on frostbite and I know Wikipedia isn't always terribly reliable, but even so it seems unlikely that this article has just been made up and frostbite always has to result in the loss of the affected part(s)? It seems logical there are degrees of frostbite, just like with burns.

How was the frostbite described on Jeyne, was it clearly visible or was it said to be a slight touch of it?

[iamthedave]

I'm absolutely not an expert on frostbite and I know Wikipedia isn't always terribly reliable, but even so it seems unlikely that this article has just been made up and frostbite always has to result in the loss of the affected part(s)? It seems logical there are degrees of frostbite, just like with burns.

How was the frostbite described on Jeyne, was it clearly visible or was it said to be a slight touch of it?

Yes, but this is Martin.

That gives her nose maybe a 0.3% chance of survival.

[Alexia]

I'm absolutely not an expert on frostbite and I know Wikipedia isn't always terribly reliable, but even so it seems unlikely that this article has just been made up and frostbite always has to result in the loss of the affected part(s)? It seems logical there are degrees of frostbite, just like with burns.

How was the frostbite described on Jeyne, was it clearly visible or was it said to be a slight touch of it?

In the portion of the text I quoted above, the tip of her nose was black with frostbite. That means that it is a goner. She doesn't have a mild case of it.

[Wouter]

Damn, that's not looking good at all :frown5:

[voodooqueen126]

Erm - maybe Jeyne will find that getting away from Ramsay was worth a hundred frostbitten noses. I'm not sure she'll mind so much even if it has to come off. The pure fact of her surviving against all odds and reaching Stannis, who will at least not brutally rape her every night, will probably be all that matters to her.

But there are certainly better places on this board to discuss this (and the question of gratuitous sex and violence in ADWD) than this particular thread...

To take this half-way back on topic, as for the Blackfish's current plans and destination, those of you who say he's headed to the Vale - why should he?

Of course it would make sense narratively for him to team up with Sansa at some point, but he doesn't know Sansa is there. Does he even know Lysa is dead, and it's LF pulling the strings in the Vale now? So why would he go there, of all places? (It would make sense objectively, but from his own POV, he really has no reason.)

I still think it's a lot more likely he'll put himself at the head of a Riverlands guerilla, with Edmure's liberation as his first project. (Does anyone seriously expect Edmure to reach CR as planned, meeting no trouble on the way!?)

I do agree that he will be horrified if he meets LS. That's why I think they won't just team up to continue Frey-hunting, it's much more likely the Blackfish will replace LS than work under her.

Presumably Blackfish is going to the Vale to use the Vale's armies to claim the Riverlands for Sweetrobin.

[Lord Mormont's Raven]

Presumably Blackfish is going to the Vale to use the Vale's armies to claim the Riverlands for Sweetrobin.

Why, if the rightful Lord of Riverrun from the Tully POV (Edmure) is still alive and well, as far as the Blackfish knows? Does he want to make Sweetrobin the Lord Regent in Edmure's place, or what? With what right? And how can he think the boy suitable for such a position, even if it is largely symbolic?

[Alexia]

Why, if the rightful Lord of Riverrun from the Tully POV (Edmure) is still alive and well, as far as the Blackfish knows? Does he want to make Sweetrobin the Lord Regent in Edmure's place, or what? With what right? And how can he think the boy suitable for such a position, even if it is largely symbolic?

The Blackfish doesn't respect Edmure in any way. Never has. And now Edmure has gone into permanent captivity at the Rock, where he is quite likely to die. The Blackfish is not going to accept Roslin Frey's child as the Lord of Riverrun after what happened at the Red Wedding, either.

And it is quite possible that when Edmure and the Blackfish talked, after Edmure was sent back into Riverrun, that Edmure agreed to concede his claim if the Blackfish could only get the Tullys restored to Riverrun.

So far as the world knows, Sansa is the next heir in line for Riverrun after Edmure's child by Roslin. However, she is missing and possibly with her Lannister husband. So the Blackfish will go look an heir not under Lannister control, whose location is known... Sweetrobin.

[Howlin' Howland Reed]

Man, if Blackfish thinks that Sweetrobin is a better choice than Edmure... Obviously, Brynden would take charge himself, but it's such a short term solution, it would be stupid.

I wouldn't put it past the Blackfish though.

[Howlin' Howland Reed]

Man, if Blackfish thinks that Sweetrobin is a better choice than Edmure... Obviously, Brynden would take charge himself, but it's such a short term solution, it would be stupid.

I wouldn't put it past the Blackfish though.

Hey, I'm replying to myself!

Calling it a stupid move on the Blackfish's part is probably, well, stupid of me. After all, the Vale is untouched by the war, and the Blackfish has friends there. Even if he would want to install Edmure as Lord of Riverrun, he's not in a position to do so without some serious backup.

[Alexia]

They need an army to claim Riverrun for the Tullys. Which the Arryns have. And the situation with Sweetrobin is part of why I think that the moment he lays eyes on Sansa, he is going to snatch her up to claim Riverrun. She is healthy and sane, and near adulthood.

I also tend to expect to see the Blackfish mastermind another marriage against the will of the unfortunate participant. I am somewhat concerned that he might try to make Sansa marry Robert.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I actually like the idea of the Blackfish making a break for the Vale to raise an army. Makes a lot of sense, and it also makes sense that the Blackfish would write off Edmure as dead and/or under duress and Roslin's baby as completely unacceptable, for obvious reasons.

[Howlin' Howland Reed]

I also tend to expect to see the Blackfish mastermind another marriage against the will of the unfortunate participant. I am somewhat concerned that he might try to make Sansa marry Robert.

She should just tell her she's gay. He'll understand. :ph34r: