The Stark kids and their "darker" education

[Ladywhiskers]

I agree, I love Sansa too, and I think she "will be a force to be reckoned with." I can't wait to see what happens with her.

The valonquar would impact Cersei more if it was one of her own brothers, I agree. But the younger queen would impact Cersei most if it was Arya. I have always liked the idea of Sansa being the YQ, but Cersei does not veiw her as a rival, so I wasn't sure it fit right. But if you look at Arya being so similar to the woman who stole both of the men (Rhaegar and King Robert) Cersei wanted to marry, then that fits for being a impact to Cersei in her mind. It has to effect Cersei, and Lyanna/Arya is the only woman Cersei would think more beautiful than her.

This sheds a different light, too, on Arya kissing Balerion the cat. Someone had referred to him as "the real king" of the Red Keep. The kiss there might actually be foreshadowing Arya connecting with Jaime Lannister, taking him away from Cersei, and then eventually making him pay for his crimes. (Although it could be argued he's already been taken away.)

Arya as YQ would have an even bigger impact than Danaerys.

[FanTasy]

Hmm ... Arya Queen? I know Westeros is not Disneyland and people who are flawless are hard to find, but it would be nice to have a queen on the Iron Throne who has not killed anyone. Having Arya in a seat of power with all her dark experiences ... personally I don't think this a nice idea. And I seriously doubt she would accept to be in second place.

ETA As I stated in an earlier post on another thread there is some reference that if Cersei's prophecy comes true Arya could be the one who killes her. I don't see her physically strangle her, she would find an ingenious way.

[Gurkhal]

I kind of disagree that Arya would work well as the Younger Queen. To me it seems that the YQ should be some women who have some kind of deeper connection or history with Cersei and I feel that Arya's connection and symbolic differences with Cersei arn't as telling as Sansa's, Margaery's, Daenerys' or for that matter even Myrcella. I guess it mostly comes down to that with a queen I expect a more of noblewoman scenario rather than an action girl as I see it as being to far removed from Cersei's character to make much an impact for the reader and it would've felt a bit like if Tywin was killed by a stray arrow during some battle or if Robb was killed by falling off his horse - a death that could be fitting for a minor character but I wouldn't want a major character to go out way. You can argue that Arya has a connection with Cersei due to the events during the first book and the following books but I kind of feel that Arya's problem is more against the Lannister army or possibly House as a political-military unite rather than against Cersei as a person with whom Arya has only limited conntact. Therefor I would see that Sansa or Margaery are more appropriete candidates due to their, as I see it, more personal antagonism towards Cersei.

I could also see that Daenerys could work as a YQ as well as Myrcella if you really want to make things unexpected and I personally wouldn't really mind that it that much. But Arya, no, it feels like there are more appropriete characters that could topple Cersei if she indeed needs to be toppled.

[FanTasy]

I kind of disagree that Arya would work well as the Younger Queen. To me it seems that the YQ should be some women who have some kind of deeper connection or history with Cersei and I feel that Arya's connection and symbolic differences with Cersei arn't as telling as Sansa's,

:agree: I don't see anything that would make Arya a queen, maybe she will be called the 'queen of death'. Cersei was always on Arya's list though and she seems methodical :crying:

[Melifeather]

:agree:

I think you could say the Stark children are on different paths than they thought they would be. Like Bran wanted to be a knight and now he can't walk. Sansa wanted the fairy tale and now she has to be a 'player'. I think Arya could very well end up being queen material. It is probably the last thing she ever wanted. With all of the training she has recieved coupled with her flowering she will be quite the strong woman. She has learned patience, self-control, discepline, etc. from Syrio's training. But I think people underestimate her training from the faceless men, she will get more than being an awsome assassin. The training could be better than the maesters. We know she has learned about death, poisons, potions, lauguages, history, etc. Then there are things she aspired to learn on her own, maybe utilizing different training. The ability she has achieved with warging on her own is quite a feat aswell. Add in the fact that she has strong claims of her own to Winterfell, the Dreadfort, and the Hornwood lands. Also I imagine she will be very beautiful when she flowers, I hope at a young age, she will look like Lyanna. Now who is the one person in the world who Queen Cersei is/was jealous of? I think this fact could make Arya the younger queen and the valonquar, because she was a tomboy. Let's not forget her Gendry can reforge valyrian steel so Arya could be AA. Also she can take anyones face so that could cause some problems, maybe she could take dany's face and with warging be the mother of dragons. Sorry, I get carried away with Queen Arya.

Queen Arya!!! :commie:

I love Arya too, but its my opinion that Arya will continue down the path of the Faceless Men and really become "no one". Her personality is one in that she wants to prove she can do this. I see her becoming an assassin and playing an important part in killing off someone important. I could even imagine a scenerio where she kills Sansa. It would really be a test of her training as she's not supposed to kill who she wants, but rather those chosen by the people that pay for the requests.

Sansa's power is just like Littlefinger's. It lies in her ability to use information. The first time she used it, it went badly for her--she lost Lady and alienated Arya in order to keep the engagement she thought she wanted. It was a rookie mistake.

The second time she used it, it saved her life. She weighed all the options, and sealed Joffrey's fate by telling Lady Olenna the truth of the matter. Sansa is interesting to me because she is holding her own and surviving in the game, against enormous odds. Just as Arya is learning the ways of assassins and Faceless men, Sansa is learning how to do what Varys and Littlefinger do. At present she has no one to practice on, but Littlefinger, but talk about playing chess with the best!

She can't give in to her impulses to do things like shove Joffrey off a bridge, because that would end her story far too soon. She's obviously an end-game player, a pawn that will be queened and rule the board eventually.

I really like your comparison of Sansa to Varys and Littlefinger. I can agree with your assessment that she is being trained as a "player" of the Game of Thrones.

I agree, I love Sansa too, and I think she "will be a force to be reckoned with." I can't wait to see what happens with her.

The valonquar would impact Cersei more if it was one of her own brothers, I agree. But the younger queen would impact Cersei most if it was Arya. I have always liked the idea of Sansa being the YQ, but Cersei does not veiw her as a rival, so I wasn't sure it fit right. But if you look at Arya being so similar to the woman who stole both of the men (Rhaegar and King Robert) Cersei wanted to marry, then that fits for being a impact to Cersei in her mind. It has to effect Cersei, and Lyanna/Arya is the only woman Cersei would think more beautiful than her.

I think Jaime will end up being the valonquar. Was it Cersei or Jaime that was born first? If I remember correctly, Cersei was born first with Jaime holding onto her heel. I can see Jaime killing Cersei and then killing himself, or Brienne somehow making Jaime kill Cersei and then Brienne kills Jaime.

[Young Wolf's Vanguard]

I get the feeling that most think of the Starks as honor bound but wimpy and naive goodies and sometimes keep forgetting what needs to be done to preserve your line for 8000 years. Theon Stark waged wars during his entire rule, Brandon Ice Eyes Stark slaughtered those slavers, Willam and Artos massacred Raymun's host, some King in The North invaded Sisters - entire house is filled with mass murderers but they knew what had to be done and had balls to do it - for good of the realm and their own sake. You just can't be Baelor and expect long and peaceful life.

If retaking Winterfell takes siding wild and bloodthirsty Skagosi then Rickon will do it - fuck morale and scrupules - better Skagosi than bastard of Bolton. If getting home and avenging family takes Arya to kill without remorse - fuck it - it has to be done. If fighting others obligates Bran to wear Hodor like dirty socks - well better well-being of entire realm than one feeble-minded individual. If Jon decides to let 4000 wildlings trough the Wall - fuck it - better few stolen northern girls than 4000 wights.

Every king that ever waged war - be it defensive or offensive - had to burn few villages, exterminate few noble houses and kill few surrendering enemies. Sad but necessary. Means do not always justify causes but you can't walk trough shit and smell like roses. So - Stark kids' "darker" education - it was about fucking time. Go children and make greatgreatgreatgreatgreatgreatgreatgreatgreatgreatgreat grandfather Hungry Wolf proud.

[Melifeather]

If retaking Winterfell takes siding wild and bloodthirsty Skagosi then Rickon will do it - fuck morale and scrupules - better Skagosi than bastard of Bolton. If getting home and avenging family takes Arya to kill without remorse - fuck it - it has to be done. If fighting others obligates Bran to wear Hodor like dirty socks - well better well-being of entire realm than one feeble-minded individual. If Jon decides to let 4000 wildlings trough the Wall - fuck it - better few stolen northern girls than 4000 wights.

"wear Hodor like dirty socks"....F-YEAH! :laugh:

HODOR, HODOR, HODOOOOOR!

[Alia of the knife]

What is interesting is while honor was impotant to the Starks, Ned could have taken it to a different level, and perhaps to distinguish himself from a Brother he may have secretly resented, but still would have followed.

If Brandon,"theres nothing better than a bloodys sword," Stark would have lived, then how things went down may have looked different.

[Ice Turtle]

What is interesting is while honor was impotant to the Starks, Ned could have taken it to a different level, and perhaps to distinguish himself from a Brother he may have secretly resented, but still would have followed.

If Brandon,"theres nothing better than a bloodys sword," Stark would have lived, then how things went down may have looked different.

I always felt that Ned's honor was product of years spent wit "As high as honor" Jon Arryn rather than Stark trademark, the pack is what is important for Starks nothing more. Brandon (even if foolishly) defending his sister and trying to save his father was a true Stark. But he was too rash he missed his brothers calmness. Rickard Stark was the first one that make a mistake when he separated his children and put his ambitions before family.

Would Brandon have been a better lord, I'm not sure. Who was the best? Ned was too gentle, trusting and honorable, Brandon too wild, Lyanna too much a dreamer and I don't know if it was only years in NW but Benjen always appeared to me as too hard, he actually reminds me of men of BwB.

[Mumatil]

Dan Haggard explains well what the Stark kids are learning. They are adapting to the realities of the world, with some honor intact. He writes a good essay going over the theme of honor vs realpolitik.

Great article but the Lannister motto is "Hear Me Roar" but considering the use of that damned saying used mostly by Tyrion, it should be.

Also Catelyn wasn't completely convinced of Tyrion's guilt, she had doubts, even though she wanted the Lannisters to pay.

[Alia of the knife]

I always felt that Ned's honor was product of years spent wit "As high as honor" Jon Arryn rather than Stark trademark, the pack is what is important for Starks nothing more. Brandon (even if foolishly) defending his sister and trying to save his father was a true Stark. But he was too rash he missed his brothers calmness. Rickard Stark was the first one that make a mistake when he separated his children and put his ambitions before family.

Would Brandon have been a better lord, I'm not sure. Who was the best? Ned was too gentle, trusting and honorable, Brandon too wild, Lyanna too much a dreamer and I don't know if it was only years in NW but Benjen always appeared to me as too hard, he actually reminds me of men of BwB.

Great points.

My take-away in addition to your points was just that there also seemed to be a little more going on between Ned and Brandon.

He says it to Caitlyn about everything being meant for Brandon.

Winterfell, her, (and perhaps even Ashara's love if what we suspect is true- at least at first).

And even Cersei later throws Brandon in his face.

I think the wolf imagry is powerful, especially the "pack," but I think we may be introduced to a new dynamic underlying that.

Everyone seems caught between different emotions.

Neds loyalty, love and perhaps a bit of jealousy that Brandon was all he isn't in some areas, though Ned has better qualities on a different level.

Even a note of resentment could be detected in some of Visrys statements to Dany of Rhaegar: "if you'd been born earlier, he would have been happy in his wife," (to be debated), "and he wouldn't have needed the Stark girl."

And of course, what can be extrapalated from that, "and then none of this would have happened."

But, thats a different thread.

[Alia of the knife]

This sheds a different light, too, on Arya kissing Balerion the cat. Someone had referred to him as "the real king" of the Red Keep. The kiss there might actually be foreshadowing Arya connecting with Jaime Lannister, taking him away from Cersei, and then eventually making him pay for his crimes. (Although it could be argued he's already been taken away.)

Arya as YQ would have an even bigger impact than Danaerys.

Given the theme of "irony" that flows through the book, I'm betting that Arya will be the Queen, though it could also be by way of Aegon, (if he's real), because he would need to reunite the North and the South, as well as the rest.

Since the North is "as big as all the seven Kingdoms put together," (Robert to Ned), then that would be a big priority.

After what Sansa has been through with Joffrey, handsome Princes may no longer be on her "to do" list though she initially grew up wanting that.

And like Lyanna, Arya would rather be a Warrior, so there goes what she wants.

[Bear Grylls of Skagos]

Just wondering what Rickon learned all the while he was in Skagos.

I bet Manderly is gonna welcome him with some Frey pies too.

[Nymeria101]

I agree. They're all getting to the dark side.

But will they reunite?

I'm not so sure about that. We all know G.R.R.M's books aren't fairy tales - bad things happen, and death lies behind every corner. But we also know everything's possible. So yes, maybe they reunite and stay together as a family...or maybe they get killed. (I sincerely hope that doesn't happen )

I wish luck to all the living Starks, and I really hope they will avenge their parents and Robb.

They deserve that much.

[Jack's Smirking Revenge]

Actually, I'm hoping for the Starks to get a little darker. Don't get me wrong, I'm not meaning "evil" darker but "we are freaking badasses and you're gonna pay for what you did to my family" darker

This already happened with Arya but I can definitely see Sansa becoming "darker" like this. She won't be stabbing anybody with a sword but she can certainly become extrememly competent at the game thus harming anybody who harmed her house. I'm not sure about Bran but Rickon (if he survives and grows older) will definitley avenge his family IMO. This is one of the reason why I wish there would be a jump in the series of at least three years or so. The Starks are all much older (though Rickon is still very young) and they have all gained the skills they need to shake things up.

If you're expecting Sansa to be in your face badass then stop holding your breath, unlike Robb, Jon, and Arya, Sansa is a behind the scene player it's her powers of observation and her ability to ferret out little nuances of plans that she is learning and has learned, if you expect her to go ape shit that may only happen if she finds out what Little Finger did to her family and even then, she just may kiss the man as she drops the strangler in his drink and watch him die as she did the knight at the Hands tourney.

I think at least one of the Starks needs to be a behind the scenes player. Sansa is shaping to be this person. I can see Bran with his skills also becoming a "master of whisperers" for the Stark family. I don't know i just see the potential for the Starks to be a power house and I will be disappointed if it doesn't happen. GRRM is settting up to the family to do something big IMO.

I'm one of the few who also believe the Starks will eventually join the Others who will turn out to be much grayer and less evil than we first thought. I believe Dany will be regarded as the villain and not the hero of Westeros when she finally invade

Hmmm, I like this idea. I had some suspicions about the Others and whether they really are that evil. I can see the Starks actually uniting Westerors against the Others (if they really are that bad) or I can see them uniting with the Others. I can't see them taking a heel turn and becoming outright evil.

[kephv]

I don't know i just see the potential for the Starks to be a power house and I will be disappointed if it doesn't happen. GRRM is settting up to the family to do something big IMO.

Something huge. House Stark will be making a major come back in the following books and will kick some serious ass!

[Tooker]

If you think about it, life experience in general can be considered dark but I wouldn't consider their individual educations as bad. After all, they all got where they're at partly by their own talent and inclination. For example, Sansa was the one who helped Ned figure out the mystery of Jon Arryn's murder in GoT. Now she's scrutinizing the movements of other court players with Littlefinger.

We probably will see them make bad choices and do harm, but I read Arya's little murder prayer before she went to bed with glee. I loved it and I was totally with her! So we will probably be rooting for our Stark heroes no matter what they do. I hope we dont see them fight each other though, but that doesn't seem likely. They're still a pack after all. Even after Lady died, Sansa was still having wolf dreams, so I think that no matter what they'll all be a team.

[Lyanna Stark]

AGAIN: DO NOT MOCK PEOPLE FOR MISSPELLINGS! This is cheap, half of the people here are non native English speakers, I am sure Martin writes for everyone!

Yes, I am one of them. It takes a minimum of effort to look things up in a dictionary. In fact, you offend us non native speakers by presuming we are too lazy to spell correctly. It's a sign of respect for your fellow posters to make an effort to spell correctly and to use somewhat proper grammar.

You may also like to know that using ALL CAPS means you are shouting at people in writing.

kinda desperate... asserting to mispellings is pathetic

and i'm not even a hater

but it's curious as to why people like her. one of my professors used to say that empathy is the most bonding feeling you can have towards a book character. I kinda agree... I wonder if it's because she's a girl / female / abused person. seriously.

but i'm now afraid to enter one of those mentioned samsa threads.

Her name is Sansa. S a n s a. Not SaMsa. There is no "m" in Sansa.

The Sansa hate is not a new thing. I joined the board in 2001 and it was going strong then; it's going strong now. As with the Cat and Dany hate, it's normally people who have problems with anything but kickarse ninja Lara Croft females, or alternatively, female characters should be damsels in distress to be rescued.

Sansa is neither. She is a spoilt child who is growing up and is forced to learn things the hard way.

Sansa's power is just like Littlefinger's. It lies in her ability to use information. The first time she used it, it went badly for her--she lost Lady and alienated Arya in order to keep the engagement she thought she wanted. It was a rookie mistake.

The second time she used it, it saved her life. She weighed all the options, and sealed Joffrey's fate by telling Lady Olenna the truth of the matter. Sansa is interesting to me because she is holding her own and surviving in the game, against enormous odds.

Exactly this.

Sansa will never be a fighter or a tomboy, but she can become something else: a younger version of the Queen of Thorns.

[Lummel]

You slumming it down here Lyanna or just pop by to put the world to rights? :)

[Lyanna Stark]

You slumming it down here Lyanna or just pop by to put the world to rights? :)

Both, I imagine. :)

I blame Mya Stone, she made me do it!