Unpopular opinions, more of them

[Alexia]

I've yet to see a post though that suggests that should happen now. All most all of them have the caveat somewhere that it should be when she is way older and he has apologized and reformed.

Oh, that's what she meant. I couldn't even tell since she didn't bother responding to the challenge post directly.

And yeah, there are plenty of people (myself included) who want SanSan sex eventually but (here's a novel idea for you, that people repeat and repeat and you consistently ignore) in the future when she's much older.

But whatevs, people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. At least the SanSan shippers (who don't deny their shipping from atop a high horse, only to have it quoted back at them) don't write up a plethora of posts about how it was her fault that she was almost "fucked."

[1234567]

I find the wildlings entertaining, but if anything, their society is worse for women than the rest of Westeros. Remember the poor Northern girls they were kidnapping in raids?

Bloody good point. They are rapists too. While wildling women may have a freer existence to some extent, any woman captured from south of the Wall is not going to enjoy their lifestyle unless they take Stockholm Syndrome the Easy Way 1.01 with guest Lecturer Daenerys Targaryen.

That said I like Jon. Not as much as I used too, but I still like his character a lot. I did find his ADWD chapters kinda dull...unless they had Stannis in them :wub: .

[Alexia]

Jon Snow doesn't even know how offensive he is!!!

LOL, what on Earth is this? :lol:

[1234567]

LOL, what on Earth is this? :lol:

Well the photo would certainly answer the OP in the Is Jon Handsome thread....and the answer is no....and constant snow and wind ages you terribly. :P

EDIT: Ah the fury the British press can get into over someone Not wearing a poppy. Also it is on the Daily Mail website which is a sensationalist paper to say the least. Actually highly amusing to read online, especially the comments section from the public.....both scary and hysterical (in a it wasn't meant to be funny way).

[Woman of War]

I like Jon even more in his last ADWD chapters, when he did what he should not have done: turning the Night Watch towards politics. He got so much more complex as a character by then and the whole story took a definite leap . No idea if he is dead - but hopefully not Undead.

[voodooqueen126]

Well, I guess this is a hella unpopular opinion: I like Jon. I also like the Wildings; I think in certain respects their society is superior to that of feudal Westeros; at least women are allowed a certain autonomy.

I've always wanted to be kidnapped by some creepy filthy man, live in poverty with no way of escaping it far away from my family.

[Sun]

Unpopular opinion:

I'd rather see Arya die than end up a professional assassin.

[brashcandy]

Uh, what? I have no bloody idea. Why don't you spell out what you mean? Afraid it's going to sound too stupid?

Both Jon and Dany are attempting to make large scale changes to their societies. Jon moreso out of sheer necessity, although there is a very real humanitarian aspect to what he's doing as well. Dany has been endlessly criticised for freeing slaves which many have seen as leading to the destabilization of the economy in Slaver's Bay. I've seen plenty arguments which suggest that she should have just left the slavers alone, because now the slaves are free with no way to contribute to the economy. I'm seeing the same suggestion here - that the wildlings have no way of benefitting Westeros, and that basically Jon is adding to the chaos and making things worse. I don't believe this, and ADWD shows that Jon had some solid ideas on how to integrate the wildlings into Northern society. Same thing with Dany - the slaves can be productive citizens, but not in an environment where they're being threatened and killed. The wildlings might have been known as the free folk, but they existed as exiles and outlaws for most of their history. Becoming citizens of Westeros, and earning the respect of others will be challenging, but Martin isn't bending the laws of characterisation to do so, IMO.

[mediocre cheese]

I've always wanted to be kidnapped by some creepy filthy man, live in poverty with no way of escaping it far away from my family.

You'd love Chechnya than.

[1234567]

Unpopular opinion:

I'd rather see Arya die than end up a professional assassin.

Same here. She has already killed one man who has done nothing to her or anyone else that deserves to be punished by death.

Assassin is not a cool job title. It is a souless and vile profession. The Faceless Men kill anyone they are hired too.

EDIT:

You'd love Chechnya than.

God I mentioned this on another thread. There is a really good BBC documentary on this called Stolen Brides, by Lucy Ash. It's bloody heartbreaking.

[Alexia]

I don't think anyone is arguing that the wildlings have no way to contribute to society. Eventually, they will integrate into Westeros society. But the short-term consequences weren't thought through -- in the short term, Jon has introduced massive social upheaval. People will die, there will be battles fought, it will take time to settle the wildlings into the North. Especially since no plan was ever laid out for how to handle settling them into the North.

Massive upheaval will follow something like this. It had to be done, or else Jon would have been facing a ton of additional wights thrown at the Wall. But it ain't going to be all sunshine and roses now that its done, and they aren't going to meekly bend the knee and accommodate to the dominant Northern culture now without a difficult time period of adjustment.

[Alexia]

You'd love Chechnya than.

This is why I have so much trouble with the way GRRM chose to depict the practice of bridal kidnapping. It isn't some cool thing that women love, it is a horrible misogynistic crime against women. There is so much fail that went into creating Ygritte, but that's where I'd start.

[mor2]

I don't think anyone is arguing that the wildlings have no way to contribute to society. Eventually, they will integrate into Westeros society. But the short-term consequences weren't thought through -- in the short term, Jon has introduced massive social upheaval. People will die, there will be battles fought, it will take time to settle the wildlings into the North. Especially since no plan was ever laid out for how to handle settling them into the North.

Massive upheaval will follow something like this. It had to be done, or else Jon would have been facing a ton of additional wights thrown at the Wall. But it ain't going to be all sunshine and roses now that its done, and they aren't going to meekly bend the knee and accommodate to the dominant Northern culture now without a difficult time period of adjustment.

Settling them in the North isnt such a big problem, you just resettle all the lands that were abandoned, in recent years. The real problem is as you said the short term, with winter upon them they cannot support all the wildlings.

[brashcandy]

I don't think anyone is arguing that the wildlings have no way to contribute to society. Eventually, they will integrate into Westeros society. But the short-term consequences weren't thought through -- in the short term, Jon has introduced massive social upheaval. People will die, there will be battles fought, it will take time to settle the wildlings into the North. Especially since no plan was ever laid out for how to handle settling them into the North.

Massive upheaval will follow something like this. It had to be done, or else Jon would have been facing a ton of additional wights thrown at the Wall. But it ain't going to be all sunshine and roses now that its done, and they aren't going to meekly bend the knee and accommodate to the dominant Northern culture now without a difficult time period of adjustment.

Unfortunately, there was no time for consideration of the long term consequences. I don't believe Jon was naive in thinking that it would be sunshine and roses, but it wouldn't have been the smart or decent thing to leave them on the other side of the wall. Westeros on the whole is experiencing social upheaval - the North in particular. The entire continent could be facing extinction. Wildling integration is actually pretty minor in the face of other threats and wars being fought. I'd agree that if/when things return to normal, the wildlings will have some hard choices to make, but right now they are not the ones contributing to the chaos.

[Alexia]

I'd agree that if/when things return to normal, the wildlings will have some hard choices to make, but right now they are not the ones contributing to the chaos.

Now that Jon's dead they will. In fact, I expect lots and lots of problems -- especially with Umber, who wasn't too fond of them because of their practice of kidnapping Umber girls.

Who are they loyal to now? When Bowen Marsh demands they go back across the Wall, will they nod and scrape, or shout F U and then start pitched battles with the Watch? What happens if another Northern lord (like Umber) goes to fight them because of the bad blood, battles start, and then other lords choose sides (and the side they choose would certainly be Umbers).

The fact that 10,000 wildlings are in the North now and the person who arranged for their emigration did so by fiat and is now dead -- ain't going to help anything. At this rate, the Others should be picking their teeth with the bones of the Northerners in short order...

Settling them in the North isnt such a big problem, you just resettle all the lands that were abandoned, in recent years. The real problem is as you said the short term, with winter upon them they cannot support all the wildlings.

Agree, but there are always problems with immigration. Culture clash is nothing to look down upon -- just look at immigration in any real world culture. In the United States... the events that led up to the Chinese Exclusion Act, the problems with Irish immigration, the current problems with Hispanic immigration. France isn't having a great time with their Arab immigration -- I seem to remember riots not that long ago.

Even under the best of circumstances, there would be strain, if not violence. This isn't the best of circumstances.

[Renolm]

... any woman captured from south of the Wall is not going to enjoy their lifestyle unless they take Stockholm Syndrome the Easy Way 1.01 with guest Lecturer Daenerys Targaryen.

:lol:

[brashcandy]

Now that Jon's dead they will. In fact, I expect lots and lots of problems -- especially with Umber, who wasn't too fond of them because of their practice of kidnapping Umber girls.

Who are they loyal to now? When Bowen Marsh demands they go back across the Wall, will they nod and scrape, or shout F U and then start pitched battles with the Watch? What happens if another Northern lord (like Umber) goes to fight them because of the bad blood, battles start, and then other lords choose sides (and the side they choose would certainly be Umbers).

The fact that 10,000 wildlings are in the North now and the person who arranged for their emigration did so by fiat and is now dead -- ain't going to help anything. At this rate, the Others should be picking their teeth with the bones of the Northerners in short order...

There is a good chance this could happen, but an equally good chance that it might not. Tormund could take charge in Jon's absence and help to soothe tensions. Hell, Mance might come back and restore some order if he really wasn't captured by Ramsay (which I doubt). There's also Stannis as well who might recover long enough to return to the wall and help fill the vacuum. I like to think that Alys' marriage to the wildling helped somewhat to heal tensions, and frankly the Umbers have a lot more to worry about than the wildlings.

[Raksha the Demon]

Unpopular opinion:

I'd rather see Arya die than end up a professional assassin.

Actually, I'd rather not see her do either; but I don't think that becoming a professional assassin is cool or wonderful or whatever; I see it as a tragedy, that Arya, who was such a plucky, promising little kid, is becoming a hired thug. I don't blame her; Arya is a little girl who has seen and endured terrible things, including war, and has reacted by learning to kill, and has had not had proper adult supervision since poor Yoren was killed, at least not for any length of time. (the closest she came was Lady Smallwood, who Arya actually liked) I did enjoy the Hound/Arya chapters; and he probably saved her life by preventing her from trying to reach her mother and Robb during the hell of the Red Wedding. (not to mention that the Hound kept Arya safe even after the Red Wedding, when there was no mother or brother to ransom her to) I'd have rather Arya have somehow ended up in Dorne, been betrothed to Trystane, and taught fighting by the Sand Snakes.

[lyvyathan]

It's quite ironic, but I am sure if Tyrion and Woman of War ever met, he would no doubt call her old and sagging, not because she is (she comes across as a handsome type of woman) but because Tyrion has no use for women who aren't beautiful, young and available to him.

Of course if he met me he would say some appalling vulgar sexual joke...

All the likable things about Tyrion (his intelligence and humour) is not something that any woman ever gets to enjoy, unless they enjoy being the butt of a crass joke about either their age and unattractiveness or their sexual availability.

That's not exactly true. Tyrion liked the Septon mentoring the Targ boy and by all accounts they both got on pretty well.

[mediterraneo]

:lol:

Daenerys was not kidnapped, but sold to her husband for a political advantage in a "very civilized", Seven Kingdom traditional way.

Then she needed nevertheless to lie under an unknown and unpredictable barbaric chieftain she couldn't speak with, after seeing how excited he was looking at the death duels during "the most beautiful day of her life".

In any case she confirms her participation on the lecture...

Bad idea to be born a woman on Westeros, and on Essos... In our world too, in many places not as much as down there but...

That's not exactly true. Tyrion liked the Septon mentoring the Targ boy and by all accounts they both got on pretty well.

But he liked her because he liked her body...

EDIT: I wrote it up with more machism than I myself could stand, and tryed to down it a bit.