The Stark kids and their "darker" education

[Val the Wildling Princess]

Perhaps, "pull a Quentyn" will become a common saying?

Poor Quentyn, I felt so sorry for him but yeah, I'm afraid it will :D

[Candor]

I think a lot of my Sansa hate is because I've read too many "Official Sansa Appreciation" threads praising her actions up to this point. I really don't think there's too much to praise, but she is showing signs of realizing that she's not in a fairy tale with brave prince's coming to rescue her.

I too have read the three Dunk and Egg stories. He was an imposing, but righteous character. I do not think of him as "dark" because dark usually equates "evil". Brynden Rivers isn't evil. He's a true servent of the Realm regardless of who is on the Iron Throne.

Solution: don't read the Sansa appreciation threads...

Regarding Sansa's good points, they're there. But she is a personality people either love or hate. At least as far as I've seen. I understand why people don't like her, but I do think it's a little 'much as to hope the bittersweet ending is her dying. Really?

It's understandable (about Sansa appreciation threads)-there're too many.

And yes, I also do not see him as evil, just people saw him that way because of his look, his intelligence and his talents (which are very rare, I presume). I also thought about some similarity with Tyrion: ugly look, very smart and has never been liked by people (I mean common people in general).

And what would be an appropriate number? When new people join the boards, are they not allowed to contribute to these, because there are "too many"? It's fine if you don't like the character - don't make it not fun for others around you.

[JP Dayne]

If you're expecting Sansa to be in your face badass then stop holding your breath, unlike Robb, Jon, and Arya, Sansa is a behind the scene player it's her powers of observation and her ability to ferret out little nuances of plans that she is learning and has learned, if you expect her to go ape shit that may only happen if she finds out what Little Finger did to her family and even then, she just may kiss the man as she drops the strangler in his drink and watch him die as she did the knight at the Hands tourney.

actually i'm.. expecting her to... do... any...thing... at all... raising an army and fighting is not really in her personality, i'm not so stupid to want anything related to that.

my point is, she's merely an observer.

please refer me to any thing she has ever done besides crying and praying and lamenting... she's NOT a player. she's never made a move. closest thing i can recall is her telling our dear old tyrell nana about how cruel joff really was...

just to be clear, I dont care enough about samsa to hate her

I mean cmon she's a 13 yo girl, and we all know how she was raised. what would you expect?

it just pisses me off that a POV character with so much importance to the storytelling would be so freaking passive for 5+ books

Bran is the most insightful character so far. It's important for him to "see". I think this was part of why he liked to climb. He wanted the highest view to see more than what everyone was seeing. Pearson Moore suggested in his essays on the series that Bran believed Old Nan's stories were true because they were Bran's stories. I also think Rickon has the same gift of "sight", because we learn that he saw his father, Ned in the crypts after he was beheaded. Rickon, being as young as his is, just simply accepted that his father was there. He's been missing from the story so long that it makes me feel he has a huge reveal coming in the plot ahead.

And I am sooooo with you as a Sansa hater! We've seen many of the Stark children being very perceptive of the events surrounding them except Sansa...well, I think we can include Robb too. He didn't seem to indicate that he knew what was about to hit him. The other Starks also have been through, or are about to go through, a rebirth of some kind. Arya was reborn as Arry. Bran was reborn seeing with his third eye. Rickon's turn is coming, and I think Jon will be reborn of Ice. I do think though that Sansa has finally woke up to reality. GRRM hints that the end will be bittersweet. I hope the bittersweet part is Sansa's death.

love the "seeing high" thing and that those were his stories! never crossed my mind :D

and at least robb lead a freaking army and was a king and was the king with the best battle results through the timespan of the books! we're not set on as the exact reason he chose jeyne (lysene spells? it makes a lot of sense to me), he never stroke me as a guy that'd think with his genitalia;

btw, you should "veil" your opinion about samsa a bit more, it seems we've already stepped in some toes :lol:

j/k

but I think samsa dying would be interesting in a way... I mean, what would LF do? go after uncat?

[Melifeather]

btw, you should "veil" your opinion about samsa a bit more, it seems we've already stepped in some toes :lol:

j/k

but I think samsa dying would be interesting in a way... I mean, what would LF do? go after uncat?

I think we stirred up one of the Sansas "appreciators". Oops!

What an un-holy marriage, 'cuz LF loves Cat, they'd have to marry! I wonder what Littlefinger's name would be then? Unlittle? Unpete? What???

[Gala]

Solution: don't read the Sansa appreciation threads...

Regarding Sansa's good points, they're there. But she is a personality people either love or hate. At least as far as I've seen. I understand why people don't like her, but I do think it's a little 'much as to hope the bittersweet ending is her dying. Really?

And what would be an appropriate number? When new people join the boards, are they not allowed to contribute to these, because there are "too many"? It's fine if you don't like the character - don't make it not fun for others around you.

I wasn't clear here: I meant that for some people (especially those that do not like Sansa very much) it would seem "too many", like, you know, when all the radio stations play "hits" for 6-10 times a day (in my country it is like that) and you begin to hate song you liked before. People are free to express there thought about whatever they like, I just said that I can understand why it's too much for some people.

For the record, I'm not Sansa-hater at all, I love her, she is one of my favorite (needless to say, all Starks are my favorite, they are so different and so great). I definitely do not want her to die. And I'm hoping she won't change so much, because once again she is nice, kind, dreaming and innocent (actually the only character with such features), there is nothing cruel, cynical or bad in her (even now when she is with LF), she is just a girl and I like her the way she is. I hope at least one character stays "innocent", but become more "stronger" (I also think that she is much stronger than she thinks about herself).

P.S. Anything in my posts wasn't aimed to offend anyone's love for any character.

[Lord Damian]

Sometimes, you must get a little "medieval" in order to get things done.

[Night's Scotch]

actually i'm.. expecting her to... do... any...thing... at all... raising an army and fighting is not really in her personality, i'm not so stupid to want anything related to that.

my point is, she's merely an observer.

please refer me to any thing she has ever done besides crying and praying and lamenting... she's NOT a player. she's never made a move. closest thing i can recall is her telling our dear old tyrell nana about how cruel joff really was...

just to be clear, I dont care enough about samsa to hate her

I mean cmon she's a 13 yo girl, and we all know how she was raised. what would you expect?

it just pisses me off that a POV character with so much importance to the storytelling would be so freaking passive for 5+ books

Agreed. I don't hate her, I just think she's a waste of paper. I don't expect her to don a breastplate (with or without teats) and go riding out of the Vale to liberate Riverrun or reclaim Winterfell, but that little bit of resolve and steel in her spine grew when she was thinking about grabbing Joffrey and jumping off the tower seems to have rusted away. I'd have liked to see her learn, grow, toughen up, do SOMETHING, but all she's done is play a hostage.

love the "seeing high" thing and that those were his stories! never crossed my mind :D

and at least robb lead a freaking army and was a king and was the king with the best battle results through the timespan of the books! we're not set on as the exact reason he chose jeyne (lysene spells? it makes a lot of sense to me), he never stroke me as a guy that'd think with his genitalia;

Interesting read on Bran. I like it too. I also like how Old Nan's stories have given us a glimpse at the unofficial history and I'm anxious to see what the kernels of truth are inside those legends.

[FanTasy]

please refer me to any thing she has ever done besides crying and praying and lamenting... she's NOT a player. she's never made a move.

(snip)

it just pisses me off that a POV character with so much importance to the storytelling would be so freaking passive for 5+ books

Ha, everytime it strikes me how GRRM's writing offers many-colored views.

Arya is very active, she fights and kills and learns to be independent and steer her own future.

Sansa seems to be passive and not pushing the action.

But to me she isn't passive, she just has another way of steering her own future.

Sansa took action and initiative in steering her own future by telling Cersei that Ned planned to send her and Arya away. I don't think she was fully aware of the danger this would mean to her father and sister, but by secretly going to Joffrey and when she could not reach him telling Cersei she (Sansa) tried to take control of her own life. She wasn't passive here at all. And her move was very important to the play that at the time was running in Kings Landing.

We know about the evil things Littlefinger does in the Vale because Sansa / Alayne sees him doing it and describes it.

Being passive can be taking control too, it is a strategy you can employ in steering your life as well as start running around and killing people. That's why I like Sansa's and Arya's arcs, GRRM shows how two sisters take a different route and employ a different strategy.

[Precioushobbits]

Sansa is fine. She has been a great mechanism for showing Littlefinger without giving away the major secrets. My only complaint is that GRRM really owed the character some purpose and personality a bit earlier. It has been five books and she is still in the observing stage (and hopefully learning) from the midsts of her enimies. I think she will make some telling decisions in the next book that endear her to fans and demonstrate her advancing skill set and insider knowledge.

[FanTasy]

Sansa can as well turn to the dark, killing Sweetrobin, Harry the Heir if she does not like marry him, killing Littlefinger. She could be as ruthless as Arya :devil:

Leaving now ... I hope Sansa will not become evil ... and I like Arya :leaving:

[littlespider]

actually i'm.. expecting her to... do... any...thing... at all... raising an army and fighting is not really in her personality, i'm not so stupid to want anything related to that.

my point is, she's merely an observer.

please refer me to any thing she has ever done besides crying and praying and lamenting... she's NOT a player. she's never made a move. closest thing i can recall is her telling our dear old tyrell nana about how cruel joff really was...

just to be clear, I dont care enough about samsa to hate her

I mean cmon she's a 13 yo girl, and we all know how she was raised. what would you expect?

it just pisses me off that a POV character with so much importance to the storytelling would be so freaking passive for 5+ books

Wait, who is this Samsa you keep bitching about?

Oh, you mean SANSA. I know, how annoying is she? Like, stupid kid is held hostage and doesn't just stab everybody to pieces. And like, what kind of moron responds to psychological trauma, repeated physical abuse, and sexualized attacks and molestation with passivity as a survival mechanism? I mean, seriously, if she were not so stupid and pointless, she'd obviously go all Beatrix Kiddo and kick. all. their. asses.

Like, Joffrey? Bitch, please. Kingsguard or no, if Sansa wasn't LAME and vapid, she would snatch Meryn's sword from him and go samurai on his royal ass. Cersei? if Sansa had half the brains of her brother, she'd outmaneuver Cersei and cunt-punt her all the way to Asshai.

And don't even get me started on how Sansa just sort of accepts the fact that she's being groomed to be Littlefinger's concubine. Like, duh. Who cares if you're utterly dependent on this slimeball because he's framed you for regicide and manipulated you into feeling responsible for the death of your aunt? A decent character would have overthrown him by now, baked his shit into a pie, and sent it along as a "see ya, bitches" to the Tyrells before getting her uppity independent ass into a rowboat, crossing the Narrow Sea on her own, and then setting herself up as a wealthy, influential, and totally hot courtesan in Braavos.

Like, seriously, Sansa, why do you have to be so fucking boring? GAWD!

[Candor]

Wait, who is this Samsa you keep bitching about?

Oh, you mean SANSA. I know, how annoying is she? Like, stupid kid is held hostage and doesn't just stab everybody to pieces. And like, what kind of moron responds to psychological trauma, repeated physical abuse, and sexualized attacks and molestation with passivity as a survival mechanism? I mean, seriously, if she were not so stupid and pointless, she'd obviously go all Beatrix Kiddo and kick. all. their. asses.

Like, Joffrey? Bitch, please. Kingsguard or no, if Sansa wasn't LAME and vapid, she would snatch Meryn's sword from him and go samurai on his royal ass. Cersei? if Sansa had half the brains of her brother, she'd outmaneuver Cersei and cunt-punt her all the way to Asshai.

And don't even get me started on how Sansa just sort of accepts the fact that she's being groomed to be Littlefinger's concubine. Like, duh. Who cares if you're utterly dependent on this slimeball because he's framed you for regicide and manipulated you into feeling responsible for the death of your aunt? A decent character would have overthrown him by now, baked his shit into a pie, and sent it along as a "see ya, bitches" to the Tyrells before getting her uppity independent ass into a rowboat, crossing the Narrow Sea on her own, and then setting herself up as a wealthy, influential, and totally hot courtesan in Braavos.

Like, seriously, Sansa, why do you have to be so fucking boring? GAWD!

I have never loved you more. :wub:

[ARYa_Nym]

Ha, everytime it strikes me how GRRM's writing offers many-colored views.

Arya is very active, she fights and kills and learns to be independent and steer her own future.

Arya also is able to show restraint. She was a hostage in Gregor and Roose Bolton's camp and waited for the right time to get away. Basically she does what she needs to do to survive.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Wait, who is this Samsa you keep bitching about?

Oh, you mean SANSA. I know, how annoying is she? Like, stupid kid is held hostage and doesn't just stab everybody to pieces. And like, what kind of moron responds to psychological trauma, repeated physical abuse, and sexualized attacks and molestation with passivity as a survival mechanism? I mean, seriously, if she were not so stupid and pointless, she'd obviously go all Beatrix Kiddo and kick. all. their. asses.

Like, Joffrey? Bitch, please. Kingsguard or no, if Sansa wasn't LAME and vapid, she would snatch Meryn's sword from him and go samurai on his royal ass. Cersei? if Sansa had half the brains of her brother, she'd outmaneuver Cersei and cunt-punt her all the way to Asshai.

And don't even get me started on how Sansa just sort of accepts the fact that she's being groomed to be Littlefinger's concubine. Like, duh. Who cares if you're utterly dependent on this slimeball because he's framed you for regicide and manipulated you into feeling responsible for the death of your aunt? A decent character would have overthrown him by now, baked his shit into a pie, and sent it along as a "see ya, bitches" to the Tyrells before getting her uppity independent ass into a rowboat, crossing the Narrow Sea on her own, and then setting herself up as a wealthy, influential, and totally hot courtesan in Braavos.

Like, seriously, Sansa, why do you have to be so fucking boring? GAWD!

I love this for numerous reasons, but mostly because it made excellent use of the term "cunt-punt."

[skins7778]

I love this for numerous reasons, but mostly because it made excellent use of the term "cunt-punt."

I agree "cunt punt" might be one of the greatest phrases ever..... well done.

[4rcane]

Well, I'm one of those wackos that thinks the Starks are the Kings of Winter and will ally with the Others in the end, so yes I definitely think the Stark children are following a "darker" path, though I do believe it's all up to perspective. Regardless, it certainly isn't a coincidence that they're all being taught different skills which will help them claim their "revenge" with the coming of winter. Assassin, politician, magician, etc.

I actually think Jon's "role" is fairly clear as well: ruler and commander. His "training" was the Night's Watch itself, in particular his time spent as Lord Commander.

Rickon's the wildcard, since it's hard to imagine exactly what purpose he'll serve at such a young age. That being said, I do think there are many misconceptions about Skagos. As others have mentioned, we know they have Houses pledged to the Starks, so they're at least somewhat organized. Whether or not they're actually cannibals is harder to say. If they are, then I think it has something to do with wargs, greenseers, and/or the Old Gods, all of which may tie into the whole "Jojen Paste" theory (I'm not sold on that, but I don't think it's totally bullshit either).

I'm one of the few who also believe the Starks will eventually join the Others who will turn out to be much grayer and less evil than we first thought. I believe Dany will be regarded as the villain and not the hero of Westeros when she finally invade

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

Wait, who is this Samsa you keep bitching about?

Oh, you mean SANSA. I know, how annoying is she? Like, stupid kid is held hostage and doesn't just stab everybody to pieces. And like, what kind of moron responds to psychological trauma, repeated physical abuse, and sexualized attacks and molestation with passivity as a survival mechanism? I mean, seriously, if she were not so stupid and pointless, she'd obviously go all Beatrix Kiddo and kick. all. their. asses.

Like, Joffrey? Bitch, please. Kingsguard or no, if Sansa wasn't LAME and vapid, she would snatch Meryn's sword from him and go samurai on his royal ass. Cersei? if Sansa had half the brains of her brother, she'd outmaneuver Cersei and cunt-punt her all the way to Asshai.

And don't even get me started on how Sansa just sort of accepts the fact that she's being groomed to be Littlefinger's concubine. Like, duh. Who cares if you're utterly dependent on this slimeball because he's framed you for regicide and manipulated you into feeling responsible for the death of your aunt? A decent character would have overthrown him by now, baked his shit into a pie, and sent it along as a "see ya, bitches" to the Tyrells before getting her uppity independent ass into a rowboat, crossing the Narrow Sea on her own, and then setting herself up as a wealthy, influential, and totally hot courtesan in Braavos.

Like, seriously, Sansa, why do you have to be so fucking boring? GAWD!

Lady, you are awesome. I know I'm the third or fourth person to repost this and comment on it, but this perfect cocktail of truth and hilarity cannot be reposted enough!

I'm still trying to decide whether this amazingness could have been made even more amazing by using "slunt-punt" instead...idk, the classic cunt-punt seems quite effective...

[littlespider]

Lady, you are awesome. I know I'm the third or fourth person to repost this and comment on it, but this perfect cocktail of truth and hilarity cannot be reposted enough!

I'm still trying to decide whether this amazingness could have been made even more amazing by using "slunt-punt" instead...idk, the classic cunt-punt seems quite effective...

Thanks, y'all. Indeed, I think "slunt-punt" might come out on top, if you'll pardon the expression.

[Francis Buck]

I'm one of the few who also believe the Starks will eventually join the Others who will turn out to be much grayer and less evil than we first thought. I believe Dany will be regarded as the villain and not the hero of Westeros when she finally invade

I partially agree with this as well. Though I think it will, just like the Others, be a matter of perspective as to who exactly's the "hero or the villain". From Dany's perspective (and really the rest of Westeros itself), the Others will be an evil existential force led by the kin of the "Usurper's Dogs". And she may not be entirely wrong. But then from the Stark's side, Dany will be a crazed, tyrannical, dragon-riding warlord (warlady?) with three dragons who wants to conquer all of Westeros and kill any that stand in her path. That would be the beauty of it; neither side is entirely good or bad. You understand the motivations of them both, and it's up the audience to decide who's really right or wrong

[chrisdaw]

The dragons and direwolves will dance, it's not a coincidence that we've two mythological creatures of prey and opposing elements.