The Stark kids and their "darker" education

[zatoichi]

Longish post on which starts with why Arya could be the YQ Cersei worries about (or why that'd work, I think) and ends with why the long travelogue and Faceless Men experiences are probably crucial.

Arya could work as Young Queen for me on several levels:

(1) It'll mess up Arya herself. That scene where Arya asks her father if Bran could still be warrior despite his paralysis and they progress to talking about her own future was priceless. I loved how she flat out tells Ned that being a lady-wife and having sons who'd be warriors was Sansa, not her. I'd love for her to be gloriously wrong.

(I loved those exchanges between Ned and Arya. I don't care much for Ned the-more-honorable-than-honor-itself Stark but he was great with Arya despite of course being hamstrung by the mores of that culture.)

(2) It'll mess up Cersei. I remember in a Jaime chapter where he recalls Cersei asking him to kill Arya or at least cut her hand off for what Nymeria did to Joff. Imagine what sort of counterfactuals she'd be reduced to making: if she only insisted on killing Arya, if only Robert had allowed Arya's punishment, if only she hadn't let Arya slip out of the castle, if only she had not been so focused only on girls she deemed her probable competition.

If either Arya or Sansa were the Young Queen, either Brandon or Rickon could also be the Valonquar as they are both younger brothers not to Cersei but to the Young Queen. This would again mean that Cersei (1) was wrong to suspect Tyrion, and (2) damn unlucky that Bran survived the fall and then gained superpowers during a quest for which one of his initial motivations was to find a healer.

(3) It'll mess up Sansa, and for that matter Jeyne Poole, Septa Mordane, and even Caitlin. This was the girl they derided as ugly and ungainly. (OK. That was a bit harsh maybe.) Her rise to a station higher than theirs has a nice ring to it. (For this reason, may Jeyne Poole survive with all her senses intact to better suffer!) If Sansa and Jeyne have to bow to Arya and call her Queen, that'll be a treat.

and finally,

(3) It'll mess up those people who deplore Arya as "psycho-ninja-nut" and therefore unfit. Queens being saccharine women who smile prettily and bat their lashes are as much fairy tale as shield maidens. Isabella la Catolica of Spain donned armor and so did Elizabeth I of England. Even if the argument were "but queens have to be a certain way to make people love them," history still accommodates a more martial look for a queen.

(By the way, Isabella seemed "touched" by some psychiatric affliction as well. Her mother became some sort of guilt-ridden depressed person with hallucinations and one of her daughters was given the tag "the Mad." There's talk that after her son died, she herself pretty much withdrew.)

What would make Arya a fitting queen are her experiences. Her guilt over Micah made it clear she had a soft spot for the small folks. She seems to be able to see through artifice. She also gained the experiences that Varys listed when he argued that Young Griff/Aegon would be a good king: that he has traveled, met smallfolks, and has lived their lives. I'm hoping the Faceless Men aren't just a bunch of culty priests moonlighting as assassins but rather darker sorts of maesters who can teach Arya what Maester Luwin was teaching the Stark sons.

[csm]

Something huge. House Stark will be making a major come back in the following books and will kick some serious ass!

Tbh I'd dislike this. Too much of a cliche ending.

[jon rr stark]

The Starks have ruled the north for 8000 years. You dont get to do that without kicking some asses. They seem to be the most honourable house but when push comes to shove they will be the most ruthless as well. People will follow them however not through fear and their ability to be the big wolf but because they they do it all with honour and style.

[lojzelote]

With the slow uncovering of the old Northern religious practices (read: human sacrifices), I have growing suspitions about the Starks of the eld and the means they achieved their goals . . .

More to the point:

I have always thought that dear ol´Ned was product of Jon "High as Honor" Arryn, therefore not your "quntenssential" Stark. From what we know of Rickard, he seems somewhat of a schemer, who put the future of House Stark ahead of happiness of his children ( Lyanna´s reaction to her berothed certainly wasn´t a favourable one). I´m not saying he was Tywin Lannister 2.0, nor that it was entirely bad thing, but would Ned do something like that? Brandon was portrayed as the hot-blooded young man, who doesn´t appear ti have any qualms about dishonoring noble maidens - again, not very Ned-like, or Robb-like for that matter.

Despite that many people seem to think that Starks are always 100% honourable goody-two-shoes, who ruled half the Westeros for thousands of years because they behaved kindly and fairly towards all their loving and eternally thankful subjects (note the sarcasm).

Really,they will be all scarred by their experience, and their future decisions will be molded by them. I think we will see one or two of them do something pretty drastic. Knowing how George likes to play with our emotions and expectations . . . Before ADwD came out, i stubled upon one post on this very site whose author said that he still sees the possibilty that the Starks will turn out to be the antagonists of the series. I laughed back then, but now I wouldn´t. If TWoW will contain some nasty/mysterious tales about what befall other leading Northern houses . . . :worried:

[Gala]

With the slow uncovering of the old Northern religious practices (read: human sacrifices), I have growing suspitions about the Starks of the eld and the means they achieved their goals . . .

More to the point:

I have always thought that dear ol´Ned was product of Jon "High as Honor" Arryn, therefore not your "quntenssential" Stark. From what we know of Rickard, he seems somewhat of a schemer, who put the future of House Stark ahead of happiness of his children ( Lyanna´s reaction to her berothed certainly wasn´t a favourable one). I´m not saying he was Tywin Lannister 2.0, nor that it was entirely bad thing, but would Ned do something like that? Brandon was portrayed as the hot-blooded young man, who doesn´t appear ti have any qualms about dishonoring noble maidens - again, not very Ned-like, or Robb-like for that matter.

Despite that many people seem to think that Starks are always 100% honourable goody-two-shoes, who ruled half the Westeros for thousands of years because they behaved kindly and fairly towards all their loving and eternally thankful subjects (note the sarcasm).

Really,they will be all scarred by their experience, and their future decisions will be molded by them. I think we will see one or two of them do something pretty drastic. Knowing how George likes to play with our emotions and expectations . . . Before ADwD came out, i stubled upon one post on this very site whose author said that he still sees the possibilty that the Starks will turn out to be the antagonists of the series. I laughed back then, but now I wouldn´t. If TWoW will contain some nasty/mysterious tales about what befall other leading Northern houses . . . :worried:

Ok, what about another Stark -Benjen?He was raised at home with his father. Ned was raised by Arryn, yes, as well as Robert was, but they are completely different! I agree that Ned's character is the main reason of his honor, and his children (and probably a nephew - Jon) have inherited that character. Ned follows the old ways and traditions, which could be passed to him only from his father, and not Jon Arryn. My point is that he mostly was born this way, as well as his children, you can't change your own nature that easily with somebody's influence, especially if you didn't have that feature of character from the very beginning, the influence could be a help, yes, but not the main reason. IMHO. Robert was also raised with Arryn, but he didn't become as honorable as Ned, because he didn't have that from the very beginning.

My conclusion: it wasn't the upbringing influence, it was more the nature of person, which goes through blood (looking even at the little amount of facts that we know about Starks, it can be said that they have honor (which is mostly specifically is given as Ned Stark's feature) and (even more) a keen sense of justice in their blood- look how all of them defend the innocent, weak and small, which a feature of true leaders, Kings and just good people). Looking at Lord Rickard's last actions it seems that he was quite honorable man with keen sense of justice (well, and probably naive like Ned) - he really believed there would be a fight and a fair one. So I wouldn't give all the credit to Jon Arryn (but I think he was a decent and great man, no doubt).

They also were good not only to their dear once, but to the complete strangers as well. Ned lost his head and put his own children at great danger, because he put Lannisters' children above his own; Jon defended a complete stranger - Sam, for example. Yes, they are or can be biased, as all the people can be (they still are people, even a fictional ones), like Ned's attitude to Jaime (frankly, who deserved much of at least at first books, until his POV). At least, they are trying to understand the others' points of view many times, like smart people should do in any situation.

I have no doubt that there will be some nasty and mysterious tales about old Starks (as if we haven't got some already), but it won't change anything. They are the best people NOW, because they are trying to do the right thing all the time, I didn't see that much in many other families in Westeros, except for Dorn and some other taken separately character, but not the whole family at once (definitely, it's not Lannisters' thing). If they become the main antagonists then I really would be disappointed, because logic would be: don't do good stuff, don't even try, because you will become a bad guy, the evil anyway, so be the bad and egoistic all the time and you will get what you want at any cost - whether the cost is somebody's life (even a child's) or the whole kingdom. It would be quite unworthy of reading then: the good, even broken, bleeding and dying, should win, all the time. (I'm an optimist and prefer to see and do good).

If any person in real world would look (if their would be such opportunity) at his ancestors 8 000 or even 1000 years ago, I think he/she would find them quite nasty, as well as their traditions and life style. And we are discussing fantasy book, where anything could happened, where magic, wargs, direwolves and dragons exist :)

[analeigh]

Can you imagine the "darker" education Rickon is getting on Skagos? One of the noble houses on Skagos probably figured out who he was after he showed up on the island with a direwolf and I bet the noble lord gave Rickon no choice but to assimilate into their culture if he wanted to remain alive and safe. Rickon is probably a savage young warrior in training now, learning to fight for survival.

It'll be interesting to see how Rickon wins the allegiance and support of the Skagosi when he is forced to return to the rest of the North. I can see Rickon proposing a fight between Shaggydog and the unicorn of one of the noble lords as a way to determine whether the Skagosi lords and their tribes pledge their allegiance to him. Now that's a way to assert your claim that you're worthy enough to be their leige lord, despite being a young boy!

[Mulled Wino]

I agree with The Dornishman's Wife. All the (remaining) Stark children will have a choice. And I think because of Ned, they will choose the path of "light." Why else spend an entire book learning about him, how he talks with his kids, how he treats his kids, etc.? Why not just start the story (well, not Daenarys') at the beginning of CoK, with the characters talking about how great a man their father/husband was? But that's a different topic.

Also, Martin is a big fan of introducing someone as "dark" or "evil" and then, though different POV chapters, you learn that their actions, in light of the new found knowledge about them, aren't as abhorrent or ruthless as you thought. I'm thinking about Tywin here having to restore his house to honor after his father nearly bankrupted/ruined it. Also with Jaime. Certainly some characters are just plain evil (Boltons, Gregor, etc) but any of the downright evil characters exist on the periphery of the story.

We'll see about Skagos, but I think Martin will surprise us. I'm not trying to make a prediction on whether on what's going to be, just that I think Martin will surprise us. But to say Osha, and by extension, the Wildlings are barbarians.. I don't know. I felt much more sympathetic towards them once Jon was living with them (again, see above paragraph about how Martin flips things on us). I think Benjen was right in GoT when he said that the Wildlings were like us, a little rougher maybe, just only on the wrong side of the wall when it went up. So to think that Rickon, who was already a little wild, will come back this raging hellion is a little too predictable, maybe linear, for Martin. Regardless of whether or not he is, in fact, a raging little hellion, I think we'll be surprised y where he and Osha are in terms of character. I've long ago stopped trying to predict things in this series.

Lastly, and it's kind of off topic but, because you kind of touched on it, I'll post it. It probably belongs on a faceless men topic, but I don't feel like wasting a day wading through 21 pages of posts just to posit a short opinion. When the faceless men ask Arya "who are you," it seems to me that everyone on this board takes that as evidence that you need to destroy/abondon your old identity to become one. When I was reading the books, I just took it as you need to be a damn good liar if you are to be an assassin of that calibre. And since the FM are the best liars and lie detectors around, if you can convince them of who you're not, then you can convince anybody. It seemed to be a "tough love" assignment, like when a piano teacher of mine told me to play something perfectly or get an F for the whole day. After weeks of agonizing over it (and weeks of F's), I realized that if I just played perfectly, there would be nothing to be nervous and agonize about, and the light bulb clicked on. I thought the FM were doing kind of the same thing with Arya.

But as to the OP's original point, I think it will come down to choice. Daenarys chose not to be chattel, Tyrion chose to accept his dwarfism, etc. We will see Arya, Sansa, Rickon, Bran, and Jon's choices over the next two books.

ps. please for the love of god please don't turn this into an Arya/FM diatribe. I think it would be unfair to the OP to have their board hijacked. I just wanted to get that off my chest.

agreed and agreed except not quite familiar with the piano teacher tough love.

[ViserionsFire]

Each of the Stark’s have been influenced by their father’s embrace of the “Old God’s”. Jon said his oath before them. Bran has had visions before them. Sansa found sanity before them. Rickon has been with Osha who has embraced them. Only Arya has yet to have any connection to the “Old God’s”. So, the “Old God’s” influence has a great possibility to shape Jon, Sansa and Rickon’s future behavior. That Bran can time travel though the different Godswood stands in Westeros and see past and future events cements the “Old God’s” influence on him. It will be interesting to see if Arya find’s a Godswood and if Bran can reach out to her though it. Even though Jon gave his Knightwatch oath before the Godswood, he hasn’t been to it for solace since then. It would also be interesting to see if he finds his way beyond the Wall to the Godswood grove and discovers something important that shapes his character further beyond his father's influence.

[Arya Targaryen]

Each of the Stark’s have been influenced by their father’s embrace of the “Old God’s”. Jon said his oath before them. Bran has had visions before them. Sansa found sanity before them. Rickon has been with Osha who has embraced them. Only Arya has yet to have any connection to the “Old God’s”. So, the “Old God’s” influence has a great possibility to shape Jon, Sansa and Rickon’s future behavior. That Bran can time travel though the different Godswood stands in Westeros and see past and future events cements the “Old God’s” influence on him. It will be interesting to see if Arya find’s a Godswood and if Bran can reach out to her though it. Even though Jon gave his Knightwatch oath before the Godswood, he hasn’t been to it for solace since then. It would also be interesting to see if he finds his way beyond the Wall to the Godswood grove and discovers something important that shapes his character further beyond his father's influence.

Actually, when the KOM told her to get rid of all of her possessions, she kept Needle, because she thought the Old Gods wanted her to get back that sword (from Polliver) and therefore the Many Faced God has nothing to do with Needle since it belongs to the North. Needle could be her connection to the Old Gods.

[Howlin' Howland Reed]

Well, she's also a warg, which is a pretty Old Gods connected thing to be...

[bbqq]

My theory at the moment is that the greenseers and children need something from Bran, otherwise it seems a bit improbable they would bring him all the way far north. So I think it will come to some kind of bargain struck between them in any eventual war beyond the wall.

[TheeMikeHoncho]

Actually, when the KOM told her to get rid of all of her possessions, she kept Needle, because she thought the Old Gods wanted her to get back that sword (from Polliver) and therefore the Many Faced God has nothing to do with Needle since it belongs to the North. Needle could be her connection to the Old Gods.

Neddle isnt her connection to the old gods it symbolizes her being Arya Stark, Nymeria on the other hand is her connnection to the old gods.

[bemused]

I agree Nymeria is a very strong connection to the old Gods , but needle may be to a degree , as well. She probably remembers her father cleaning his sword in the Godswood at home.... At Harrenhall, she went to the godswood for some peace and to be able to practice her swordplay. ( And on at least one occasion, to talk to the Old Gods , even if she was impolite )

[Miriamele]

Tbh I'd dislike this. Too much of a cliche ending.

There has been some cliche in the series but it was done so well people hardly noticed. It might be the same with the ending.

[TheeMikeHoncho]

I agree Nymeria is a very strong connection to the old Gods , but needle may be to a degree , as well. She probably remembers her father cleaning his sword in the Godswood at home.... At Harrenhall, she went to the godswood for some peace and to be able to practice her swordplay. ( And on at least one occasion, to talk to the Old Gods , even if she was impolite )

Thats right, forgot about that. But Nymeria is clearly her main connection to the old gods, Arya is a warg after all.

[mor2]

The interesting question for me is whether the Stark children will embrace these paths or reject them in the end.

I expect both Arya and Sansa to eventually break with their tutors before the series is done, leaving them more skilled and maybe wiser, but essentially uncorrupted (can you count as uncorrupted after having killed people? well, let's say "as uncorrupted as possible").

I dont think that Sansa is going to the "dark side", but Arya at her age, has defiantly gone through to much, to become normal. Eventually she can become normal, but she is going to have issues for years to come, anything else and GRRM should just give her some magic, sword the its not a sword, dragons and make her queen, why not its fantasy....

[Bushido]

Magic in the North is so powerful and proverbial. Darkness is just path to wisdom,light. Greenseers tickle the challenge,comprehend blood magic,face the demons ..

I feel that is the Stark way,I look forward to see these kids hardened and at trying.

As opposed to red priests - their blind faith is so damaging,they fail to see the truth.

[Hasfast]

Melisandre has pointed out in a previous reply that the Starks are bastards, or rather outcasts. I see this as the interpretation of the Hero's Journey. They all lived with love and care, warm and taking laws, kindness and honour for granted. These were all illusions whose value has been mainly keeping them straight and noble, but they've all been forced out of their shells. They've all been driven, by choice and circumstance, to the margins of what's known, away from most people's grasp. Jon was the first, but he was already an outcast. The others were gradually taken off-centre.

I think their stories are all in the scope of changing perspective, of moving and growing up the hard way. Each of them has been finding a second home, a place to learn and thrive, and become more formidable by increasing their knowledge of how the world works, while also jealously preserving that light they shared from the past, namely in the memories of Winterfell and their father. They may be much less idealistic than they were: Jon broke his vows but remained true to himself. Bran discarded his dreams of becoming a knight. Sansa is much less naive and has had enough of Princes for a lifetime. Arya was always a survivor, so she's merely sharpening her nature. Of Rickon we know nothing, but I expect him to be an embodiment of adaptability as well. They were all the children of Summer, and now Winter is really coming.

Also, I think they will all hold to the words Eddard speaks to Arya: the pack survives. They will meet and act in tandem, and they will become unstoppable.

Edit: I think it's worth noting that the Stark Words are the only motto not acting as a statement of House pride, reference to might or valour. They're simply a warning... and a warning that, as Maester Aemon says, always comes true. As the heirs of this House, these kids are to become men and women who embody that warning to the core, not just rambling proud princes and princesses... true fighters and leaders.

Edit II: Revisiting Maester Aemon, he says something to Jon before they part, that summarizes the change all the Stark kids are experiencing: "Kill the boy, and let the man be born". That's exactly what's happening to all of them. D.R.

[Oink of the Isle of Pigs]

Specifically for Rickon. He is the most susceptible to becoming an evil and dishonorable Stark, being a wildling isn't an evil or bad thing, but it certainly isn't something you would want to see if he is to (most likely) inherit Winterfell.

BUT look who Martin sent to rescue Rickon. The most honorable of all men of westeros, he lacks fingers and educations but makes up for it with his perfect demeanor and heart, the one and only Davos "Onion Knight" Seaworth. Could you ask for a better mentor for a young troubled boy? Plus we all know from Davos' povs that he misses his boys so much and takes his job to heart.

All is well for Rickon, i would focus on Sansa becoming the troubled Stark because all she has is LF and that probably won't change for quite some time.

Edit: To be sure, Sansa is the most southern of all the Starks and she also no longer has her Direwolf.

[Hasfast]

Specifically for Rickon. He is the most susceptible to becoming an evil and dishonorable Stark, being a wildling isn't an evil or bad thing, but it certainly isn't something you would want to see if he is to (most likely) inherit Winterfell.

BUT look who Martin sent to rescue Rickon. The most honorable of all men of westeros, he lacks fingers and educations but makes up for it with his perfect demeanor and heart, the one and only Davos "Onion Knight" Seaworth. Could you ask for a better mentor for a young troubled boy? Plus we all know from Davos' povs that he misses his boys so much and takes his job to heart.

All is well for Rickon, i would focus on Sansa becoming the troubled Stark because all she has is LF and that probably won't change for quite some time.

Edit: To be sure, Sansa is the most southern of all the Starks and she also no longer has her Direwolf.

But she hasn't forgotten Winterfell... The North remembers. I believe she'll eventually know of LF's betrayal and bring him down. Lord Baelish is tutoring his bane. D.R.