The Stark kids and their "darker" education

[Gala]

I am concerned about some similarities between the Stark children present situations: they all are getting to "dark" side.

Sansa is with Littlefinger and is becoming more skilled in game of thrones. Littlefinger is some kind of tutor (despite the fact that he is using her to his own purposes). Lord Beilish is not a sweet and nice person, we know that for sure: he is cynical schemer. Therefore, Sansa is being taught some "dark", in this particular case - quite dishonorable, techniques.

Arya is now at the house of FM, where she is taught to be an assassin. I do not think I should make my point more clear here, as it is quite obvious that FM are quite nasty organization.

Rickon is very small, has always been "wild" and is, presumably, at Skagos now, the land of cannibals and he is under protection of a barbarian warrior woman (don't get me wrong I like Osha, but she is a sort of barbarian). I mean what could he learn from her and in general in Skagos?!

Bran is a "student" of Bloodraven, who has quite "dark" past as a sorcerer (I, personally, like him, I don't know why, but it seems he had his reputation because he had an unusual look and was terrifying, not mentioning his talents for magic, which he obviously had. My opinion is based on the Dunk and Egg's stories). But in this board there are a lot of people, who think that Children of the Forest and Bloodraven are evil. Anyway, they are seem "dark" and creepy.

Well, now Jon! He is a tricky one, even more than Bran. His story hasn't got the similar pattern comparing to the other Stark children (a "dark" tutor), but there are suggestions in this board that Jon is meant to be "darker" after his "death" or if he is dead, he doesn't count in this subject. There are also hints in his prophetic dream about the Witerfell's crypt.

What do you think about that?

[The Dornishman's Wife]

The interesting question for me is whether the Stark children will embrace these paths or reject them in the end.

I expect both Arya and Sansa to eventually break with their tutors before the series is done, leaving them more skilled and maybe wiser, but essentially uncorrupted (can you count as uncorrupted after having killed people? well, let's say "as uncorrupted as possible").

With Arya it is quite thinkable that the break might be amicable, the FM deciding that she is not FM material after all or declaring that conversion wasn't even their intention in the first place (as I personally find the FM not as black as they're often painted, I kind of hope for that). Sansa's break with Littlefinger however will with a good probability not only be a complete rejection, but may also very well prove to be LF's downfall.

Rickon going wild & barbaric... I suppose it wouldn't be out of place if he embraces that and if he ends up King-beyond-the-Wall (or King-beyond-where-the-Wall-formerly-stood), it wouldn't be a bad preparation.

Bran is very difficult to fortell. If Bloodraven's dark attributes are indeed highlighted in the course of the series, I can see them break up, stay together despite the odds, Bran redeeming BR, BR corrupting Bran and much more... I'd expect that Bran will stand by BR, but I wouldn't wager any money on that.

[babyberic]

I hope things turn out all right for some of the Stark kids, but the series is sort of dark in tone, isn't it? They're all going through dark rites of passage, into a dark season, out of innocence & into adulthood. (DARK!)

I can't imagine GRRM will turn them all into bad guys -- in fact, I think it's clear from the way the story has been going that the Stark kids are the series's major protagonists. They just aren't going to take only morally perfect actions or preserve their innocence straight through to the end. Winter is coming, you know?

On a slight tangent, some of the best heroes in the stories are the dark ones, Stark kids aside. You read about them, hoping that they will show a little more of their humanity and goodness each time you encounter them -- I'm thinking Jaime Lannister here. :-)

babyb

[Gala]

Actually, I am with both of you on this! I love Starks, they all my favorite characters from the very beginning and I'm hoping that they remain the best anyway. I only thought that their story lines are somehow similar to each other, and probably they will "unite" and use their new knowledge for the realm. May be on different fronts.

[Areo Speedwagon]

I agree with The Dornishman's Wife. All the (remaining) Stark children will have a choice. And I think because of Ned, they will choose the path of "light." Why else spend an entire book learning about him, how he talks with his kids, how he treats his kids, etc.? Why not just start the story (well, not Daenarys') at the beginning of CoK, with the characters talking about how great a man their father/husband was? But that's a different topic.

Also, Martin is a big fan of introducing someone as "dark" or "evil" and then, though different POV chapters, you learn that their actions, in light of the new found knowledge about them, aren't as abhorrent or ruthless as you thought. I'm thinking about Tywin here having to restore his house to honor after his father nearly bankrupted/ruined it. Also with Jaime. Certainly some characters are just plain evil (Boltons, Gregor, etc) but any of the downright evil characters exist on the periphery of the story.

We'll see about Skagos, but I think Martin will surprise us. I'm not trying to make a prediction on whether on what's going to be, just that I think Martin will surprise us. But to say Osha, and by extension, the Wildlings are barbarians.. I don't know. I felt much more sympathetic towards them once Jon was living with them (again, see above paragraph about how Martin flips things on us). I think Benjen was right in GoT when he said that the Wildlings were like us, a little rougher maybe, just only on the wrong side of the wall when it went up. So to think that Rickon, who was already a little wild, will come back this raging hellion is a little too predictable, maybe linear, for Martin. Regardless of whether or not he is, in fact, a raging little hellion, I think we'll be surprised y where he and Osha are in terms of character. I've long ago stopped trying to predict things in this series.

Lastly, and it's kind of off topic but, because you kind of touched on it, I'll post it. It probably belongs on a faceless men topic, but I don't feel like wasting a day wading through 21 pages of posts just to posit a short opinion. When the faceless men ask Arya "who are you," it seems to me that everyone on this board takes that as evidence that you need to destroy/abondon your old identity to become one. When I was reading the books, I just took it as you need to be a damn good liar if you are to be an assassin of that calibre. And since the FM are the best liars and lie detectors around, if you can convince them of who you're not, then you can convince anybody. It seemed to be a "tough love" assignment, like when a piano teacher of mine told me to play something perfectly or get an F for the whole day. After weeks of agonizing over it (and weeks of F's), I realized that if I just played perfectly, there would be nothing to be nervous and agonize about, and the light bulb clicked on. I thought the FM were doing kind of the same thing with Arya.

But as to the OP's original point, I think it will come down to choice. Daenarys chose not to be chattel, Tyrion chose to accept his dwarfism, etc. We will see Arya, Sansa, Rickon, Bran, and Jon's choices over the next two books.

ps. please for the love of god please don't turn this into an Arya/FM diatribe. I think it would be unfair to the OP to have their board hijacked. I just wanted to get that off my chest.

[OneThousandEyesAndOne]

i also think the Skagos is less clear than we are taking for granted at the moment. We know that its not just some isle with savage cannibals killing and eating anyone they come across, it has at least three houses who have all sworn fealty to house Stark, so there is order on it. Also its been previously referred to as the isle of cannibals and unicorns, so that could be cool, especially since we know form the children that unicorns are real. Finally the old Gods dont seem to have all that much of a problem with cannibalism, i think the label has been used by Martin to put everyone off and make us worry. I've got high hopes for the Stonemen.

[Black Crow]

As I recall the cannibalism element is overstated, and was something that occured through necessity during a great famine, rather than a case of the inhabitants having a regular taste for human flesh.

[Unhit]

Lastly, and it's kind of off topic but, because you kind of touched on it, I'll post it. It probably belongs on a faceless men topic, but I don't feel like wasting a day wading through 21 pages of posts just to posit a short opinion. When the faceless men ask Arya "who are you," it seems to me that everyone on this board takes that as evidence that you need to destroy/abondon your old identity to become one. When I was reading the books, I just took it as you need to be a damn good liar if you are to be an assassin of that calibre. And since the FM are the best liars and lie detectors around, if you can convince them of who you're not, then you can convince anybody.

While I find the FM highly suspicious in general, concerning this point, this is the same impression I had.

[Frey Pie]

The Starks are all young and impressionable.Theyve witnessed the light before the books start and now theyre all in a darker place. Rickons gunna be alright. You cant use how wild he is already to say hes gunna be batshit insane when he grows up.

Sansa is a good person in the end as is Arya. Out of the two of them though i can see arya is in more trouble. She still holds on to needle though and uuntil she throws that away i wont worry about her.

Iv been wondering about Meeras possible future and all i can think of is to keep bran on the moral right end. If BR is bad as many think Brans going to have to choose between following BR or leaving with Meera.I think hel choose the ball and chain in the end

[Fire Eater]

Dan Haggard explains well what the Stark kids are learning. They are adapting to the realities of the world, with some honor intact. He writes a good essay going over the theme of honor vs realpolitik.

[Val the Wildling Princess]

Actually, I'm hoping for the Starks to get a little darker. Don't get me wrong, I'm not meaning "evil" darker but "we are freaking badasses and you're gonna pay for what you did to my family" darker ^_^ And I can't wait for Davos to find Rickon, I mean, Davos is just awesome and the wild little Stark could learn a lot from him, I just hope Davos doesn't pull a Quentyn and gets eaten by Shaggy :o

[Precioushobbits]

I hardly think the Starks are going to the "dark side". Rather they are all learning practical skills to defeat their enimies. Quite frankly, in Martin's world it appears that might makes right. Just look at Dany. She is set to rediscover her true heritage is "fire and blood". Thank god, btw. I like good guys like Davos, Sam and Jon, but in a world where they stumble by being nice and practicality rules I'll be glad when their hard knock lessons are over. Better grey then black. All the 'good guys' have tried leading through their ideals and have had their wrists slapped (or been stabbed, beheaded, enslaved, put on trial, ect ect). Its about time they mastered the means (dark or not) to rule 'evil' or their enimies.

You have to appreciate Martin's writing of grey or 'evil' characters like Tywin. Tywin had a great practicality to him. After the Red Wedding he says something to Tyrion wondering why it is worse to kill three hundred men at breakfast then several thousand on the battlefield. He also gives good advice to Joffery. Once your enemy has bent knee and acknowledge your right to rule you help them up and make they your loyal (and somewhat fearful) subject. Basically read The Prince and you have the guide to understanding Martin's view of people IMHO.

The good guys or people with at least some moral compass will come out on top, but it will be via 'real' politics. Not by adhering to perfect principals. The Starks will be whiter then most, but still appriciate the darker means of rule and motivation. Why else do Rob and Ned die and characters like Littlefinger and Tywin (and least mostly) floursh.

I'm not one of the emos on the board that relishes Martin's dark world for the sake of being contrary. There are some sick ducks on here that realish evil for the sake of being different. I simply appreciate Martin's ability to write plausible good guys and extremely evil bad guys (that perform acts of cruelty we've all read about in the real world). It might be skewed slightly darker then the real world, but thats pretty subjective. I want the good guys to win, be pure, ect ect, but I wouldn't still be reading with the same passion if there wasn't a lot of greyness. A cost of still caring, being enchanted and curious about the ultimate outcome is realizing there will not be a perfect ending.

[dtones520]

I think part of their "dark" paths stems from the fact that Ned caused the start of the downfall of House Stark because he was too honorable and in the end, it nearly got his entire family killed. What the Stark kids are learning now will take the good that Ned and Catelyn instilled in them, before they were all separated, and make House Stark a powerhouse in the Game of Thrones...once order is established in the realm and winter has come.

[Night's Scotch]

Actually, I'm hoping for the Starks to get a little darker. Don't get me wrong, I'm not meaning "evil" darker but "we are freaking badasses and you're gonna pay for what you did to my family" darker ^_^ And I can't wait for Davos to find Rickon, I mean, Davos is just awesome and the wild little Stark could learn a lot from him, I just hope Davos doesn't pull a Quentyn and gets eaten by Shaggy :o

I could live with that. Sansa, especially needs to harden up. At the end of the series I want to see her grown into a woman as beautiful as Lyanna, but with Maege Mormont's steel spine and able to put the fear of the gods into someone by sweetly reminding them that Winter is Coming.

[Lady of Long Lake]

I think of the kid's journeys as a "Field Trip to the Dark Side". Those 6 kids led sheltered lives amongst honorable people until Ned became Hand. This is their first experience with evilness, greed and treachery.

I think they will be better rulers (once they retake Winterfell) because of all they have endured. They will know their enemies better. They will be wiser to the ways of the world. With their new knowledge, the will be able to anticipate and react more accordingly. They will work harder to keep the North in tact because they've seen what life is like on the other side.

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

I think that Sansa will doublecross LF and use whatever she learns against him. I don't think she'll be bad or anything, just way less naive and good at the GOT.

I don't think Jon will turn evil. unless he becomes a Other or something. But who knows, maybe they aren't that bad either.

Arya I could see doing something that could be considered bad, Not sure what though.

I don't think Bran would turn evil. Of all the starks I think he is the most good. i believe that if the children tried to do anything bad he'd have a problem with it.

Rickon's a wild card. he was only 4 or 5 when he was taken so he's still impressionable. I don't think he'll be a human eating bad ass but I could see him being what people would consider bad. Or maybe the cannibal thing is a rumor and he's out there chillin with Osha and Shaggydog.

[Night's Scotch]

I think Jon is on his way to developing that coldness and hardness the Kings in the North were known for.

Sansa appears to finally be growing up, but she still isn't showing the hardness or grit I think she's going to need. She's suffered, but she's still lived the life of a lord's daughter all through the series.

Arya is going to be queen material. She's been ripped out of her privileged life and had to survive the war and devastation around her. Right now she has the best idea of what it's like to live like a peasant, and she's becoming as deadly as the Sand Snakes.

Bran may not knowingly choose evil, but I'm not sure his tutelage under Bloodraven is going to be entirely benign. "Never fear the darkness, Bran.....the strongest trees are rooted in the dark places of the earth. Darkness will be your cloak, your shield, your mother's milk. Darkness will make you strong."

Is that the advice you want your child to hear? I don't believe Bloodraven is Melisandre's Great Other, but he's not exactly sunshine and rainbows either.

Rickon is a little savage, but he's still young. He may need some time on a Maester's couch once someone discovers psychoanalysis, but kids are resilient and I think with proper support, the trauma of his youth won't scar him too badly. He may just end up with a taste for dominant women, Island living, and bologna that has more than just a first name. :cool4:

[Zacker]

Stark, it rhymes with Dark.

[Gala]

Sure it does rhymes, but they are obviously the "lightest" in the series :cool4:

[So1ar]

"Never fear the darkness, Bran.....the strongest trees are rooted in the dark places of the earth. Darkness will be your cloak, your shield, your mother's milk. Darkness will make you strong."

That sounds like something Darth Vader would say.