(ADwD Spoilers) Dany the Mad Queen

[The Mother of The Others]

I think like you she has nothing to offer. unless someone convince me of the contrary.

She's hot! And Varys is so bald! So bald! So she should so palm his scalp! And this thread is so serious! And she keeps the story interesting! Until recently! So why wouldn't you want her peanut butter in Varys' chocolate! In short, !

[dark sister]

I have two more pages of responses to read but I'm going to just jump in here with what I think are relevant points:

First, and this has been mentioned time and again in the series, even in the Westerosi wiki of Ice and Fire:

"Since the Dance [of the Dragons], House Targaryen has practiced a highly modified version of agnatic primogeniture, placing female claimants in the line of succession behind all possible male ones, even collateral relations." This does not bode well for her becoming the first Queen *ruler*. She could be queen beside a Targ/other king, though.

While at first Dany was doing her damndest to return to Westeros and rule, she became preoccupied with Qaithe's advice (whom we don't know is good, bad, grey, or self-serving at this point). She was granted an astonishing boon in the House of the Undying, though. After Drogon left the place in ruins, she never really tried to interpret or figure out what these visions MEANT. If I were here, I would AT LEAST have written them down and ruminated over them, maybe even asked Selmy about them -- at least the ones related to people dressed in fine raiment with silvery-gold hair and purple eyes.

SPEAKING OF SER BARRISTAN SELMY!! This guy is undoubtedly gallant and honorable, but he is NOT a leader. He is actually the very definition of a follower. His value in the series is that he has served three Targaryen kings, and cast light on both events from the past and the Westerosi lords who Dany knows nothing about. Also, he says he "sees no taint" in Dany, but later on tells her that Aerys was a promising king in his youth, who GRADUALLY GREW WORSE as time went on...this is exactly like Dany's character development. Additionally, he is the very definition of a flip-flopper: I don't think it should be allowed for a man to be a White Sword for one king, then for another, of a different bloodline (ok the Baratheons have Targ blood, so what). Then, he flops again, but ONLY AFTER being dismissed from Joffrey's service. He seemed to have no problem that his new boy king was a violent psychopath, because, here's the clincher: it is in his nature to be obedient. This trait is deeply ingrained in him because he has served as a Kingsguard for so long. To conclude with Selmy, I have nothing against the man: of course he is the way he is, he's a knight, not a thinker like Tyrion, and he's a WHITE knight at that (he "hears everything and sees nothing").

Aurubin made a great point with Tyrion and Ben Plumm. With each of Dany's three betrayals, she never saw what was right in front of her face: in AGOT, her POV said "'She will do no harm.' Dany felt she could trust this old, plain-faced woman with the flat nose..." Note how she seems to trust her because she is plain, not beautiful, but never even looks at her eyes to see the malice hidden there. The same with Plumm. His smile never reached his eyes. With Jorah, I would not be so quick to trust one who sold people into slavery, then fled justice. I won't say that she should have seen his betrayal coming, but she could have been a little less trusting.

One thing I think is important is that the Targaryens have "passed the sentence and swung the sword". That is SO important to one's character development. One reason why I think Egg became such a good man as Aegon V is because he rode with Dunk as his squire. At the end of "The Hedge Knight", Duncan observes to Maekar that he bet "Aerion's meat was always rare and bloody", and that "Daeron never had to sleep under a hedge". Maekar, whom Dunk later observes as a man "proud and full of scorn", wisely takes this advice and sends his youngest son to learn about the real world. While Dany certainly lived in the real world, her brother filled her ear with poisoned words and speeches about their "birth right". This obviously affected her deeply (esp. since we absorb deeply things that we hear as children) and I think she is becoming more and more like Viserys as far as feeling privileged. Notice how he would ask her "you don't want to wake the dragon, do you?" and now she uses the exact same phrase when she talks about people displeasing her. That's not a good sign.

Also, she's had some strange thoughts/ideas that seem a bit touched, imo..."fire cannot kill a dragon", when Viserys is crowned? Um, yes it can, he's not ACTUALLY a dragon. (The way she talks reminds me a lot of Aerion, as someone else pointed out, thinking she's almost a dragon in human form.) Walking into the funeral pyre? Her hallucinations at the end of ADWD? I'm not sure if these things are prophetic, magical, or whatever, but apparently magic had "died out" until the dragons were born, so it seems kind of queer. There are other examples of her strange thinking, but I'd have to pore through all the books again.

All in all, I think the worst mistake she's made is spurning Dorne's support. She should have realized by the time Quentyn came that Mereen would never accept her, but she cited not being able to break her betrothal as the reason she couldn't leave. That didn't stop her from burning the slavers in Astapors, though, when she had promised them a dragon. Quentyn could have been her ticket out of Meereen to start the conquest of Westeros, with the support of Dorne and all its spears, a strong marriage alliance, but I think it all came down to the face that Quentyn was not as handsome as Hizdahr and her lover Daario. She even thinks to herself that she wishes it were Gerris Drinkwater who was the heir to Dorne! To me this speaks of a woman who is driven by lust instead of shrewd decision-making. All of you are now going to reply "she's a hormonal teenager omg!!" but how many times does Martin have to say that in the medieval period, there WAS no such thing as adolescence? Dany is more immature at 17 than Jon or Robb were at 14, and that is because of her upbringing, not because she is a teenager. I support this theory that Dany is going downhill much the same way her father did, but I am NOT a Dany hater -- in fact, I hope she has some sort of revelation before it's too late. On the other hand, I, like Martin, love a good tragedy ;)

[dark sister]

edit: One thing I think is important is that the Targs have NEVER "passed the sentence and swung the sword".

[dark sister]

Here's an unrelated and yet hard thought, filled with multi-generational perversion! :

What if the visitations from Quaithe aren't unique to Daenerys but were suffered by Aerys too as part of the Targaryen curse down through the ages? What if the "Targaryen madness" trait is really brought about by foreign interests broadcasting their voices into the heads of the mad kings via magic candles? What if Quaithe is just the beginning of the process and more voices will join in, meaning Aerys was messed with much more by the time he went certifiably nuts? Ancient enemies of Valyria haven't forgotten their grudges and continue to hound the last surviving scions of Valyrian rule. Saucy, huh?

Haha an interesting thought. It reminds me of when Varys relates to Tyrion his experience of being gelded: "One day at Myr, a certain man came to our folly...I was in terror...but the only part of me he had need of was my manhood...he sliced me root and stem, chanting all the while. I watched him burn my manly parts on a brazier. The flames turned blue, and I heard a voice answer his call, though I did not understand the words they spoke...Yet I still dream of that night...Not of the sorceror...I dream of the voice...from the flames...was it a a god, a demon...? All I can say for a certainty is that he called it, and it answered, and since that day I have hated magic and all those who practice it." Pretty interesting, huh? Yet Dany's dragons were hatched by magic, and Qaithe undoubtedly practices magic.

There's one serious flaw in your theory, though: people who practice incest often have children and other progeny with severe mental defects. Not all Targaryens were mad, some were just weaklings or mentally deficient. However, that's why I bring up in my post how everyone seems to just inherently "trust" Qaithe and don't question her motives...when she, Pyat Pree, and Xaro met Dany for the first time in Vaes Tolorro, Pree greeted her in Dothraki, Xaro in High Valyrian, and Qaithe in the Common Tongue. That was a shrewd psychological move.

[Westrosi]

When she hears about the Harpy committed a second murder elsewhere where she knew the victim, she changes her mind about him and orders his children to be tortured in front of him. Completely against her moral code which she usually follows very closely. Except when her dragon is woken that is.

I do this that this particular moment of ADWD is significant.

[Westrosi]

I have to say I never expected to see Robb of all people given as an example of rational behaviour.

Two words - Jeyne Westerling. Dany has never done anywhere near as irrational and dumb.

Anyway, for me Dany is pretty rational and reasonable most of the time, she has her bad moments, but this is only normal given what she's had to go through and her young age. No sense of madness as far as I can see.

I'm confused, I thought it was strongly implied that Jeyne's mother, a granddaughter of maggy the frog and likely inheritor of her skills, gave Robb a love potion when he was recovering from his wound, which made him fall in love with Jeyne. I think it's a bit unfair to blame him for being irrational if he was under the influence of sorcery/potion.

[Westrosi]

How many of you remember the stupid things you talked yourself into when you were 13 14 15? The world is full of rainbows and unicorns and magic. But then your decisions cave in on you.

But this is not modern times, when a pre/teen or teen has to worry about high school or going to the mall. Most Westerosi/Essosians begin to earn their living/work at a young age and have to be independent at a much earlier age. We can't compare it to our own teenage experience, I think.

[Westrosi]

The point about Dany believing she is genetically different and therefore immune to disease could potentially be used to justify her superiority to the common people, but I think its clear from the books that Dany herself doesn't actually believe that she is. She is quite compassionate, even if she often doesn't find the best outlets for it.

My problem is that she believes she MIGHT be immune, but takes a risk on her behalf... fine. Not so fine for the other people she takes with her out in to the ranks of the ill, or her own people in Meereen when she and her companion being the flux into the city.

[JP Dayne]

I'm confused, I thought it was strongly implied that Jeyne's mother, a granddaughter of maggy the frog and likely inheritor of her skills, gave Robb a love potion when he was recovering from his wound, which made him fall in love with Jeyne. I think it's a bit unfair to blame him for being irrational if he was under the influence of sorcery/potion.

Not to mention she has Lysene heritage. Those girls sure seem to know how their way around a man - with or without potion

I'm actually surprised people still dont take that for granted. It's borderline explicit that the westerlings saw an opportunity to rise to greatness by associating themselves with the Young Wolf who was winning the war against the Lannisters. Also remember our dear greywind didnt like them from the start...

[dreamcatcher]

Huh? What could they possibly tell her that Barristan couldn't? They don't even know much about these events, if anything at all. They know there was a rebellion and probably that Aerys had Brandon and Rickard Stark killed. Bran believes that Rhaegar abducted and raped Lyanna! So in Dany's place I wouldn't put too much trust in what the Stark kids tell me. I didn't get the feeling that Ned talked all that much about Mad King Aerys and his family. He probably didn't want to draw attention. The Reed kids were certainly surprised that Bran hadn't ever heard about the Harrenhal events.

If there's a person living who would be able to tell about the past events, it would be Jaime, none of the Stark kids. And he was at the center of action, so Daenerys would probably be inclined to summarily execute him, instead of listening to him.

TYRION, Tyrion will tell her. That's why Barristan & co don't tell her anything, so she can get slapped in the face with Tyrion's frankness and left without words. He already did it to Jon (the grumkins and snarks, thieves and rapists in the NW speech), to Aegon (You're naive, what if Dany doesn't like you, etc), now it's Dany turn to be Tyrion-ed :)

[Lord Damian]

Dany has yet to learn of the truth behind her family history as rulers of Westeros and especially why her family was overthrown and she had to grow up in exile. When Ser Barristan tried to tell her of how everyone finally realized her father was mad she cut him off in an instant. She needs to learn and understand from the correct perspective of the rebellion's participants.

[The Lost Lord]

Imagine if, at the end of the series, Dany has seen the Undying's prophecies of three mounts, three fires, husbands, slain lies, and a treason for gold play out perfectly. All that's left is the treason for love. Who is it? When will it happen? That seems like a situation that could drive someone mad...

[PatrickStormborn]

I have two more pages of responses to read but I'm going to just jump in here with what I think are relevant points:

First, and this has been mentioned time and again in the series, even in the Westerosi wiki of Ice and Fire:

"Since the Dance [of the Dragons], House Targaryen has practiced a highly modified version of agnatic primogeniture, placing female claimants in the line of succession behind all possible male ones, even collateral relations." This does not bode well for her becoming the first Queen *ruler*. She could be queen beside a Targ/other king, though.

So Daenerys - a woman with three dragons (and the only dragonrider in the world at this point) - cannot sit the Iron Throne? In my opinion the series will end with the first Queen of Westeros on the Iron Throne (although I'm not 100% sure it's going to be Daenerys; it could very easily be Shireen).

One thing I think is important is that the Targaryens have "passed the sentence and swung the sword". That is SO important to one's character development. One reason why I think Egg became such a good man as Aegon V is because he rode with Dunk as his squire. At the end of "The Hedge Knight", Duncan observes to Maekar that he bet "Aerion's meat was always rare and bloody", and that "Daeron never had to sleep under a hedge". Maekar, whom Dunk later observes as a man "proud and full of scorn", wisely takes this advice and sends his youngest son to learn about the real world. While Dany certainly lived in the real world, her brother filled her ear with poisoned words and speeches about their "birth right". This obviously affected her deeply (esp. since we absorb deeply things that we hear as children) and I think she is becoming more and more like Viserys as far as feeling privileged. Notice how he would ask her "you don't want to wake the dragon, do you?" and now she uses the exact same phrase when she talks about people displeasing her. That's not a good sign.

Also, she's had some strange thoughts/ideas that seem a bit touched, imo..."fire cannot kill a dragon", when Viserys is crowned? Um, yes it can, he's not ACTUALLY a dragon. (The way she talks reminds me a lot of Aerion, as someone else pointed out, thinking she's almost a dragon in human form.) Walking into the funeral pyre? Her hallucinations at the end of ADWD? I'm not sure if these things are prophetic, magical, or whatever, but apparently magic had "died out" until the dragons were born, so it seems kind of queer. There are other examples of her strange thinking, but I'd have to pore through all the books again.

All in all, I think the worst mistake she's made is spurning Dorne's support. She should have realized by the time Quentyn came that Mereen would never accept her, but she cited not being able to break her betrothal as the reason she couldn't leave. That didn't stop her from burning the slavers in Astapors, though, when she had promised them a dragon. Quentyn could have been her ticket out of Meereen to start the conquest of Westeros, with the support of Dorne and all its spears, a strong marriage alliance, but I think it all came down to the face that Quentyn was not as handsome as Hizdahr and her lover Daario. She even thinks to herself that she wishes it were Gerris Drinkwater who was the heir to Dorne! To me this speaks of a woman who is driven by lust instead of shrewd decision-making. All of you are now going to reply "she's a hormonal teenager omg!!" but how many times does Martin have to say that in the medieval period, there WAS no such thing as adolescence? Dany is more immature at 17 than Jon or Robb were at 14, and that is because of her upbringing, not because she is a teenager. I support this theory that Dany is going downhill much the same way her father did, but I am NOT a Dany hater -- in fact, I hope she has some sort of revelation before it's too late. On the other hand, I, like Martin, love a good tragedy ;)

Dany's "fire cannot kill a dragon" line is just her coming to realise that her brother is weak. He was shouting "I am the dragon" before he died, and yet he died just like normal men do. It was at this point that she realised that her brother wasn't the superhuman he's been claiming, and that she's the last hope to restore her family's throne.

I don't think she made a mistake by refusing Quentyn. He came for fire and blood, and yet she saw his reluctance around dragons. And just having the support of Dorne would mean nothing. Doran himself knows that there isn't enough Dornish spears for a war. Furthermore, if she had've just left Meereen all of her hard work would have been undone. Her freedmen would be put back in their chains or killed. So I think it's fair to say she did the right thing.

If Dany was going to become a mad queen, she would have left Meereen in ruins and headed straight for Illyrio and Westeros. But she didn't. She stayed to help her people.

[Black Crow]

Hitler wanted to help his people too and look where that ended up.

[Whatever]

If Dany was going to become a mad queen, she would have left Meereen in ruins and headed straight for Illyrio and Westeros. But she didn't. She stayed to help her people.

How are the Meerenesi Dany's people?

Cheating the "good masters" is perfectly fine in my book, especially given that it lead to the end of unsullied training (Ok, there was an attempted restart but it didn't last long).....I don't give a damn about the Astapori culture (which is sickening, vile)

I got that y'all don't, but you're not Dany. Dany is the one who really should care, because she wants to rule them. Got this? If she doesn't, she's nothing more than a tyrant. She refuses to accept this, so she's a hypocrite.

She's not trying to understand the people she rules, she's just dressing up with a tokar and spurning their traditions. (I'm not talking about slavery here. I'm talking about the people who are stupid enough to want to fight in the pits - just let them. I'm talking about Dany's "I won't wash my husband's feet". What was the point of that?)

Then what?

Well, I hope they die. Or at least they should go away from Westeros. I don't want to see Dany (or anybody else) on the throne because she gots dragons (which is exaclty what happened in Meeren). She should rule because she's a capable ruler, not because can rost the competition.

I just don't like the dragons, i can't help it, and I hope somebody will finally understand how freaking dangerous they are.

SPEAKING OF SER BARRISTAN SELMY!! This guy is undoubtedly gallant and honorable, but he is NOT a leader. He is actually the very definition of a follower.

Amen to this. Selmy is IMO one the most overrated characters in ASOIAF.

Aurubin made a great point with Tyrion and Ben Plumm. With each of Dany's three betrayals, she never saw what was right in front of her face: in AGOT, her POV said "'She will do no harm.' Dany felt she could trust this old, plain-faced woman with the flat nose..." Note how she seems to trust her because she is plain, not beautiful, but never even looks at her eyes to see the malice hidden there. The same with Plumm. His smile never reached his eyes. With Jorah, I would not be so quick to trust one who sold people into slavery, then fled justice. I won't say that she should have seen his betrayal coming, but she could have been a little less trusting.

I agree with you, alhough I don't think Jorah was one of the betrayers. Neither was Mirri, IMO. Maybe Ben, IDK. I think that, if Dany will ever end up with Jon, he will be one. I also think that, if Lenore = Ashara, Barristan will be another.

All in all, I think the worst mistake she's made is spurning Dorne's support. She should have realized by the time Quentyn came that Mereen would never accept her, but she cited not being able to break her betrothal as the reason she couldn't leave. That didn't stop her from burning the slavers in Astapors, though, when she had promised them a dragon. Quentyn could have been her ticket out of Meereen to start the conquest of Westeros, with the support of Dorne and all its spears, a strong marriage alliance, but I think it all came down to the face that Quentyn was not as handsome as Hizdahr and her lover Daario.

This. Serioulsy, wasn't there a point where was basically acknowledged that had Quentyn looked differentlyl, Daenerys would have taken his offer more seriously? She lost Dorne forever, IMO.

[David Selig]

I'm confused, I thought it was strongly implied that Jeyne's mother, a granddaughter of maggy the frog and likely inheritor of her skills, gave Robb a love potion when he was recovering from his wound, which made him fall in love with Jeyne. I think it's a bit unfair to blame him for being irrational if he was under the influence of sorcery/potion.

That's just a theory with little evidence behind it. Why use magic to explain something when good old stupidity and Robb being a horny 16 year old will suffice?

[voodooqueen126]

That's just a theory with little evidence behind it. Why use magic to explain something when good old stupidity and Robb being a horny 16 year old will suffice?

I think actually Maggy the Frog was Lharzeen, the same ethnicity as Mirri Maz Druur.

[PatrickStormborn]

How are the Meerenesi Dany's people?

She freed the slaves and conquered Meereen. They're now her people. She has to protect them from the slavers who would put them back in chains if she left.

Hitler wanted to help his people too and look where that ended up.

I don't care if this was supposed to be in jest, but how PATHETIC. Comparing Daenerys to HITLER? I'm not even going to comment on how stupid (or offensive) this is.

[Whatever]

She freed the slaves and conquered Meereen. They're now her people. She has to protect them from the slavers who would put them back in chains if she left.

So, when you talk about "her people" you mean the slaves and not the city she's now ruling?

Because if you mean the Meerenese people as a whole, you probably missed this

I got that y'all don't [want to understand Meerenes culture ]but you're not Dany. Dany is the one who really should care, because she wants to rule them. Got this? If she doesn't, she's nothing more than a tyrant. She refuses to accept this, so she's a hypocrite.

She's not trying to understand the people she rules, she's just dressing up with a tokar and spurning their traditions. (I'm not talking about slavery here. I'm talking about the people who are stupid enough to want to fight in the pits - just let them. I'm talking about Dany's "I won't wash my husband's feet". What was the point of that?)

They aren't her people, because she refuses to understand them. they will never be her people anyway.

[PatrickStormborn]

So, when you talk about "her people" you mean the slaves and not the city she's now ruling?

Because if you mean the Meerenese people as a whole, you probably missed this

They aren't her people, because she refuses to understand them. they will never be her people anyway.

The freed slaves are her people, and she's the Queen of the Meereenese. The Queen of England doesn't have the same culture as many in England, but it doesn't mean that the English et al. aren't her people.