(ADwD Spoilers) Dany the Mad Queen

[ARYa_Nym]

There's quite a few parallels between Dany and Jon, as people have pointed out on these boards. Too much to write off, IMO. Not sure of the specifics of how they will meet/what will happen when they do, but yeah, I definitely agree something will happen between them.

The point about it being cheesy : well, its certainly a fantasy cliche of sorts, but the fact that they're aunt-nephew ( if R+L=J is true of course) sort of subverts that IMO( due to the swick factor of incest). In the classic ' princess meets long lost hero' set up, real world medieval relationships ( where incest was more common) are glossed over or ignored for modern sensibilities. So in this sense, if Jon and Dany become an item, its less of fairly tale romance on GRRM's part, and more for reasons of future plot.

But either way, if its well written and believable, then thats what counts to me.

I think it could be funny especially if they don't like each other at first.

On a side note, Aegon is related to Dany and wants to marry her. I see this as no different than Jon only Dany will marry someone with a legitimate stronger claim than her.

[Val the Wildling Princess]

Jon/Daenerys isn't as bad as Jon/Sansa or Jon/Arya, because at least the two of them weren't raised together as relatives.

All of them are bad to me to be quite honest, Jon/Arya or Sansa sounds sick to me, they are family and were raised together as you said so it's a big NO. Anyway I suposse there are enough women on Westeros to end up screwing your sisters/aunt, ugh.

[TrueLion]

One thing that always bothered me about Dany is that she has accepted Viserys' rhetoric that they are the ones who deserve to rule. Sure Robert stole the throne from her father, but her great ancestors overcame many different kings by force, and even previous kings in her family came to the throne through force. Force is an acceptable way to win a throne. But if, like you said, Jon or Aegon do have a better claim than her, I am not sure how she would handle this. I can not see her just accepting the fact that she actually isn't the rightful heir of the Seven Kingdoms. I do not see her coming to Westeros, thinking she is the sole ruler and finding out someone else actually should be and just stepping aside. I, instead, see her having more of a meltdown like Viserys did.

This has to be one of the main reasons she seems to be on the path to madness: being utterly blind to her family's nature. Never questions why she was exiled, accepts what Viserys says to her over and over even though he had no real evidence or proof to back it up, and assumes she's owed something simply because she was born. And those who don't kiss her ass, as stated in like every post previous to this one, get her dragon wrath instead. Or she forcefully inserts herself into their lives and screws them up, then says "Whoopsies."

Granted, she had been through the ringer--like most chars--but old gods forbid someone tells her she has no right to the Iron Throne, coupled with her foolish behavior (leaving two grown-ass dragons behind to pretty much w/e the hell they feel like doing) its all the building blocks for another major Targ meltdown. That or she'll gain an even greater superiority complex and prove she's the rightful ruler by fire and blood etc. etc.

[Faint]

I think that would be a horrible ending to Dany's story. Defeated by childbirth? Daenerys the Unburned, Mother of Dragons blatty blah blah...dies giving birth? *Yawn* I do want Dany to die, but in a more elaborate way. Sacrificing herself for Westeros would do.

I never imagined that readers' wants figured much into GRRM's thinking. And, not incidentally, the ending is supposed to be bittersweet. You know, the Others defeated, the world safe, but Daenerys not there to enjoy it.

[Whatever]

1)Oh, okay. I stand corrected. But the idea is still the same: Daenerys doesn't ever buy them. She is given command of them and then uses them to kill their old masters. But after that she frees them, and they CHOOSE to follow her. It's not the same as buying weed and then killing the dealer, because the weed doesn't have the choice to follow you. The same could have happened with the slavers and Drogon, as they could have used him to kill Daenerys and then reclaimed the Unsullied.

2)I really don't think that they're comparable...It's not like in Pentos, for example, where slavery still exists despite being illegal. I do see your point, but the fact is that the slaves all WANT to be freed.

I don't know about anyone else here, but I'd much rather be a "peasant" than a slave.

1)yes, she does. because she does pay the slavers - only "the payment" didn't agree. They did choose the free them (although this is stupid, because an Unsullied doesn't have a life apart for fighting for someone), but when they killed the Masters, they still belonged to Dany. Do you see the difference?

Anyway, you know as I do that the slavers would have never done something like that - it's not the way their world works.

2)I don't see your point. I'm comparing slaves in Slavers' bay to peasant in westeros, I'm not talking about Pentos. I don't really see any difference between them, but if you'd rather be a paesant, I hope you don't end up working at the Dreadfort

[Wouter]

Dany's path is riddled in fire and blood, there is no way they will both live or succeed as subjective as that may be.

Of course there are ways both Jon and Dany could succeed and live (though it does seem rather unlikely Martin would let both survive, but probably not through conflict between them). The house of the undying prophecy suggests she will like or even love Jon.

No matter how you slice it up, Dany probably wont head to westeros until at least the beginning of book 7 and Im sure Aegon will be crowning himself in glory by then. No one knows who Dany is, but people remember what supposedly happened to prince Aegon as a baby. Because of this I think houses willbe willing to fight for Aegon then Dany because of that reason as well as the fact that Aegon has been taught all about westeros and because he doesn't have dragons. If Aegon does crown himself king then Dany is finished as a heorine, because I think jealously is in her nature, as is her ego and she does NOT want to be 2nd best. It is known.

I don't see any indication for Dany being especially jealous. I think Aegon is fake, and moreover, his identity will also be called into question by many Westerosi lords (and probably smallfolk as well), especially with the Blackfyre-associated Golden Company following him. The house of the undying prophecy suggests Dany will "slay a lie" considering Aegon as the mummer's dragon.

So what will she do know? Get the khalassar and counter westeros after she left three cities crumbling in Essos and Mereen and her loyal followers surrounded by enemies?

If she goes across the narrow sea with the dragons and khalassar they will burn, rape, plunder and eat everything in there path.

That Dany will win the khalasar and then use it as an army in Westeros is speculation. If she does gain control over it (as opposed to being taken captive, getting killed, or burning the lot of them), she might just use it to defeat (some of) her Essos enemies - attack Qarth or Volantis, for example. I doubt she would bring an entire khalasar to Westeros; she may already have trouble with transporting much of her present army as it is now, and the unsullied she'll probably want to use (if they would want to follow her to Westeros). For all we know, her armies may stay in slaver's bay/Volantis/Pentos rather then go to Westeros, and she takes her dragons only and tries to find local allies instead.

The dragons will more likely then not be brought under control well before she reaches Westeros. She has already made a start with Drogon, and Tyrion and his dragon knowledge will come into play next (maybe in conjunction with Victarion's horn, which could end up in Tyrion's hands).

Winter is coming....its going to be a long one. Maybe last a genration or longer. I like to see Dany try to organize food campaigns and stuff then in a country shes never set foot on before.

If Dany maintains a hold on parts of Essos, she can get food shipped in from there. She did look at the food supply for Meereen so it's not like she doesn't think about those things - in this regard she seems to be much like Jon or Ned. Since Dany shares anti-slavery sentiment with Braavos and she is anti-Cersei, she might be allies with them as well, allowing trade and loans similar to what Stannis and Jon are doing now. Dany might well ally with Jon and subscribe to his agreements.

Can I ask everyone on this thread this question? Does it make sense that a dragon will rule westeros during a generation long winter?

This winter will only last a book or 2, I think. Targaryens have rules for 300 years, which includes quite a few long winters.

Westeros is not the Targryans country or rightful ruling place. They only ruled for 300 years which is like 4 days when you add the entire history of westeros. And those 300 years were riddled with crazy leaders and civil war.

But the Targaryens were the ones who made the seven kingdoms (which were separate entities before), so as far as the iron throne goes they ruled for like 280 out of 300 years. Moreoever, as we saw with the northern motive for secession, the dragons were the main reason the kingdom stayed together.

Not to say that independant kingdoms are necessarily worse, but there was a lot of warring going on between these kingdoms, probably more so than civil wars under Targ rule.

Well, it doesn't work on me. Don't get me wrong, but I actually think that the instintive association slavery = evil is an American thing (at least, an "anglo" characteristic), because of your history. IMO slavery doesn't have to imply that a society is evil, just that is still "developing". Slavery was an important characteristic of many ancient civilizations

Did you read the description of the Unsullied "training"? Most of the slavers in Slavers Bay are evil charicatures (just look at Tyrion's description of the Yunkai'i army), but the Astapori "masters" take the cake for unparalleled cruelty. For the matter, what about those chapters where slaves were made by the Dothraki or the Ironborn? The association slavery=evil in the books has everything to do with the way those things are described in the books, and it does imply that Dothraki and Ironborn culture are pretty evil, and that especially Astapor is a most vile society.

[Clementine]

Plenty of other characters have encountered Quaithe. Dany and her party saw her in Qarth and in Vaes Tolorro. The only time others can't see her is when she appears via the glass candles.

Quaithe hasn't made Dany paranoid, anyway. She constantly thinks to herself throughout ADWD that, even if she can't trust anyone, she can still work with them and use them to her benefit. This is exactly the same as how Littlefinger et al. operate.

Oh, I forgot about that, thanks for clearing it up. You're right too, she's not that much different than anyone else in the series in her 'paranoia'. In fact, though her reasons for wanting the Iron Throne ( family and security) are not the greatest, I can't think of anyone in the series with better motivations. Others are after power, glory etc. after all, and do not have the compassion for the common people that she does.

On a side note, Aegon is related to Dany and wants to marry her. I see this as no different than Jon only Dany will marry someone with a legitimate stronger claim than her.

This is true: the aunt-nephew incest (and other forms of it) is certainly normalized in the series. Its obviously not something that is acceptable in our world, but in a believable fantasy setting, where modern genetics are unknown ( and perhaps don't even apply), it does follow from the text.

In fact, slavery, rape , misogyny and feudalism are not acceptable in our world too - and I certainly find these things just disgusting as I find incest. But when we read ASOIAF ( or any fiction), we as readers agree to suspend our modern assumptions are prejudices to enter the world that the author creates.

To me, what matters in a good story is if the author creates a world that is believable, that has certain rules and codes of conduct, certain cultural practices and religion etc - and then derives the plot from it. So if the characters' actions fit in with the constraints of the culture, if its believable based on the character's personality, and if its well written - this is what makes a good story. And I think that after weighing the evidence from the books, Jon/Dany is likely, fits in with the norms of the world that GRRM created, and can advance the plot. Of course, this is just my opinion :)

[Whatever]

Did you read the description of the Unsullied "training"? Most of the slavers in Slavers Bay are evil charicatures (just look at Tyrion's description of the Yunkai'i army), but the Astapori "masters" take the cake for unparalleled cruelty. For the matter, what about those chapters where slaves were made by the Dothraki or the Ironborn? The association slavery=evil in the books has everything to do with the way those things are described in the books, and it does imply that Dothraki and Ironborn culture are pretty evil, and that especially Astapor is a most vile society.

I see you don't get my point. The Unsullied were trained that way, they were ALWAYS trained that way. The people who trained them did so because they were raised seeing their parents do the same. You know that every time Carthagens built a city killed some firstborn babies, put them in jars and buried them so they could build they new city there and make their gods happy? This is pretty horrible, but I don't think Carthagens, as a whole, were evil. That was just their culture.

There was a very interesting post I marked but I can't find now. It basically went like this.

"Let's talk about Meerenese noble Hizned Zostark. Hizned is a guy in Meeren, and he's a wide-eyed idealist who want to change things. One day he got a job at the Pits - he didn't want it, but he accepted it anyway, because he knew he was the best guy for the job and wanted to make life better for the slavers. About one month ago, Hizned had a fight with his boss who wanted to kill a young slave girl because she was pregnant. The boss, a stupid guy called Hozbob, thought the girl was a threat because her father was a rebel slave. After hizbob decided to kill 163 children, Hizned wnt mad and resigned his job, deciding to leave Meeren. Since the pregnant slave girl eventually survived and Hizned went back to his job, happy because he had saved the life of the little girl. One day a psyco blonde came in and asked for 163 men to kill. Hizned though this was pretty stupid, because he couln't see the point in revenge, and asked to the other Meerenese nobles to try to save his friend Hizbob. The Meerenese agreed that Hizbob was a big fish, and decided to have Hizned killed, because he was an annoing idealist, as well as other 162 guys whom the Important People didn't like.

So Hizned died a horrible death, much to the grief of his wife, Qacat, and his 6 children."

Now, right isn't always on one side only

[Wouter]

I see you don't get my point. The Unsullied were trained that way, they were ALWAYS trained that way.

All the more reason for Dany to put a stop to this incredible (actually over-the-top, the way Martin wrote) cruelty. I applaud her for burning the "masters".

You know that every time Carthagens built a city killed some firstborn babies, put them in jars and buried them so they could build they new city there and make their gods happy? This is pretty horrible, but I don't think Carthagens, as a whole, were evil. That was just their culture.

That's just horrible, and "just their culture" is not an excuse or makes it any less horrible. I'm not a cultural relativist; it's not OK to kill babies because it is a cultural thing; such a culture is vile and this aspect at least should be rejected by any sane (wo)man.

[Whatever]

All the more reason for Dany to put a stop to this incredible (actually over-the-top, the way Martin wrote) cruelty. I applaud her for burning the "masters".

That's just horrible, and "just their culture" is not an excuse or makes it any less horrible. I'm not a cultural relativist; it's not OK to kill babies because it is a cultural thing; such a culture is vile and this aspect at least should be rejected by any sane (wo)man.

As a moder person, I don't like it. You say the Master's treatment of the unsullied is horrible. By whose standars? Yours. You say you're not a culture relativist - well, you should be. Even when somebody does something horrible, we should always try to understand WHY.

But you really should try to put yourself in their shoes - what if you got killed for having done something you didn't even think was wrong?

Let's make another, incredibly stupid, example: if tomorrow an alien race come here on earth and kills you for eating beef, how would you feel? Surprised. You would say "How on earth is killing a beef a crime?" Well, it turns donw that beefs are actually a sentient race. We just don't know this because we can't understand them.

(I know it's stupid, please let's not start talking about beefs. It's just a freakin example)

PS: i like how you're saying I'm insane. i'd like to think I'm open minded. i don't go around killing people in my free time, but I try to understand people's reason, even when I don't approve them

EDIT: What I'm trying to say is that Dany shouldn't have killed them just because she though they were wrong (I know, they were, I also read their POV, and I know that she didn't think about the reason why she was having them killed while she did that - It basically looked like a cheap trick to not pay them) She should have tried to talk to them, changer their minds and THEN killed them, if she felt like doing it

[brashcandy]

Oh, I forgot about that, thanks for clearing it up. You're right too, she's not that much different than anyone else in the series in her 'paranoia'. In fact, though her reasons for wanting the Iron Throne ( family and security) are not the greatest, I can't think of anyone in the series with better motivations. Others are after power, glory etc. after all, and do not have the compassion for the common people that she does.

She's definitely not paranoid. For an example of a true paranoid mad Queen, look no further than Cersei; and for someone who is obsessed about a prophecy, see Stannis Baratheon. Dany is actually quite rational, and she doesn't have the kind of vices and weaknesses that crippled the reigns of Kings like Robert and Joffrey.

I think Dany started out wanting the Iron Throne for family and security, but I do think now, especially at the end of ADWD, that she realises her mission is greater and that she has a larger purpose to fulfill. In her final chapter when she was delirious, she has the "conversation" with Jorah where she thinks of how she just wanted to be a young girl and watch her trees grow. I do think that if her conquest and settlement of Meereen had been peaceful, she would have remained there and considered it her home.

However, despite her best intentions, it does seem as though something is calling her back to Westeros as "home" is constantly out of reach. She never felt truly at peace in Meereen, and I don't think it's a coincidence that she was sold into a nomadic culture that wanders throughout the land without ever settling in one place.

Dany has a lot to offer Westeros, and I think she is no longer in search of that "security". She seems now to have fully accepted the challenge of being a dragon, and has embraced her destiny in this role. Standing next to Drogon at the end of the chapter is symbolic of the common purpose and unity between them, and I think Dany is set to be a much more authoritative, decisive leader in the future.

I see you don't get my point. The Unsullied were trained that way, they were ALWAYS trained that way. The people who trained them did so because they were raised seeing their parents do the same. You know that every time Carthagens built a city killed some firstborn babies, put them in jars and buried them so they could build they new city there and make their gods happy? This is pretty horrible, but I don't think Carthagens, as a whole, were evil. That was just their culture.

Surely you're not suggesting that these men should be absolved of their heinous crimes because that's the way it's ALWAYS been? These people were subjecting these young boys to torture all for the purpose of turning them into elite soldiers. It doesn't matter if they were raised seeing it done by their parents and are merely carrying on tradition. They know that it is wrong and yet they persist in it and actually seem to glorify in what they do. It is sick, evil and perverted, and Dany was right to end it.

As a moder person, I don't like it. You say the Master's treatment of the unsullied is horrible. By whose standars? Yours. You say you're not a culture relativist - well, you should be. Even when somebody does something horrible, we should always try to understand WHY.

But you really should try to put yourself in their shoes - what if you got killed for having done something you didn't even think was wrong?

Let's make another, incredibly stupid, example: if tomorrow an alien race come here on earth and kills you for eating beef, how would you feel? Surprised. You would say "How on earth is killing a beef a crime?" Well, it turns donw that beefs are actually a sentient race. We just don't know this because we can't understand them.

(I know it's stupid, please let's not start talking about beefs. It's just a freakin example)

PS: i like how you're saying I'm insane. i'd like to think I'm open minded. i don't go around killing people in my free time, but I try to understand people's reason, even when I don't approve them

This has nothing to do with being a modern reader. Lots of atrocities go on in our world today under the banner of "cultural practices" and we are enlightened enough to know that it isn't right. Some African cultures practice female genital circumcision, so that women's sex drive will be reduced and they are somehow "cleansed" as a result. Most people in the world recognize that this is terrible mutilation and it should be stopped. Regardless of whether it has been going on for centuries it is still a violation of a woman's body and rights.

As for the example with the beef and aliens, you're right, it was a silly example and not at all relevant to what is being discussed here. Of course it would be outrageous to kill someone for eating something that they didn't know was sacred in your part of the world. Hindus see the cow as sacred too, but if they were to walk into a steak restaurant in another country and start shooting up the place they would be very wrong. The point is that what was happening to the Unsullied was systematic torture. These were young slave boys who were never given a choice in what was happening to them, and abused because they were chattel.

[Whatever]

Surely you're not suggesting that these men should be absolved of their heinous crimes because that's the way it's ALWAYS been?

I'm suggesting what I've been suggesting for the past two hours. People should be given the possibility to understand why they're wring before being killed.

.As for the example with the beef and aliens, you're right, it was a silly example and not at all relevant to what is being discussed here.

It was actually relevant, you know. It was about explaining people why what they're doing is wrong before punishing them. Let me do a more fitting example, then. Everybody knows that killing people is wrong, but some cultures (who were AGAINST killing) have been killing in name of religions (human sacrifices were quite popular until 700 years ago). Before killing whole populations, i guess somebody should try to explain them why what they're doing is awful.

Get my point now?

[brashcandy]

I'm suggesting what I've been suggesting for the past two hours. People should be given the possibility to understand why they're wring before being killed.

It was actually relevant, you know. It was about explaining people why what they're doing is wrong before punishing them. Let me do a more fitting example, then. Everybody knows that killing people is wrong, but some cultures (who were AGAINST killing) have been killing in name of religions (human sacrifices were quite popular until 700 years ago). Before killing whole populations, i guess somebody should try to explain them why what they're doing is awful.

Get my point now?

I got your point, but you're missing the larger picture. This wasn't even part of a cultural practice - not that it would be a mitigating factor, but still. The Unsullied were SLAVE boys that were being ritually dehumanized to further the objectives of their masters. If you buy into the belief that simply explaining to these men that what they were doing was wrong was going to make any bit of a difference then you're awfully naive. Masters abuse their slaves for profit, and what was happening to the Unsullied was the one of worst experiences that some slave boys had to endure.

[Wouter]

I think Dany explained it quite nicely to the "masters", that what they were doing was awful, and in the only language they would actually understand.

The idea that Dany could just have a nice chat with them, explain that training unsullied isn't OK and they should give it up, and they would nod and listen to her is quirte perplexing. A shock therapy was needed, here.

[Whatever]

I brought up this thing of Dany killing the slavers to point out that:

1)What Daenerys did to the Good Masters WAS cheating. She told them she was going to play according to their rules (buying slaves) and then she killed them. She didn't FREE the Unsullied, as somebody said, she told them "I BOUGHT you" (thus putting herself on the same levels of the Masters) and then telling them to kill the Masters (suddently changing the rules). She might have freeded them later, but they killed the Masters because she, as their owner, ordered them to. And while she had the slavers killed, she didn't think she was doing it because the were bad people and so on.. she only did it.. because she felt like doing it, I guess. Buying slaves is the reason why she went to Astapor in the first place - she might have changed her mind later, but she wasn't always "against" slavery as some posters seem to imply. She didn't think that her how handmaiden Doreh was a slave, or that she had been sold by Viserys until she came to Astapor.

If you buy into the belief that simply explaining to these men that what they were doing was wrong was going to make any bit of a difference then you're awfully naive.

I actually think that you are the one who's being naive and missing the larger picture.

2)I started that whole thing of the cultural diversity to point out that Daenerys CAN'T expect to change the whole culture of Slavers's bay, a culture that has been existing for thousands of years just because she says so. She can't come into a city and have hundred people killed, without knowing who were the people she was killing. And THIS is where you guys are being naive and so on, judging a whole culture "horrible" and "awful" just because they own slaves. Flash news: George Washington owned slaves, so did Julius Caesar, Alexander the Great and all of your ancestors, if you go far enough in your family tree

I hope I made myslef clear, If I didn't let's finish this slave thing now.. there are plenty more of Dany-related topics to argue about :D

[brashcandy]

I'm not so sure the Unsullied were merely "following orders" when Dany told them to kill their masters. I think they wanted to kill them, and Dany's order was simply the trigger for a gun that was already fully loaded. One of the most pitiful things about the Unsullied is that contrary to the Masters' design - they obviously do still think in their own way, and have desires like normal men, except of course, they cannot perform like normal men. Stalwart Shield's case is one of the most heartbreaking stories of the series, and perfectly illustrates the misery that the Unsullied endured. Humans cannot be turned into machines and robots, stripped of their freedom and dignity, and it is no surprise that this lesson is what sparks Dany's crusade against slavery.

[Wouter]

I brought up this thing of Dany killing the slavers to point out that:

1)What Daenerys did to the Good Masters WAS cheating.

Cheating the "good masters" is perfectly fine in my book, especially given that it lead to the end of unsullied training (Ok, there was an attempted restart but it didn't last long).

2)I started that whole thing of the cultural diversity to point out that Daenerys CAN'T expect to change the whole culture of Slavers's bay, a culture that has been existing for thousands of years just because she says so. S

I don't give a damn about the Astapori culture (which is sickening, vile), and neither did Dany (or Barristan), so it seems. Anyway, Dany did change the Astapori culture in the same way the Romans changed the Carthage one, it seems. You can expect change (and get it) if you're willing to use extreme violence, which was quite justified in the case of Astapor. There will be no more unsullied after the last one of the current batch dies, and that's a good thing.

I also note that Dany was much more diplomatic with the less extreme Meereen and even with Yunkai.

[David Selig]

Wait, you think that maybe the Astapor slavers didn't know that the method they used to train Unsillied was horrendous and might've stopped it if only this was explained to them? Seriously? Of course they knew it was wrong morally to brainwash, castrate and kill in training thousands of children, they just didn't care since it made them rich.

[Black Crow]

We can obviously argue forever on the ethics and effectiveness of Dany's attempt to stamp out slavery out east, but what does she really have to offer Westeros?

The dragons might turn out to be useful if the White Walkers come knocking on the gates of King's Landing, though as I've pointed out before the pyromancers seem to have worked out a pretty good formula for wildfire so they aren't going to be indispensible.

Then what?

[ghost the direwolf]

Nothing really IMO except the fact that she is a Targ and that the throne belong to her ancestor so to her so she says. She will bring peace but Aegon as well If the major houses want to follow any of them.

To be quite honest I think like you she has nothing to offer. unless someone convince me of the contrary.