The Stark kids and their "darker" education

[JP Dayne]

kinda desperate... asserting to mispellings is pathetic

and i'm not even a hater

but it's curious as to why people like her. one of my professors used to say that empathy is the most bonding feeling you can have towards a book character. I kinda agree... I wonder if it's because she's a girl / female / abused person. seriously.

but i'm now afraid to enter one of those mentioned samsa threads.

[Val the Wildling Princess]

kinda desperate... asserting to mispellings is pathetic

and i'm not even a hater

but it's curious as to why people like her. one of my professors used to say that empathy is the most bonding feeling you can have towards a book character. I kinda agree... I wonder if it's because she's a girl / female / abused person. seriously.

but i'm now afraid to enter one of those mentioned samsa threads.

I guess it's a matter of taste. I cannot speak for everyone here but I'm a woman and I don't feel especially bonded with any female character just because they are female. I like good characters, and above all I empathize with good people, if they are male or female it's secondary. I personally don't care so much about Sansa, she is my least favorite Stark and I find her painfully boring, but I understand that some people can relate to her or feel empathy towards her because of the situation she is in.

[littlespider]

kinda desperate... asserting to mispellings is pathetic

So don't make them, because you're on a public forum, and you may in fact be mocked for them.

and i'm not even a hater

ORLY?

but it's curious as to why people like her.

Well, if you're really curious, then stop over at a Sansa thread and ask. People that approach with real curiosity and don't resort to rudeness or indirect ad hominem attacks are generally received quite well there. They aren't all necessarily Sansa fans.

one of my professors used to say that empathy is the most bonding feeling you can have towards a book character.

Indeed, this is why a great many people like Sansa, because she is a character who maintains consistent empathy towards others despite being in horrific situations.

I kinda agree... I wonder if it's because she's a girl / female / abused person. seriously.

:lmao:

Indeed, I like Sansa because in fact I watched a parent's head get severed, have been threatened with a crossbow, and been forced to look at a dwarf's cock. But, going by your logic, I guess that on some level I am also, like, a transexual or something, because I like Davos?

but i'm now afraid to enter one of those mentioned samsa threads.

Indeed you should be. But if you ever want to have a real, respectful conversation instead of being vaguely insulting to a rather large group of fans, stop on over. It might, in fact, expand your horizons.

[mediterraneo]

I guess that on some level I am also, like, a transexual or something, because I like Davos?

I guess that on some level, she could have mistaken you for a man, for empatizing with Davos.

Don't mock people for a misclick, please.

Somebody just listens to the audiobooks and does not know how the names are spelled, not everybody here is a native speaker, and we risk to lose the thread of a debate because of a silly mocking. Even if somebody may find it funny it is not that the reason we read this thread.

I would have spent more happily my time on a well thought answer to her point than on a mockery on Sansa's spelling.

Have a nice day!

EDIT: can you believe it? misspellings!

[Grail King]

actually i'm.. expecting her to... do... any...thing... at all... raising an army and fighting is not really in her personality, i'm not so stupid to want anything related to that.

my point is, she's merely an observer.

please refer me to any thing she has ever done besides crying and praying and lamenting... she's NOT a player. she's never made a move. closest thing i can recall is her telling our dear old tyrell nana about how cruel joff really was...

just to be clear, I dont care enough about samsa to hate her

I mean cmon she's a 13 yo girl, and we all know how she was raised. what would you expect?

<SNIP>

it just pisses me off that a POV character with so much importance to the storytelling would be so freaking passive for 5+ books

GOT: Sansa 5 & 6-Sansa comes forward to beg leniency for her father, and Cersei says that if Ned admits his guilt and swears fealty he will be granted mercy, then watches as she and her father are betrayed .

Tells Joff she hates him, challenge him on looking at her dead father and septa, is prepared to push Joff over the walk where the heads are shone (stopped by Sandor) when Joff threatens her with her brother's head, comes right back at him with Robb might give her his, takes physical beating and still defiant.

COK: Sansa 1: Joff threathens to kill Ser Dontos, she manipulates the King to make Dontos his fool thus sparing Dontos life.

When Tyrion tells her she is as loyal as a deer surrounded by wolves, she comes back at him with surrounded by lions.

Sansa 2: finds the courage to goto the Godswood in KL to see who's there that will get her out, she put her neck out there as if it was a Lannister she basiclly hung herself.

Confronts the hound on why he let people call him hound in a non pleasing manner.

Sansa3: After Robbs success stands up to Joff's goons beating her then sustains a humiliation of being stripped in front of strangers and guards.

Sansa 4: another trip to the Godswood, learns about Vary's and Moonboy may be his little bird.

Sansa 5,6and 7: Battle of Blackwater while the Queen Regent is getting drunk and showing fear Sansa is keeping the guest at the "party" calm, she tried to help Lolly through her fears, notices that Illyn Payne has her father's great sword ICE, tries to manipulate Joff into leading his men in combat wishing and hoping he dies.

Consols the Hound in her chambers before he leaves KL.

Sansa 8 : another trip to the Godswoods handles disappointment but learns when she will leave KL and gets a gift.

SOS: Sansa 1: tells TQOT Joffs true nature, learns how conniving the QOT is (would not surprise me if Sansa uses the trick in the future).

Sansa 2: another trip to the Godswood each trip she risk her life and that of Dontos by going there.

Sansa 3: Her forced wedding to Tyrion and Sansa refuses to bend the knee humiliating Tyrion it the process and basically telling the Lannisters to go F themselves.

Sansa 4: endures the death of her mother and brother Robb at the Red Wedding.

Sansa 5: Escapes KL relized she was used by having the hairnet,disobeyed the leave hairnet behind tucks it in her clothing (Chekov's Gun looming), witness the death of Dontos and the villiny of Littlefinger.

Sansa 6 & 7: Kidnapped by LF relizes she is being used for her home, being perved on by LF, shows pentup anger when her Snow Castle is deystroyed rips head off of SR doll, endures her Aunt's lunacy and accusation that she is stealling LF, fights off her nutty Aunt, and learns about the death of Jon Aryn before she sees her Aunt fly, takes care of SR.

AFFC: Sansa 1; Endures an attempted rape from Marillion, Tells SR she is his mother now.

Sansa/allane 2 & 3: learns how LF works, is asked questions and supplies answers with out any prodding (learning process unfolding).

You may think she is passive and not doing anything, but everything I read showes that despite her fears she confronts them and continues to evolve again I believe she will be the Starks political arm, she knows how to talk to nobles and commons alike, she observes and she listens to things around her and what was her fathers definition of brave?

The only time a man can be brave is when he's facing death, sure looks like she faced death many times and she fights on in her way.

And as a side note I don't hate Arya, but sorry her arc is ridiculous she should have been dead 10 times over, Sansa's arc is much more realistic then her sister's.

I might have some things out of sync, but she sure ain't passive.

[Woman of War]

AGAIN: DO NOT MOCK PEOPLE FOR MISSPELLINGS! This is cheap, half of the people here are non native English speakers, I am sure Martin writes for everyone!

Of course I can feel empathy with a little girl that had to watch her father executed - imo the worst that ever happened to her and everything else, even sexual assaults, are imo less horrible compared to that event, in its horror hard to imagine. And I already feel the shock when one day she will realize that she unknowingly and naively had a part in it. The worst imaginable fate for a child.

Apart from the different sexual assaults, two guys refrained from raping her, one with knife at her throat already, all her family murdered.....

Who would not feel empathy!

But what is Sansa's part in the story?

I see a certain development in Sansa's personality towards wrapping herself into the protection of growing emotional numbness along with more general awareness of small things and signs. She clearly develops more survival skills and cleverness at the expense of "goodness". She has to! She cannot continue to dance through the storyline as a running gag of a fairytale princess, as a quotation magically transferred from whatever childrens' book. Martin should better do something about it and he has started already!

The Sansa character has an enormous potential as story catalyst. Her chapters are immensely valuable for their insight into background views, a different angle at political events where the reader is not supposed to know everything. Having a LF POV would tell us far too much, would reveal secrets that are to be unveiled much later in the books, so we get the outside look through Sansa's POV. This is her purpose as Martin's story tool. So she cannot be too fleshed out as a person herself, her withdrawal into herself gives Martin the room to put all those important events into her POV without distracting the reader by too many activites from Sansa herself.

Apart from that her POVs are often wonderfully written - snow castle, so much magical winter beauty, the descent from The Eyrie and her growing courage in it.

I see her future story development either as important villain: the Ice Princess, Galadriel if she had taken the ring, an instrument of bringing desaster and destruction, warging into a dragon, burnig down Kings Landing ...... something like that. Or as metaphorically Virginal Queen of some plot deciding goodness, Arwen-like (without Aragorn so far, virgin, remember. Although Aragorn-Arwen sex must have been the least erotic archetype couple in fantasy history imo ;) )

Or Martin grants her a future as the simple girl she is which certainly would solve her personal problems, make her maximum happy, with garden and doggies, and take her character layout seriously and not only as plot device.

[Zacker]

Start a new thread people.

[Ran]

[Moderator]

Folks, keep on topic, and avoid personal attacks or inflammatory statements.

[/Moderator]

[Stark@heart]

So, back to all the Stark kids.

I think they were all doomed the day King Robert decided to make Ned his Hand. That Robb is the only one to have died seems...grossly unfair and this is GRRM were reading so I don't think he'll be the only one. Granted Bran is probably gonna to be a tree for the rest of his long, long life but still I don't see all the others making it back either. Actually, if it wasn't for Jojen saying " the wolves will come again" you couldn't convince me that any of them would live thorough the end of the series.

I think Rickon is probably a goner. Shouldn't we have heard from him before now? His character would be very dark indeed maybe he'll just never be found.

I will be very surprised in both Sansa and Arya survive. Arya seems the most likely to die given the way she lives but never underestimate Sansa and the path she walks balanced on a knifes edge between Littlefinger and Cersei. If Sansa does not kill Littlefinger, which I think she will, then he will be the death of her. Arya can walk away from the FM ( for now ) Sansa will never be free of Lord Peter - as long as he lives.

[JP Dayne]

So don't make them, because you're on a public forum, and you may in fact be mocked for them.

ORLY?

Well, if you're really curious, then stop over at a Sansa thread and ask. People that approach with real curiosity and don't resort to rudeness or indirect ad hominem attacks are generally received quite well there. They aren't all necessarily Sansa fans.

Indeed, this is why a great many people like Sansa, because she is a character who maintains consistent empathy towards others despite being in horrific situations.

:lmao:

Indeed, I like Sansa because in fact I watched a parent's head get severed, have been threatened with a crossbow, and been forced to look at a dwarf's cock. But, going by your logic, I guess that on some level I am also, like, a transexual or something, because I like Davos?

Indeed you should be. But if you ever want to have a real, respectful conversation instead of being vaguely insulting to a rather large group of fans, stop on over. It might, in fact, expand your horizons.

my point is you took it too seriously and personal

i wasnt insulting anyone. If you get insulted by people not having the the same favorite character as you, that's not my problem

I was in fact mocked for my views by that character's fans

re-read the posts

I"m not addressing to that kind of sansan crap anymore as it seems it has drawn unwanted mod's attention...

So, back to all the Stark kids.

I think they were all doomed the day King Robert decided to make Ned his Hand. That Robb is the only one to have died seems...grossly unfair and this is GRRM were reading so I don't think he'll be the only one. Granted Bran is probably gonna to be a tree for the rest of his long, long life but still I don't see all the others making it back either. Actually, if it wasn't for Jojen saying " the wolves will come again" you couldn't convince me that any of them would live thorough the end of the series.

I think Rickon is probably a goner. Shouldn't we have heard from him before now? His character would be very dark indeed maybe he'll just never be found.

I will be very surprised in both Sansa and Arya survive. Arya seems the most likely to die given the way she lives but never underestimate Sansa and the path she walks balanced on a knifes edge between Littlefinger and Cersei. If Sansa does not kill Littlefinger, which I think she will, then he will be the death of her. Arya can walk away from the FM ( for now ) Sansa will never be free of Lord Peter - as long as he lives.

I can relate on the jojen thing. I kinda expected the stark kids to be reunited after cat died. but it seems we'll only be seeing this in ADOS.

Disagree on Rickon, because IMO he'll be the stark in winterfell after bran morphs and jon becomes the king

I have no idea what will happen to Arya...

[zatoichi]

Personally I think it's about perspective.. I honestly don't see anything evil or dark about the faceless men.. they perform a service that is needed. I guess you could say the assassination part of their services might be " evil" but they also allow those who choose to, to obtain the gift.

as for the children and Bran, I again see things differently then most people.. just because theres a bunch of skeletal parts in a cave doesn't mean "oooh it's like halloween so they must be evil". Many cultures keep the skeletal remains of their ancestors and dig them up every few years etc, ancient cultures were much more use to death and stuff like that, especially if you are a nature based type of race/culture.

The FM training must be very humbling. Having to say you're noone is a lot harder than being told "You know nothing." And probably as hurtful as accepting that you won't be walking again. I guess they all had to give who they were so they can be who they were meant to be.

I think a lot of my Sansa hate is because I've read too many "Official Sansa Appreciation" threads praising her actions up to this point. I really don't think there's too much to praise, but she is showing signs of realizing that she's not in a fairy tale with brave prince's coming to rescue her.

I too have read the three Dunk and Egg stories. He was an imposing, but righteous character. I do not think of him as "dark" because dark usually equates "evil". Brynden Rivers isn't evil. He's a true servent of the Realm regardless of who is on the Iron Throne.

It's understandable (about Sansa appreciation threads)-there're too many.

And yes, I also do not see him as evil, just people saw him that way because of his look, his intelligence and his talents (which are very rare, I presume). I also thought about some similarity with Tyrion: ugly look, very smart and has never been liked by people (I mean common people in general).

Too true.

It's natural that some people will love Sansa because she is pretty and people want a pretty ending for a pretty girl because she deserves one (halo effect?). Even Cersei's got her loyalists, afterall.

Conversely, it's easy to think the worst of Bloodraven and Tyrion because of their deformity. Reading D&amp;E, I thought Bloodraven was probably the victim of foul PR contaminating idle gossip. He was a strong if fearsome Hand. Even Maester Aemon says he was a good Lord Commander.

In the interest of disclosure though, I may just be biased for Arya, Bryndren, and Tyrion as I myself grew up the third child, after a second child who was attractive and popular.

:D Cannot help it, I'm really concerned about Davos safety with Shaggydog around, he's wild!

Perhaps, "pull a Quentyn" will become a common saying?

Brilliant! I can see that happening! "Dude, you did not think it through. You pulled a Quentyn big time."

[Gurkhal]

I just hope that this will all end with the Starks getting the message and keeping themselves up north and not meddling south of the Neck. That way everyone would get what they want.

[Candor]

The FM training must be very humbling. Having to say you're noone is a lot harder than being told "You know nothing." And probably as hurtful as accepting that you won't be walking again. I guess they all had to give who they were so they can be who they were meant to be.

Too true.

It's natural that some people will love Sansa because she is pretty and people want a pretty ending for a pretty girl because she deserves one (halo effect?). Even Cersei's got her loyalists, afterall.

Conversely, it's easy to think the worst of Bloodraven and Tyrion because of their deformity. Reading D&amp;E, I thought Bloodraven was probably the victim of foul PR contaminating idle gossip. He was a strong if fearsome Hand. Even Maester Aemon says he was a good Lord Commander.

In the interest of disclosure though, I may just be biased for Arya, Bryndren, and Tyrion as I myself grew up the third child, after a second child who was attractive and popular.

Brilliant! I can see that happening! "Dude, you did not think it through. You pulled a Quentyn big time."

Except that is not the reason people like Sansa. And in fact many of us (myself included) like, even very much like characters like Tyrion and Bloodraven who are 'ugly'.

[The Swaggering Bravo]

The interesting question for me is whether the Stark children will embrace these paths or reject them in the end.

I expect both Arya and Sansa to eventually break with their tutors before the series is done, leaving them more skilled and maybe wiser, but essentially uncorrupted (can you count as uncorrupted after having killed people? well, let's say "as uncorrupted as possible").

With Arya it is quite thinkable that the break might be amicable, the FM deciding that she is not FM material after all or declaring that conversion wasn't even their intention in the first place (as I personally find the FM not as black as they're often painted, I kind of hope for that). Sansa's break with Littlefinger however will with a good probability not only be a complete rejection, but may also very well prove to be LF's downfall.

Rickon going wild & barbaric... I suppose it wouldn't be out of place if he embraces that and if he ends up King-beyond-the-Wall (or King-beyond-where-the-Wall-formerly-stood), it wouldn't be a bad preparation.

Bran is very difficult to fortell. If Bloodraven's dark attributes are indeed highlighted in the course of the series, I can see them break up, stay together despite the odds, Bran redeeming BR, BR corrupting Bran and much more... I'd expect that Bran will stand by BR, but I wouldn't wager any money on that.

Am I the only one who actually likes Littlefinger or for that matter Varys? Sansa will undoubtedly be separated from him though, since I know that his plan for her marrying Harold Hardying and rallying the Vale in support of the Starks is going to work. (Since he's Littlefinger after all.)

Bran and Rickon are on slippery slopes, but Arya is becoming Queen material.

Jon is a born leader, much more so than Robb in my opinion, I don't see anything wrong with him short of those little possibly fatal stabbings and his breaking of his vows.

[FanTasy]

Bran and Rickon are on slippery slopes, but Arya is becoming Queen material.

This is interesting. Can you elaborate on this please?

[Fire Eater]

As to Bloodraven's influence on Bran, we have to remember that the only views we have of him are from Dunk and from Ser Eustace who fought on the side opposite Bloodraven. We never hear anything from Bloodraven's POV. People point to that he slew his half-brother, Daemon, and his sons on the Redgrass Field. Bloodraven did say he had a brother he loved in ADwD; that could have been Daeron II. Bloodraven probably knew that the Blackfyre Rebelion would probably end up with the death of Daeron if it succeeded, and so he did whatever he thought was necessary to protect the brother he loved most. He would probably say he made his choice just like Daemon did when he chose to rebel. After Daeron died, Bloodraven probably took it upon himself to look after Daeron's progeny and keep his family and kingdom safe. The CotF wouldn't have their greenseer be someone with a dark heart. Otherwise

I agree with Ser Patrek that Jon is more of a leader than Robb. Robb proves to be a capable warrior and battle commander but a bad politician while Jon is better politician as well as an able warrior and commander. He managed to forge an alliance with the wildlings with hostages for safe measure, and turn an enemy, Sigorn, into an ally by arranging a marriage. Although to be fair, where he erred was with Marsh and his followers, not dealing with them.

[Elaena Targaryen]

Arya is becoming Queen material.

:agree:

I think you could say the Stark children are on different paths than they thought they would be. Like Bran wanted to be a knight and now he can't walk. Sansa wanted the fairy tale and now she has to be a 'player'. I think Arya could very well end up being queen material. It is probably the last thing she ever wanted. With all of the training she has recieved coupled with her flowering she will be quite the strong woman. She has learned patience, self-control, discepline, etc. from Syrio's training. But I think people underestimate her training from the faceless men, she will get more than being an awsome assassin. The training could be better than the maesters. We know she has learned about death, poisons, potions, lauguages, history, etc. Then there are things she aspired to learn on her own, maybe utilizing different training. The ability she has achieved with warging on her own is quite a feat aswell. Add in the fact that she has strong claims of her own to Winterfell, the Dreadfort, and the Hornwood lands. Also I imagine she will be very beautiful when she flowers, I hope at a young age, she will look like Lyanna. Now who is the one person in the world who Queen Cersei is/was jealous of? I think this fact could make Arya the younger queen and the valonquar, because she was a tomboy. Let's not forget her Gendry can reforge valyrian steel so Arya could be AA. Also she can take anyones face so that could cause some problems, maybe she could take dany's face and with warging be the mother of dragons. Sorry, I get carried away with Queen Arya.

Queen Arya!!! :commie:

[Ladywhiskers]

actually i'm.. expecting her to... do... any...thing... at all... raising an army and fighting is not really in her personality, i'm not so stupid to want anything related to that.

my point is, she's merely an observer.

please refer me to any thing she has ever done besides crying and praying and lamenting... she's NOT a player. she's never made a move. closest thing i can recall is her telling our dear old tyrell nana about how cruel joff really was...

Sansa's power is just like Littlefinger's. It lies in her ability to use information. The first time she used it, it went badly for her--she lost Lady and alienated Arya in order to keep the engagement she thought she wanted. It was a rookie mistake.

The second time she used it, it saved her life. She weighed all the options, and sealed Joffrey's fate by telling Lady Olenna the truth of the matter. Sansa is interesting to me because she is holding her own and surviving in the game, against enormous odds. Just as Arya is learning the ways of assassins and Faceless men, Sansa is learning how to do what Varys and Littlefinger do. At present she has no one to practice on, but Littlefinger, but talk about playing chess with the best!

She can't give in to her impulses to do things like shove Joffrey off a bridge, because that would end her story far too soon. She's obviously an end-game player, a pawn that will be queened and rule the board eventually.

[Ladywhiskers]

:agree:

I think you could say the Stark children are on different paths than they thought they would be. Like Bran wanted to be a knight and now he can't walk. Sansa wanted the fairy tale and now she has to be a 'player'. I think Arya could very well end up being queen material. It is probably the last thing she ever wanted. With all of the training she has recieved coupled with her flowering she will be quite the strong woman. She has learned patience, self-control, discepline, etc. from Syrio's training. But I think people underestimate her training from the faceless men, she will get more than being an awsome assassin. The training could be better than the maesters. We know she has learned about death, poisons, potions, lauguages, history, etc. Then there are things she aspired to learn on her own, maybe utilizing different training. The ability she has achieved with warging on her own is quite a feat aswell. Add in the fact that she has strong claims of her own to Winterfell, the Dreadfort, and the Hornwood lands. Also I imagine she will be very beautiful when she flowers, I hope at a young age, she will look like Lyanna. Now who is the one person in the world who Queen Cersei is/was jealous of? I think this fact could make Arya the younger queen and the valonquar, because she was a tomboy. Let's not forget her Gendry can reforge valyrian steel so Arya could be AA. Also she can take anyones face so that could cause some problems, maybe she could take dany's face and with warging be the mother of dragons. Sorry, I get carried away with Queen Arya.

Queen Arya!!! :commie:

Oh, this is awesome! :agree:

But I still think that Sansa will be a force to be reckoned with. There will be a lot of queens on the board at the end, but I think you just made a fantastic case for Arya as the YQ--I'd forgotten how jealous Cersei was of Lyanna.

(I don't see Arya as the Valonqar, though. I think that's someone else's job. There's a big difference between being a tomboy and actually being a boy.)

[Elaena Targaryen]

Oh, this is awesome! :agree:

But I still think that Sansa will be a force to be reckoned with. There will be a lot of queens on the board at the end, but I think you just made a fantastic case for Arya as the YQ--I'd forgotten how jealous Cersei was of Lyanna.

(I don't see Arya as the Valonqar, though. I think that's someone else's job. There's a big difference between being a tomboy and actually being a boy.)

I agree, I love Sansa too, and I think she "will be a force to be reckoned with." I can't wait to see what happens with her.

The valonquar would impact Cersei more if it was one of her own brothers, I agree. But the younger queen would impact Cersei most if it was Arya. I have always liked the idea of Sansa being the YQ, but Cersei does not veiw her as a rival, so I wasn't sure it fit right. But if you look at Arya being so similar to the woman who stole both of the men (Rhaegar and King Robert) Cersei wanted to marry, then that fits for being a impact to Cersei in her mind. It has to effect Cersei, and Lyanna/Arya is the only woman Cersei would think more beautiful than her.