Leaders of Houses in the End

[Tim Thomason]

* Stark - Extinguished. Except in the form of Bran as a tree somewhere.

* Lannister - Tyrion seems like a good guess. Too good, perhaps, so maybe Tyrek can come out of nowhere and get the gig.

* Tyrell - Lady Margaery, perhaps, after losing her Queendom.

* Martell - Arianne.

* Arryn - Extinguished. House Hardyng rules over the Vale and the North (tough pill to swallow for the Old Gods worshippers).

* Targaryen - Both branches extinguished. Daenarys might have a kid first, but in secret.

* Baratheon - Definitely extinguished. Edric Storm gets the Stormlands.

* Frey - Emmon Frey swearing fealty to the Tullys.

* Tully - Edmure, I assume. Probably not Catelyn or Blackfish.

* Bolton - Perhaps Ramsey can survive. Into the Epilogue.

* Greyjoy - Victarion who leads the Iron Islanders across the Sunset Sea.

* Night's Watch - a monastic order led by Maester Samwell.

* Wildlings - The Queen-Beyond-the-Wall (which no longer exists, btw).

[Lars Penry]

Probably all completely wrong but...

Stark - I really don't think Bran will become a full greenseer in the sense he must become a, 'Weirwood host'. We already have implications he is more powerfull than BR, perhaps he doesn't even need to be. Also his passion for the outside and adventure are too great. He's gonna get a ton of information from the Weirwoods, discover something untowards about the COTF, and get the fuck out. with Hodor and Meera. I subscribe to Jojen paste btw. I can see Ban becoming WotN. Rickon maybe even becoming a wildling, he isn't really a Stark in terms of his schema. Sansa dies, after becoming a badass, Arya does something awesome and survives.Also - Can BloodRaven warp Bran's visions.

Lannister - Either it is eradicated, or else Tyrion is the only true Lannister [ True meaning not a member of a Cadet branch] I see as maybe surviving, but I don't think he will be alive at the end of the books.

Targeryan - Extinguished, all my visions of the ways it could end, I can't foresee a Daenrys survival, even though I truly desire it.

Baratheon - Gendry is around for a reason

Tully - I think Edmure survive, and the Blackfish.

Greyjoy - Euron dies . Victarion dies. Asha lives. Theon is a nonentity.

Arryn - Everything points to Robert's demise. Meaning he is sure to live.

Bolton - Sooooo dead.

Frey - There are just so many. That they must live.

Tyrell - Is the only house I'm sure will survive, in some capacity though I think they will lose a lot possibly becoming a far weaker house, but still surviving.

[jentario]

Stark- Sansa, Bran or Jon (leaning on Bran)

Arryn- Sansa or no one (house extinct)

Tully- Edmure

Greyjoy- Asha

Targaryen- Jon, Dany or no one. Leaning on no one.

Lannister- no one or Tyrion

Baratheon- no one or Gendry

Tyrell- Wyllas (the rest are dead meat)

Martell- hopefully Arianne (but she'll probably die), likely Doran

[The Crow's Third Eye]

Stark: Sansa, she is learning the Game and becoming a major player. I think this will be important later on as she learns to rule... 'Queen in the North' maybe?

Arryn: Ummm, not sure. Royces?

Lannister: Myrcella, and the Rock will be joined with Dorne by marriage

Tully: Blackfish finally marries and his heirs hold RR.

Frey: Nil. goodbye

Bolton: As above

Tyrell: The queen of thorns! Joking of course, Willas.

Martell: unsure

Targaryen: Daenerys. I don't think she is actually barren as Mirri hinted.

NW: Brandon the Winged Wolf as King on the Wall

Stark: Sansa, she is learning the Game and becoming a major player. I think this will be important later on as she learns to rule... 'Queen in the North' maybe?

Arryn: Ummm, not sure. Royces?

Lannister: Myrcella, and the Rock will be joined with Dorne by marriage

Tully: Blackfish finally marries and his heirs hold RR.

Frey: Nil. goodbye

Bolton: As above

Tyrell: The queen of thorns! Joking of course, Willas.

Martell: unsure

Targaryen: Daenerys. I don't think she is actually barren as Mirri hinted.

NW: Brandon the Winged Wolf as King on the Wall

Baratheon: Edric legitimised and wedded to Margery Tyrell...in which case he will be dead soon ;)

Iron Islands: Theon wedded to Jeyne Poole

[The Reader Lisa]

I noticed no one picked up on what happens to the Clegane lands yet. Gregor is supposedly dead making

Sandor his heir. The Hound has no offspring that we know of so it would be nice if he could leave something

to the only people he has ever seemed to care for......Sansa and/or Arya. I think it is pretty much a given

that he will not survive whatever Martin brings him back to do.

I am not one of those who envision Sansa emerging as Littlefinger with teats. Everything we know about her

suggests she hates being used as a pawn because she is a Stark. Over and over again she thinks this or

that is only happening to her because she is the heir to Winterfell. If she survives, and it is a big if, I see her

taking the first opportunity to dump her identity and merge into the woodwork. (And at this point, the subter-

fuge Littlefinger has taught her will come in very useful.) Jamie hinted at this in his only chapter in ADWD,

saying to Hoster Blackwood< ".....if the gods are good, she'll forget she was a Stark. She'll wed some burly

blacksmith or fat-faced innkeep, fill his house with children, and never need to fear that some knight might

come along to smash their heads against a wall." It would be funny if she ended up with Gendry!

As for Arya, she's been through too much to ever settle back into a life she never really fitted into or liked

before. She would probably like to have some quiet, backwater bolthole to rest up in between Faceless Man

gigs.

However, this is all wishful thinking. Even if Sandor wanted to do something for the girls, I don't think he can

dispose of those lands to whomever he wants. They'll revert back to whomever ends up with Casterley Rock.

[kav2001c]

Some interesting theories in this thread. Some seem serious & some must be jokes.

Stark: Rickon is the obvious winner here. Sansa I actually think will end up on the Rock & Bran is up in the north

Lannister: Tyrion is another really obvious answer

Tyrell: the most confusing one. They are overreaching so will be taken down a peg, but I suspect Margary & Tommen will survive

Martell: Arianne

Arryn: Noone left of importance

Targaryen: Dany seems obvious

Baratheon: I'm in agreement something is going to happen to Stannis... but I also think he will redeem himself before the end. Maybe Gendry?

Frey:If Frey survives it will be through marriage to Tully

Tully: Edmure will live.

Bolton: I am skeptical Roose dies. I think he will quietly serve up Ramsey as a scapegoat & his strength is needed to help control the north

Greyjoy: No idea... Vic, Euron, Asha & Theon are all ruined in one way or another (and house philosophy seems like they were meant to be defeated in the end)

Nights Watch + Wildlings - Jon + Mance both will continue

I also strongly suspect the new Iron Throne will be less powerful than the current absolute one ruler model. Realm is governed more by the council (& Varys)

[fuseprime]

Stark: I mean, come on...there's four (five if you count Jon). Sure Ned, Cat, and Robb were viciously murdered but I don't see anything else happening to them...right?

Lannister: All signs point to their utter and brutal demise, and I think it will happen. Reynes of Castamere 2.0.

Tyrell: Will go on growing strong.

Arryn: Littlefinger kills Sweet Robin, kills HtH, and then is exposed by Sansa. The Vale rallies behind The Queen in the North. House Arryn dies off however.

Tully: The Lannisters are bringing Edmure to the Rock. There's no way he makes it there. The Lannisters will continue their decline and Edmure is freed.

Greyjoy: Their House will also die off. They made enemies with every major player. Every. Major. Player.

Martell: Arianne is becoming a player. I think Dorne will align with Aegon & Co. They might even be successful in taking the IT. Which leads me to...

Baratheon: STANNIS WILL FUCKING BURN ALL USURPERS!!!

Targaryan: After Aegon is viciously burned by Stannis, the House will then die off with Dany.

Edit: I don't think this will all happen of course. It's just my prediction concerning each House without regards to what happens to other Houses.

[Ludd]

Lannister -Podrick married to Lanna who is the daughter of Gerion (legitimate)

Stormlands - Gendry (hopefully married to Arya)

The Reach - Tyrells exiled and the land returned to the Manderlys

Arryn - House extinct - Harry the heir possibly married to Sansa

Martell - Trystane or possibly Edrik Dayne (married to Arya or Sansa)

Iron Thone -Arriane married to Aegon OR Sansa married to Harry the Heir

Iron Islands - Asha married to any one except an Iron islander

Riverlands - Black fish or Edmure

Stark - Bran followed by Rickon or his descendents

[Little and Less]

Stark - Rickon or Jon Snow Stark

Lannister - Tyrion (he'll find a loophole)

Tyrell - Willas who will be married to Arianne (finally building a peace between the two regions)

Arryn: Sansa either through Harold OR Robert Arryn (I'm not yet convinced that lil' Robert doesn't marry his cousin in a fit of spite against LF with the backing of the Royces)

Martell: Trystane

Iron Throne - extinct, Westeros will become democratic society

Iron Isles - extinct, Greyjoys are done for

Baratheon - Gendry will prove himself brave and loyal, will be legitimized and granted these lands

Bolton - extinct, lands will be given to bannermen

Dayne - Ned

Tully - the Blackfish will rule Riverrun and marry

Freys - extinct, the Twins will become part of the Reeds holdings for their bravery and loyalty to the Starks.

Targaryen - extinct, hey you play with dragons, you're bound to get burnt...

The Wildlings will be granted the gift lands and will help feed the NW as payment for all that LC Jon Snow did for them

Nights Watch - will be renamed (The Dawn Watchmen? Westeros Finest?)and its 1st Lord Commander will be Ser Jaime Lannister. All sons born from all families will have to serve for a period of time and trained in the fighting style of Ser Arthur Dayne. Ser Jaime Lannister will bring back honor to the NW. Ser Jorah Mormont will be the Master of Arms.

Head of the Citadel - Samwell Tarly

[fehler]

The Iron Throne - Jon Targaryen

Hand of the King - Sam Tarley

Lord Commander of the Kingsguard - Loras Tyrell

Master of Coin - Bronn Blackwater

Master of Laws - Yohn Royce

Master of Whisperers - Extinct, replaced by the Voice of the Smallfolk

Master os Ships - Wyman Manderly

Grand Maester - Pylos

Voice of the Smallfolk - Edric Dayne

The Eyrie - Harry the Heir Hardyng and Lady Sansa

Storm's End - Stannis Baratheon

The Dreadfort - Whoresbane Umber

The Twins - Left in ruins.

Pyke - Rodrik "The Reader" Harlaw. Asha Greyjoy marries into House Glover of Deepwood Motte.

Casterly Rock - Tyrek Lannister

Sunspear - Trystane Martell and Lady Myrcella

Highgarden - Dickon Tarley

Winterfell - Rickon Stark

Riverrun - Edmure Tully

Night's Watch - Lord Commander Jamie Lannister

Harrenhal - Lord Gendry Steel and Lady Arya. With the Twins in ruin, trade is forced through Harrenhall making it rich and prosperous.

Dragonstone - Lord Devan Seaworth and Lady Shireen

Brotherhood Without Banners - Extinct.

High Septon - Bran the Seer, who finds the Old Gods and the Seven are the same.

Alchemists' Guild - Extinct.

Queen Beyond the Sea - Daenerys Targaryen

[LovinRC]

I think the seven kingdoms will become seven Kingdoms again. The wall will fall, the Other's destroyed by dragons, and the realm will continue peacefully for the small folk.

Targ's: Dany cannot sit the Iron Throne because she thinks everyone else is the "Usurper". I think fAegon will be a player, but not sure where.

Starks: Rickon, with Sansa because she just wants to go home.

Aaryns: Sweet Robin will not make it, Harry Harding will, & not with Sansa.

Freys: All dead. They suck and deserve to be removed from the game. Hope the old man dies slow & painfully.

Lannisters: I Think Cersi will end up at Casterly Rock, be killed by Jaime, sooo, Tyrion gets it. He should. Even if Tyrion is scorned by his family, he is honorable to others and has always wanted the Rock. He is smart and wise and would do a better job at ruling than any of his other sib's.

as an aside, Jaime will redeem himself before he kills Cersi.

Tyrells: Who cares, they are just power hungry

Dorne: Should be Arienne. She has learned a lesson & realizes life is not a game.

Greyjoys: Sadly, Theon should die, even though he has been through hell & Aysha should rule. She is getting smarter and would do a better job than her psycho Uncle. Dude is creepy.

Riverrun: Edmure. ust as there should always be a Stark at Winterfell, a Tully should always be at Riverrun.

Bolton: All gone please. They are just sick.

Now going to people that should be reunited:

Arya with Jon. They had the purist relationship and should have an ending. I hope, because Arya will NEVER be a "Lady",back at Winterfell as they were, the bastard of Ned Stark and his youngest daughter with Rickon as King of the North.

Dany: She saved the realm with her dragons and gets to go back to the house with the red door and live with all the people she has saved. Lame, but WTF, can someone have a happy ending.

Baratheon: Stannis. please! He actually has a clue on how to run a Kingdom. Lose his wife, keep the kid. Grey Scale is not a death sentence with kids born with it, & let him rule his small piece of the kingdom. Maybe Mel can finally melt his cold cold heart and make him smile.

Gendry: Kicking ass with the BWB and NEVER knowing Robert was his father.

good night princess, and they all lived happily...ever...after...

[franbatista123]

Stark: Rickon will rule, and Sansa will ensure the house survives, sort of like the Queen of Thorns does to the Tyrells.

Lannister: Tyrion, most likely

Tyrell: hmm, i think this house might go extinct, but maybe Willas or Garlan can rule.

Arryn: Even if Robert dies, Harry the Heir can just take the Arryn name, ensuring the house doesn't die.

Tully: Edmure, probably

Greyjoy: Extinct, if Asha doesn't die.

Martell: Arianne

Baratheon: Shireen or maybe Edric Storm/Gendry

Targaryen: Extinct. I can't see them surviving...

[DMC]

I was going to post this a few months ago as my first post and never did because it is way too long. I'm never gonna have the time to cut it up though, so might as well just copy and paste. Instead of creating my own topic I'll piggy-back on this one, but it should be emphasized from the beginning, this is just my ideal list. No "predictions" here, and it's riddled with my opinions on many issues discussed on this board in a very unorganized fashion. Oh well, gotta post it some time:

As an introduction, I became interested in Martin’s series for two simple reasons: I was a Lord of the Rings nerd and this one had realpolitik in it. I just got my MA in political science, and am currently teaching at a community college in order to eat. I plan to move on to a phd and likely remain in academia. This is my way of saying my primary interest in ASOIF, and why I couldn’t put it down upon reading, is in the way Martin illuminates the essentials of political strategy in a basically middle-ages backdrop….with dragons and zombies and wargs, oh my.

Thus, what’s often on my mind when I’m on a GRRM kick while waiting for book 6 is what’s Westerosi, and Martin’s entire world for that matter, power structure going to look like when all is said and done? This is what this post is about, because it’s basically what we do as political ‘scientists’ – analyze political structures! (obviously there’s also a major data/statistical analyses component, but luckily the internet doesn’t make me do math). Perhaps there are some nihilists out there who expect GRRM to become destroyer of his own world (‘I am become death’), but assuming there are still some survivors left after the Others attack, I really enjoy trying to construct how and who will put the world back together. So this is the challenge for this topic: Construct your ideal Westerosi government at the post-climax/denouement of the series, obviously with characters from the books unless you just wanna make people up (I’d go Iron Throne: Batman. Hand: Michael Corleone). So when Gandalf is in a bedroom staring at you sleeping in his loving but way too creepy way like the old gay man he is, who do you want rebuilding Westeros?

Notice I said ideal. With two books left, it is decidedly impossible to divine who will survive and who will not at the end of the last book. Prediction threads are fun, and I’m aware they’ve been done before. This is essentially a list of who I want, not who I think, will survive. In fact, if I had to bet, I’d definitely say Jon is marked for the hero’s death, even more so than Dany. Pretty much expect both to be dead at the end. As for the Stark kids, though, I do think most will survive, with the possible exception of Arya. Her current trajectory actually makes for a pretty damn interesting tragic death narrative.

Actually, as a tangent (and there will be a lot of them!), I think the Starks’ survival is paramount to the story. A major thematic element to the political aspect of the series, that is beginning to become clear in ADWD, is the emphasis that political legitimacy is just as powerful as swords and gold. I really appreciated reading the compelling and jaw-droppingly well-evidenced theory linked in one recent thread here on the ‘Great Northern Conspiracy’. The author of that stated, and I think is exactly right, that the beautiful irony of all of Tywin/Roose/Frey’s tyrannical and despicable tactics, is that in the end, the Starks are still perhaps more likely to enjoy a prosperous future in perpetuity than the aggressors’ own progeny.

I really hope this is an aspect of the conclusion, because it does establish a point many have tried to make for centuries: if you don’t have the legitimacy of the people, you will eventually be overthrown in the end. Tyranny has an inherent expiration date. This is basically the only guaranteed way to get self-interested people in power (re: all those in power, ever) to heed the will of the people, and I’ll be really disappointed if this isn’t what Martin is leading to. Because it actually is a hopeful message: if you’re honest and fair in your use of power, you will be defended from those that aren’t. Thus, you have a self-interest to be honest and fair. Otherwise even the message of the series is depressing as hell. I’m actually very predisposed to killing off your heroes in general, but not when your ultimate message is ‘we’re all fucked.’

ANYWAY, there’s a handful of other characters I think most likely won’t make it to the end that I included, but in general I think the people I got here have a better chance of surviving than many other current characters likely to die (Jaime/Cersei, Brienne, Selmy, most of the Greyjoys, Stannis, Mel, etc.) Also, one strict rule I followed, is no people already dead; no unCats here. Except, of course, for Jon, but c’mon, he’s Jon. He’s, like, 1/3 of the main character.

Since this is just ideal outcome, we’ll start out with the easy one. This is still the most popular, although probably wouldn’t even reach a majority at this point around here, Jon and Dany as King and Queen. I’m surprised by all the Dany hate around here, although I can’t help but admit the Meereen chapters were hard to get through in ADWD.

The dragon has three heads, so I’ll go with Jon/Rheagal and Tyrion/Viserion for the other two. This is again the obvious choice, and I like the symmetry with Jon’s lineage and Viserion being gold. The only problem with this is I also really want Bran to have a dragon. I agree wholeheartedly with those that have said that if the payoff for the “…no, but you will fly” is just a bunch of ravens, or even an eagle, that’s incredibly weak. And considering basically the only flying thing in Martin’s world that is cooler than an eagle is a dragon, that would have to be it. I guess if he put a Pegasus or a pterodactyl in there I’d be alright with it. Oh, or that thing from Neverending Story, that’d be awesome.

Anywho, how Bran would realistically have a dragon with the above three is a problem even in my ideal outcome. Even though I think it’d be perfect because combined with his greenseeing powers he’d basically be crippled superman, I still wanna stay consistent with Martin’s world, and I’m pretty sure two people cannot ride the same dragon at the same time (I think it goes: a person can only ride one dragon, but since dragons live longer they could have multiple riders over time, but not before the preceding’s death. If anyone wants to correct me that’s fine).

So how can we get Bran a dragon? I remember reading some crackpot theories on here a while back that there is some kind of Ice Dragon either around Winterfell or somewhere further north. I’ve found, like, no legitimate evidence for this (and I went back and read that chapter at the end of ACOK), but fine, whatever. Plus, Ice Dragon sounds cool, and it’d definitely be unique to see a white CGI’d dragon on TV. I’ll get to why I think Bran will have an active role and not just be a tree eventually, that’s enough tangent for one category.

Next, I also am fine with the Aegon/Arianne marriage as well. I understand many if not most here think Aegon is a Blackfyre or a fake and therefore must have some negative agenda; I have an issue with this for two reasons. First, just because Varys is obviously incredibly devious doesn’t mean Aegon has to be. It seems pretty clear most of his upbringing has been under the tutelage of the crew on the first ship we meet him on, and most of those people (Duck, Lemore, the Halfmaester) seem like pretty good guys. Varys’ shadiness should have very little impact on Aegon’s character; and now that he has declared himself (at least to the Gold Company in ADWD), the Spider doesn’t really have any influence on the boy’s decision-making. Dude thinks he’s the King, and moreover Varys is still a very wanted man in all of Westeros (and doesn’t have such convenient hiding places outside of King’s Landing). No matter what happens, Aegon is very likely going to have to confront a Tarly led army, which is no walk in the park, so I don’t see the two even meeting in the next book.

Now, if you want to make a case that Connington has some nefarious plots, I’d be interested, but very skeptical if it was anything but what’s in the best interest of Aegon. On to my second gripe: Even if he is a fake, it shouldn’t matter anyway! That is the entire point of Varys’ speech in the ADWD epilogue and why I love the guy: he is the embodiment of Machiavelli in Martin’s opus. Littlefinger is clearly debilitated from always making the optimal rational decision by his creepy love for Sansa, and is a sociopath to boot. Varys is not, and his aims actually demonstrate a common misunderstanding about Machiavelli.

The far-too-simple way to understand Machiavelli’s political theory is “the ends justify the means.” Most people rightly then identify his tactics at acquiring and consolidating power as completely amoral and duplicitous, but they are forgetting about the second part of the equation: Niccolo the man believed in doing so to administer that power in a way that was healthier for the body politic. That’s what Varys is saying to Kevan: I frankly don’t care if you’re king was born of incest, but mine was trained to serve the realm. I’m not saying Aegon necessarily is such a benevolent Manchurian candidate, but I don’t see any reason to dismiss him so early without any evidence to the contrary, other than being a bit of a brat to Tyrion (after being baited).

Ok, back to the Aegon/Arianne marriage. I think it’s realistic because of the aforementioned reason that Aegon will probably need Dorne to stave off Randyll Tarly before Dany arrives, and I anticipate both Martells will insist upon marriage. As for Aegon, obviously eventually bending the knee to Dany when she does arrive is necessary for this framework to make sense. I think that’s justified if she shows up on Drogon, with the other two, as well as around a 25,000-man army filled with Unsullied, Dothraki, Ironborn and some scary looking sellswords (which I personally think is realistic by the end of TWOW).

Their marriage also provides the Dany/Jon union with an immediate heir. Important regardless of what you think Dany’s blood-spill at the end of ADWD portends; neither of Egg/Arianne has shown any evidence of infertility (although based on her character you would have thought Arianne would be knocked-up by now). Obviously, then, Aegon would get Dragonstone, not a bad consolation prize (although don’t tell Stannis that!), especially if Dany can’t pop any out and lets him know that.

Alright, for those still reading, I’m impressed/surprised and thanks. Now, I wanted to get those details out of the way because they represent the top of the power structure. Next, and most fun for me, is filling out the small council. I’ll give the basica rundown then plenty of explanations/tangents after:

Hand of the King: Tyrion Lannister

Master of Information: Brandon Stark

Master of Laws: Garlan Tyrell

Master of Ships: Davos Seaworth

Grandmaester: Marwyn/Samwell Tarly

Advisor: Yohn Royce

Advisor: Arianne Martell

Master of Coin: Rodrik Harlaw

Lord Commander of the Kings/Queensguard: Brynden Tully

Explanation: Tyrion as hand is likely most fans’ ideal choice; and mine as well. Although I kind of prefer to think of it as Tyrion as Dany’s hand and Bran as Jon’s hand. I renamed Master of Whisperers to Information to eliminate the negative connotation, just the politician in me. I like Garlan a lot (in fact all the Tyrell kids seem perfectly fine in the books once their dumbass father is dead; Margaery gets much more characterization in the show). He has demonstrated a fair mind and also serves as kind of an 8^th Kingsguard considering by all accounts he’s one of the best swordsman on the continent. Also would be a prime candidate for military command when needed.

Davos is another personal fave, not optimistic on his chances for survival but here’s hoping! He’s also clearly a great advisor and I wanted to get as many older characters on here as possible as the young kids will certainly need direction. Sam as grandmaester probably isn’t realistic so I put Marwyn in there in his stead for the time being. Other than those two and a couple of the family maesters (Coleman, the Manderlys’), we really don’t know anything about any surviving others. I figure if Dany/Jon are indeed the heroes they’re cracked up to be, the Citadel will capitulate to Jon’s demand eventually, and who doesn’t love Sam?

Bronze Yohn and Martell are added, if you’ll notice, to include every major house/kingdom in Westeros in the small council. I think this is vital. As Cersei shows, small councils are entirely malleable. I’m really going off of Tywin’s model here – remember he’s the one who put a few lords from the Reach on to acknowledge/appease the balance of power; as well as reserved a council seat for someone from Dorne, which is still in effect by the end of ADWD. This is an extension of that, obviously in a more democratic manner, and basically serves as a very small version of the U.S. Senate.

In fact, I would codify that each seat be reserved for each of the eight major houses (may be seven kingdoms, but the Riverlands deserve their own representative), although they can vary by office. (Here Grandmaester would not count as a member of their house/liege lord, I like the idea of maintaining they only serve the best interests of their masters/realm, if acknowledging this isn’t realistic in practice). Certainly, Arianne’s seat could go to another person from Dorne in the event of her father’s death/her pregnancy/another sexy Kingsguard to seduce, likely to one of the Sandsnakes. I like thinking Bronze Yohn will make it to the end, and there’s no big reason why not?, but obviously his seat would eventually go to some younger lord from the Vale. I don’t think this would be too hard to accommodate, other than finding proper candidates for, in particular, the master of coin and Commander of the Kingsguard. Those should probably be more merit-based than most of the other offices, so maybe some flexibility there.

I also like the idea of a bit of a larger council than we’re accustomed to. With this, you have nine votes. Count Jon and Dany and that’s 11. Maybe have a rule that if enough people think it’s worthy (perhaps like SCOTUS’ rule of 4) you have a vote, and if it doesn’t get at least one third of the council’s vote (3/9 or hell maybe even 4/9), the monarchy can not act (assuming the two want to act in concert, obviously if they disagree that’s a whole other matter).

Back to the list, deciding on a Master of Coin was hard, mainly because the template for it, LF, has no soul. While that helped him fund Robert’s wantonness, there isn’t much precedent in the text for a model treasurer. I included Harlaw because I needed an ironborn and I love the character. Gotta figure he’ll be a valuable voice on the counsel with all that reading and such. Like many, I hate the shift in focus to the iron islands in the last two books and I hope most of them die, but Harlaw is almost the lone bright spot.

On top of that, I think it’s important to include as many of the older generation that have made it this far as possible. Another clear message of the series is the danger of rule by kids going through puberty. I don’t know why Martin chooses Roose to finally actually flat out state this, but whatever. It was clear that all the smart Lannisters (i.e. everyone but Cersei) were very concerned about Joff’s rule. Robb and Theon’s stories are both classic tales of the follies of youths in power, if in drastically different directions. This is why I love the ‘kill the boy’ motif in Jon’s chapters in ADWD. Alright, on to the closest thing my rambling has to an answer to this thread – what are your ideal rulers for each of the seven kingdoms/major houses?:

North – Rickon Stark/Greatjon (regent)

Iron Islands – Asha Greyjoy

Riverrun – Edmure Tully

Vale – Harry (the heir) Hardyng/Sansa Stark

Westerlands – Tyrion/Myrcella Lannister, Devan (regent)

Reach – Willas Tyrell

Stormlands – Edric Baratheon/Margaery Tyrell

Dorne – Doran/Arianne/Trystane Martell

Night’s Watch – Jorah Mormont

Twins: Arya Stark and Gendry Baratheon

Explanation: Some of these require much more explanation than others. First, let me say that these are the effective rulers within their domains. Obviously, Bran retains his nominal rights as Lord of Winterfell. I just think he’ll be busy, and when compounded with the fact he’s unlikely to have children, might as well have his baby brother learn to rule with a good regent by his side. In other words, Rickon is the Stark in Winterfell. I just chose Greatjon cuz he’s so damn lovable; there are plenty of great candidates across the north that could help teach Rickon how to rule and ably secure the territory.

Asha is the last surviving Greyjoy by the end in my estimation, with perhaps the exception of Damphair, and man do I fucking hate Damphair. I think she deserves it, but I also envision Jon/Dany allowing the region to preserve the king (or lord in this case) smoot tradition. Once people get a taste of political participation they usually don’t’ like giving it up. So Asha’s rule would be tenuous at best, but I think she proves her mettle and I like how Martin tries to highlight the strength of women in such a male-dominated world so I try to respect that. Riverrun is returned to Tully rule after the anticipated decimation of the Freys.

I think Sansa’s story ends by using the skills LF has taught her to kill him with impunity and seize power of the Vale. I honestly do predict this to happen in AWOW, and for Sansa to muster the Vale to march to the Twins with their comparative freshness and strength, destroy the Freys with the help of the BWB and Reeds, and continue marching until they ensure a Stark is in Winterfell (which would presumably, and conveniently, provide reinforcements for the war against the Others). This is certainly the ideal role for Sansa, but it is precluded by her marrying the technical heir to the Vale once Sweetrobin inevitably dies, by ill means or not. The Mayor of Baltimore is right about that one. ;-)

Now, on to the Lannisters. I realize most people expect Tommen and his sister to die, and relatively soon, especially those that believe the Maggy the Frog prophecy should be strictly observed. But this is my ideal outcome (if Thomas More can do it, why can’t I?!). I will agree that it is hard to imagine a series of events wherein Tommen survives, but not Myrcella. Even if she may ostensibly be in more danger on her way back to King’s Landing right now, much less more of a threat. I feel bad for the cat lover, but can’t see him making it. I can, however, see the little girl getting through it all. And as she as about as pure a Lannister as you can get, would be the eventual Lady of Casterly Rock. Don’t see Tyrion marrying.

I think this is a good precedent for Hands to set. Part and parcel of why Aerys was so threatened by Tywin is because he was the most powerful lord in the seven kingdoms in addition to running his government. If you take that out of the equation, which would limit the candidates of Hand to second (and 3,4, not to mention daughters damnit) sons, that eliminates most of the threat from a Hand more popular than the King. I think this is another rule that should be codified: any Hand must first rescind all potential inheritance rights upon taking office, with an insurance he/she will be provided an appropriate yet limited pension of lands and title upon retirement. Basically the same as the KG, except you can still publicly acknowledge you have sex and can even have a family as well. I think if you’re going to try to build a political structure based off the Westerosi framework, this is an essential caveat (which I love personally as I am a second son myself!)

Let’s get through the rest of them without so many tangents. I’m assuming Mace will die by the end, god-willing, so Willas runs the Reach. By all accounts, seems like an able ruler. The Stormlands have been diddled around, but once Jon/Dany allow ‘bastards’ to be legitimized for Kings, no reason they shouldn’t do it for others, especially Robert’s bastards which are his only true offspring. So Edric gets SE. Granted, Gendry is older but Edric is undoubtedly more palatable considering Robert knocked up a Florent in that case. Plus, Gendry has been through hell, he doesn’t deserve the annoyingness of playing the game that lord of SE would require and he’d wanna stay around the BWBs turf anyway. On top on that, my ideal would be Margaery to marry Edric – think it’d be poetic if she finally ended up with one of Robert’s actual sons.

As for Dorne, I think Doran will survive. He’s obviously just going to sit around with his gout like Ben Franklin, so I don’t see him necessarily kickin the bucket in the next few years. Regardless, when he does there is a clear line of succession, so it’s nice to know Dorne’s leadership is identifiable even post-Others. As for the Night’s Watch, the Old Bear’s dying wish is answered. Doubt the Wall will still be around, but Jorah has plenty to brood over in the cold anyway. Finally, my ideal Kingsguard:

Lord Commander: Blackfish

Loras Tyrell

Balon Swann

Andrik the Unsmiling

Archibald Yronwood

Lucas Corbray - (hopefully Lyn the pedophile is dead and I like balance…plus Lady Forlorn.)

An Umber – Seems almost no Northman have served the Kingsguard, but it’d be cool. Martin has referred to the Greatjon having many sons and brothers. I would assume those brothers have kids of their own as well, so sure there’s one available.

[The Crow's Third Eye]

I was going to post this a few months ago as my first post and never did because it is way too long. I'm never gonna have the time to cut it up though, so might as well just copy and paste. Instead of creating my own topic I'll piggy-back on this one, but it should be emphasized from the beginning, this is just my ideal list. No "predictions" here, and it's riddled with my opinions on many issues discussed on this board in a very unorganized fashion. Oh well, gotta post it some time:

As an introduction, I became interested in Martin’s series for two simple reasons: I was a Lord of the Rings nerd and this one had realpolitik in it. I just got my MA in political science, and am currently teaching at a community college in order to eat. I plan to move on to a phd and likely remain in academia. This is my way of saying my primary interest in ASOIF, and why I couldn’t put it down upon reading, is in the way Martin illuminates the essentials of political strategy in a basically middle-ages backdrop….with dragons and zombies and wargs, oh my.

Thus, what’s often on my mind when I’m on a GRRM kick while waiting for book 6 is what’s Westerosi, and Martin’s entire world for that matter, power structure going to look like when all is said and done? This is what this post is about, because it’s basically what we do as political ‘scientists’ – analyze political structures! (obviously there’s also a major data/statistical analyses component, but luckily the internet doesn’t make me do math). Perhaps there are some nihilists out there who expect GRRM to become destroyer of his own world (‘I am become death’), but assuming there are still some survivors left after the Others attack, I really enjoy trying to construct how and who will put the world back together. So this is the challenge for this topic: Construct your ideal Westerosi government at the post-climax/denouement of the series, obviously with characters from the books unless you just wanna make people up (I’d go Iron Throne: Batman. Hand: Michael Corleone). So when Gandalf is in a bedroom staring at you sleeping in his loving but way too creepy way like the old gay man he is, who do you want rebuilding Westeros?

Notice I said ideal. With two books left, it is decidedly impossible to divine who will survive and who will not at the end of the last book. Prediction threads are fun, and I’m aware they’ve been done before. This is essentially a list of who I want, not who I think, will survive. In fact, if I had to bet, I’d definitely say Jon is marked for the hero’s death, even more so than Dany. Pretty much expect both to be dead at the end. As for the Stark kids, though, I do think most will survive, with the possible exception of Arya. Her current trajectory actually makes for a pretty damn interesting tragic death narrative.

Actually, as a tangent (and there will be a lot of them!), I think the Starks’ survival is paramount to the story. A major thematic element to the political aspect of the series, that is beginning to become clear in ADWD, is the emphasis that political legitimacy is just as powerful as swords and gold. I really appreciated reading the compelling and jaw-droppingly well-evidenced theory linked in one recent thread here on the ‘Great Northern Conspiracy’. The author of that stated, and I think is exactly right, that the beautiful irony of all of Tywin/Roose/Frey’s tyrannical and despicable tactics, is that in the end, the Starks are still perhaps more likely to enjoy a prosperous future in perpetuity than the aggressors’ own progeny.

I really hope this is an aspect of the conclusion, because it does establish a point many have tried to make for centuries: if you don’t have the legitimacy of the people, you will eventually be overthrown in the end. Tyranny has an inherent expiration date. This is basically the only guaranteed way to get self-interested people in power (re: all those in power, ever) to heed the will of the people, and I’ll be really disappointed if this isn’t what Martin is leading to. Because it actually is a hopeful message: if you’re honest and fair in your use of power, you will be defended from those that aren’t. Thus, you have a self-interest to be honest and fair. Otherwise even the message of the series is depressing as hell. I’m actually very predisposed to killing off your heroes in general, but not when your ultimate message is ‘we’re all fucked.’

ANYWAY, there’s a handful of other characters I think most likely won’t make it to the end that I included, but in general I think the people I got here have a better chance of surviving than many other current characters likely to die (Jaime/Cersei, Brienne, Selmy, most of the Greyjoys, Stannis, Mel, etc.) Also, one strict rule I followed, is no people already dead; no unCats here. Except, of course, for Jon, but c’mon, he’s Jon. He’s, like, 1/3 of the main character.

Since this is just ideal outcome, we’ll start out with the easy one. This is still the most popular, although probably wouldn’t even reach a majority at this point around here, Jon and Dany as King and Queen. I’m surprised by all the Dany hate around here, although I can’t help but admit the Meereen chapters were hard to get through in ADWD.

The dragon has three heads, so I’ll go with Jon/Rheagal and Tyrion/Viserion for the other two. This is again the obvious choice, and I like the symmetry with Jon’s lineage and Viserion being gold. The only problem with this is I also really want Bran to have a dragon. I agree wholeheartedly with those that have said that if the payoff for the “…no, but you will fly” is just a bunch of ravens, or even an eagle, that’s incredibly weak. And considering basically the only flying thing in Martin’s world that is cooler than an eagle is a dragon, that would have to be it. I guess if he put a Pegasus or a pterodactyl in there I’d be alright with it. Oh, or that thing from Neverending Story, that’d be awesome.

Anywho, how Bran would realistically have a dragon with the above three is a problem even in my ideal outcome. Even though I think it’d be perfect because combined with his greenseeing powers he’d basically be crippled superman, I still wanna stay consistent with Martin’s world, and I’m pretty sure two people cannot ride the same dragon at the same time (I think it goes: a person can only ride one dragon, but since dragons live longer they could have multiple riders over time, but not before the preceding’s death. If anyone wants to correct me that’s fine).

So how can we get Bran a dragon? I remember reading some crackpot theories on here a while back that there is some kind of Ice Dragon either around Winterfell or somewhere further north. I’ve found, like, no legitimate evidence for this (and I went back and read that chapter at the end of ACOK), but fine, whatever. Plus, Ice Dragon sounds cool, and it’d definitely be unique to see a white CGI’d dragon on TV. I’ll get to why I think Bran will have an active role and not just be a tree eventually, that’s enough tangent for one category.

Next, I also am fine with the Aegon/Arianne marriage as well. I understand many if not most here think Aegon is a Blackfyre or a fake and therefore must have some negative agenda; I have an issue with this for two reasons. First, just because Varys is obviously incredibly devious doesn’t mean Aegon has to be. It seems pretty clear most of his upbringing has been under the tutelage of the crew on the first ship we meet him on, and most of those people (Duck, Lemore, the Halfmaester) seem like pretty good guys. Varys’ shadiness should have very little impact on Aegon’s character; and now that he has declared himself (at least to the Gold Company in ADWD), the Spider doesn’t really have any influence on the boy’s decision-making. Dude thinks he’s the King, and moreover Varys is still a very wanted man in all of Westeros (and doesn’t have such convenient hiding places outside of King’s Landing). No matter what happens, Aegon is very likely going to have to confront a Tarly led army, which is no walk in the park, so I don’t see the two even meeting in the next book.

Now, if you want to make a case that Connington has some nefarious plots, I’d be interested, but very skeptical if it was anything but what’s in the best interest of Aegon. On to my second gripe: Even if he is a fake, it shouldn’t matter anyway! That is the entire point of Varys’ speech in the ADWD epilogue and why I love the guy: he is the embodiment of Machiavelli in Martin’s opus. Littlefinger is clearly debilitated from always making the optimal rational decision by his creepy love for Sansa, and is a sociopath to boot. Varys is not, and his aims actually demonstrate a common misunderstanding about Machiavelli.

The far-too-simple way to understand Machiavelli’s political theory is “the ends justify the means.” Most people rightly then identify his tactics at acquiring and consolidating power as completely amoral and duplicitous, but they are forgetting about the second part of the equation: Niccolo the man believed in doing so to administer that power in a way that was healthier for the body politic. That’s what Varys is saying to Kevan: I frankly don’t care if you’re king was born of incest, but mine was trained to serve the realm. I’m not saying Aegon necessarily is such a benevolent Manchurian candidate, but I don’t see any reason to dismiss him so early without any evidence to the contrary, other than being a bit of a brat to Tyrion (after being baited).

Ok, back to the Aegon/Arianne marriage. I think it’s realistic because of the aforementioned reason that Aegon will probably need Dorne to stave off Randyll Tarly before Dany arrives, and I anticipate both Martells will insist upon marriage. As for Aegon, obviously eventually bending the knee to Dany when she does arrive is necessary for this framework to make sense. I think that’s justified if she shows up on Drogon, with the other two, as well as around a 25,000-man army filled with Unsullied, Dothraki, Ironborn and some scary looking sellswords (which I personally think is realistic by the end of TWOW).

Their marriage also provides the Dany/Jon union with an immediate heir. Important regardless of what you think Dany’s blood-spill at the end of ADWD portends; neither of Egg/Arianne has shown any evidence of infertility (although based on her character you would have thought Arianne would be knocked-up by now). Obviously, then, Aegon would get Dragonstone, not a bad consolation prize (although don’t tell Stannis that!), especially if Dany can’t pop any out and lets him know that.

Alright, for those still reading, I’m impressed/surprised and thanks. Now, I wanted to get those details out of the way because they represent the top of the power structure. Next, and most fun for me, is filling out the small council. I’ll give the basica rundown then plenty of explanations/tangents after:

Hand of the King: Tyrion Lannister

Master of Information: Brandon Stark

Master of Laws: Garlan Tyrell

Master of Ships: Davos Seaworth

Grandmaester: Marwyn/Samwell Tarly

Advisor: Yohn Royce

Advisor: Arianne Martell

Master of Coin: Rodrik Harlaw

Lord Commander of the Kings/Queensguard: Brynden Tully

Explanation: Tyrion as hand is likely most fans’ ideal choice; and mine as well. Although I kind of prefer to think of it as Tyrion as Dany’s hand and Bran as Jon’s hand. I renamed Master of Whisperers to Information to eliminate the negative connotation, just the politician in me. I like Garlan a lot (in fact all the Tyrell kids seem perfectly fine in the books once their dumbass father is dead; Margaery gets much more characterization in the show). He has demonstrated a fair mind and also serves as kind of an 8^th Kingsguard considering by all accounts he’s one of the best swordsman on the continent. Also would be a prime candidate for military command when needed.

Davos is another personal fave, not optimistic on his chances for survival but here’s hoping! He’s also clearly a great advisor and I wanted to get as many older characters on here as possible as the young kids will certainly need direction. Sam as grandmaester probably isn’t realistic so I put Marwyn in there in his stead for the time being. Other than those two and a couple of the family maesters (Coleman, the Manderlys’), we really don’t know anything about any surviving others. I figure if Dany/Jon are indeed the heroes they’re cracked up to be, the Citadel will capitulate to Jon’s demand eventually, and who doesn’t love Sam?

Bronze Yohn and Martell are added, if you’ll notice, to include every major house/kingdom in Westeros in the small council. I think this is vital. As Cersei shows, small councils are entirely malleable. I’m really going off of Tywin’s model here – remember he’s the one who put a few lords from the Reach on to acknowledge/appease the balance of power; as well as reserved a council seat for someone from Dorne, which is still in effect by the end of ADWD. This is an extension of that, obviously in a more democratic manner, and basically serves as a very small version of the U.S. Senate.

In fact, I would codify that each seat be reserved for each of the eight major houses (may be seven kingdoms, but the Riverlands deserve their own representative), although they can vary by office. (Here Grandmaester would not count as a member of their house/liege lord, I like the idea of maintaining they only serve the best interests of their masters/realm, if acknowledging this isn’t realistic in practice). Certainly, Arianne’s seat could go to another person from Dorne in the event of her father’s death/her pregnancy/another sexy Kingsguard to seduce, likely to one of the Sandsnakes. I like thinking Bronze Yohn will make it to the end, and there’s no big reason why not?, but obviously his seat would eventually go to some younger lord from the Vale. I don’t think this would be too hard to accommodate, other than finding proper candidates for, in particular, the master of coin and Commander of the Kingsguard. Those should probably be more merit-based than most of the other offices, so maybe some flexibility there.

I also like the idea of a bit of a larger council than we’re accustomed to. With this, you have nine votes. Count Jon and Dany and that’s 11. Maybe have a rule that if enough people think it’s worthy (perhaps like SCOTUS’ rule of 4) you have a vote, and if it doesn’t get at least one third of the council’s vote (3/9 or hell maybe even 4/9), the monarchy can not act (assuming the two want to act in concert, obviously if they disagree that’s a whole other matter).

Back to the list, deciding on a Master of Coin was hard, mainly because the template for it, LF, has no soul. While that helped him fund Robert’s wantonness, there isn’t much precedent in the text for a model treasurer. I included Harlaw because I needed an ironborn and I love the character. Gotta figure he’ll be a valuable voice on the counsel with all that reading and such. Like many, I hate the shift in focus to the iron islands in the last two books and I hope most of them die, but Harlaw is almost the lone bright spot.

On top of that, I think it’s important to include as many of the older generation that have made it this far as possible. Another clear message of the series is the danger of rule by kids going through puberty. I don’t know why Martin chooses Roose to finally actually flat out state this, but whatever. It was clear that all the smart Lannisters (i.e. everyone but Cersei) were very concerned about Joff’s rule. Robb and Theon’s stories are both classic tales of the follies of youths in power, if in drastically different directions. This is why I love the ‘kill the boy’ motif in Jon’s chapters in ADWD. Alright, on to the closest thing my rambling has to an answer to this thread – what are your ideal rulers for each of the seven kingdoms/major houses?:

North – Rickon Stark/Greatjon (regent)

Iron Islands – Asha Greyjoy

Riverrun – Edmure Tully

Vale – Harry (the heir) Hardyng/Sansa Stark

Westerlands – Tyrion/Myrcella Lannister, Devan (regent)

Reach – Willas Tyrell

Stormlands – Edric Baratheon/Margaery Tyrell

Dorne – Doran/Arianne/Trystane Martell

Night’s Watch – Jorah Mormont

Twins: Arya Stark and Gendry Baratheon

Explanation: Some of these require much more explanation than others. First, let me say that these are the effective rulers within their domains. Obviously, Bran retains his nominal rights as Lord of Winterfell. I just think he’ll be busy, and when compounded with the fact he’s unlikely to have children, might as well have his baby brother learn to rule with a good regent by his side. In other words, Rickon is the Stark in Winterfell. I just chose Greatjon cuz he’s so damn lovable; there are plenty of great candidates across the north that could help teach Rickon how to rule and ably secure the territory.

Asha is the last surviving Greyjoy by the end in my estimation, with perhaps the exception of Damphair, and man do I fucking hate Damphair. I think she deserves it, but I also envision Jon/Dany allowing the region to preserve the king (or lord in this case) smoot tradition. Once people get a taste of political participation they usually don’t’ like giving it up. So Asha’s rule would be tenuous at best, but I think she proves her mettle and I like how Martin tries to highlight the strength of women in such a male-dominated world so I try to respect that. Riverrun is returned to Tully rule after the anticipated decimation of the Freys.

I think Sansa’s story ends by using the skills LF has taught her to kill him with impunity and seize power of the Vale. I honestly do predict this to happen in AWOW, and for Sansa to muster the Vale to march to the Twins with their comparative freshness and strength, destroy the Freys with the help of the BWB and Reeds, and continue marching until they ensure a Stark is in Winterfell (which would presumably, and conveniently, provide reinforcements for the war against the Others). This is certainly the ideal role for Sansa, but it is precluded by her marrying the technical heir to the Vale once Sweetrobin inevitably dies, by ill means or not. The Mayor of Baltimore is right about that one. ;-)

Now, on to the Lannisters. I realize most people expect Tommen and his sister to die, and relatively soon, especially those that believe the Maggy the Frog prophecy should be strictly observed. But this is my ideal outcome (if Thomas More can do it, why can’t I?!). I will agree that it is hard to imagine a series of events wherein Tommen survives, but not Myrcella. Even if she may ostensibly be in more danger on her way back to King’s Landing right now, much less more of a threat. I feel bad for the cat lover, but can’t see him making it. I can, however, see the little girl getting through it all. And as she as about as pure a Lannister as you can get, would be the eventual Lady of Casterly Rock. Don’t see Tyrion marrying.

I think this is a good precedent for Hands to set. Part and parcel of why Aerys was so threatened by Tywin is because he was the most powerful lord in the seven kingdoms in addition to running his government. If you take that out of the equation, which would limit the candidates of Hand to second (and 3,4, not to mention daughters damnit) sons, that eliminates most of the threat from a Hand more popular than the King. I think this is another rule that should be codified: any Hand must first rescind all potential inheritance rights upon taking office, with an insurance he/she will be provided an appropriate yet limited pension of lands and title upon retirement. Basically the same as the KG, except you can still publicly acknowledge you have sex and can even have a family as well. I think if you’re going to try to build a political structure based off the Westerosi framework, this is an essential caveat (which I love personally as I am a second son myself!)

Let’s get through the rest of them without so many tangents. I’m assuming Mace will die by the end, god-willing, so Willas runs the Reach. By all accounts, seems like an able ruler. The Stormlands have been diddled around, but once Jon/Dany allow ‘bastards’ to be legitimized for Kings, no reason they shouldn’t do it for others, especially Robert’s bastards which are his only true offspring. So Edric gets SE. Granted, Gendry is older but Edric is undoubtedly more palatable considering Robert knocked up a Florent in that case. Plus, Gendry has been through hell, he doesn’t deserve the annoyingness of playing the game that lord of SE would require and he’d wanna stay around the BWBs turf anyway. On top on that, my ideal would be Margaery to marry Edric – think it’d be poetic if she finally ended up with one of Robert’s actual sons.

As for Dorne, I think Doran will survive. He’s obviously just going to sit around with his gout like Ben Franklin, so I don’t see him necessarily kickin the bucket in the next few years. Regardless, when he does there is a clear line of succession, so it’s nice to know Dorne’s leadership is identifiable even post-Others. As for the Night’s Watch, the Old Bear’s dying wish is answered. Doubt the Wall will still be around, but Jorah has plenty to brood over in the cold anyway. Finally, my ideal Kingsguard:

Lord Commander: Blackfish

Loras Tyrell

Balon Swann

Andrik the Unsmiling

Archibald Yronwood

Lucas Corbray - (hopefully Lyn the pedophile is dead and I like balance…plus Lady Forlorn.)

An Umber – Seems almost no Northman have served the Kingsguard, but it’d be cool. Martin has referred to the Greatjon having many sons and brothers. I would assume those brothers have kids of their own as well, so sure there’s one available.

:bowdown: :bowdown: Well I read your entire post (yay me!) and I have to say its impressive stuff!

As a small small small side note... don't you need to be a Knight, anointed in the light of the Seven and all that to be part of the KG? Which is likely why there have been so few Northerners. But once again, bravo ser! :cheers:

[l2 0 5 5]

Stark- Rickon

Tully- Edmure

The Vale- Harry the Heir

Greyjoy- Aeron

Lannister- Martyn or Tyrek

Tyrell- Willas or Garlan

Martell- Trystane

Baratheon- Edric/Gendry

Frey- No idea really. Wasn't there a couple decent ones? Olyvar? I think Cat asked after him pre RW.

Bolton- Without a doubt extinguished and the Dreadfort will be given to a deserving Northerner. Maybe Robett if Galbart lives.

Targaryen- Dany/Jon??

[Ser Tahu]

Bolton- Without a doubt extinguished and the Dreadfort will be given to a deserving Northerner. Maybe Robett if Galbart lives.

Slightly off topic, but this raises an interesting question: What would become of the Dreadfort assuming the Boltons are wiped out and the North is still habitable at the end of the series?

Although it is possible that it could go to a Northerner, I think it could actually go to one of the Wildlings. But then the question is which one? There are 5 prominent candidates:

Sigorn - It seems likely that he, and by extension House Thenn, will be in control of Karhold by the end of the series through Alys, so that rules him out

Mance - I doubt that he will survive to see the end of the series, but if he does he would be the top candidate.

The Weeper - lol no.

Val - Possible, but I think it is unlikely due to her gender.

Tormund - My personal favourite. However, the problem here is that, unless I am much mistaken he is still at Castle Black at the time of Jon's death. I very much doubt that he will sit idly by after Jon, who he seems to consider a friend, is murdered, so it is entirely possible that he could die right at the start of TWoW. If he does stay alive, though, I can picture him being awarded the Dreadfort.

EDIT: Just out of curiosity, If Tormund is Lorded and forms House Giantsbane, I wonder what his sigil would be? My first thought would be a giant, but that is very similar to the Umber's sigil. My next thought was a bear, but House Mormont uses that...

EDIT 2: Perhaps a horn? He has referred to himself as 'horn-blower'.

[Petyr Patter]

Slightly off topic, but this raises an interesting question: What would become of the Dreadfort assuming the Boltons are wiped out and the North is still habitable at the end of the series?

I made a suggestion on page nine, which I'll repeat here. Mance with wife "Arya Stark," through wardship of Ramsay's "son," born more than 10 months after his death. No one complains.

[DMC]

:bowdown: :bowdown: Well I read your entire post (yay me!) and I have to say its impressive stuff!

As a small small small side note... don't you need to be a Knight, anointed in the light of the Seven and all that to be part of the KG? Which is likely why there have been so few Northerners. But once again, bravo ser! :cheers:

Thanks for the kind words. You're certainly right about the tradition, although obviously Clegane broke that. Also pretty sure Alyn (one of Ned's household guards that went up to the Riverlands with Beric) always dreamed of being a knight, so I would assume at least some Northman have been knighted throughout history. Either way, let's just say I agree with Sander in regards to the ultimate pointlessness of being knighted.

[Han Snow]

Slightly off topic, but this raises an interesting question: What would become of the Dreadfort assuming the Boltons are wiped out and the North is still habitable at the end of the series?

Although it is possible that it could go to a Northerner, I think it could actually go to one of the Wildlings. But then the question is which one? There are 5 prominent candidates:

Sigorn - It seems likely that he, and by extension House Thenn, will be in control of Karhold by the end of the series through Alys, so that rules him out

Mance - I doubt that he will survive to see the end of the series, but if he does he would be the top candidate.

The Weeper - lol no.

Val - Possible, but I think it is unlikely due to her gender.

Tormund - My personal favourite. However, the problem here is that, unless I am much mistaken he is still at Castle Black at the time of Jon's death. I very much doubt that he will sit idly by after Jon, who he seems to consider a friend, is murdered, so it is entirely possible that he could die right at the start of TWoW. If he does stay alive, though, I can picture him being awarded the Dreadfort.

EDIT: Just out of curiosity, If Tormund is Lorded and forms House Giantsbane, I wonder what his sigil would be? My first thought would be a giant, but that is very similar to the Umber's sigil. My next thought was a bear, but House Mormont uses that...

EDIT 2: Perhaps a horn? He has referred to himself as 'horn-blower'.

His sigil would most definitely be a ...Giant member...

[The Crow's Third Eye]

Can I add in my ideal Small Council (or the Great Council, a polar opposite to Cersei's Smallest Council) - This is based on Daenerys as Queen:

Hand of the Queen: Tyrion Lannister - Ideal candidate for the position, apart from perhaps he may be untrustworthy. He has shown he is very intelligent and capable of dealing with difficult situations (The run-up to the Battle of the Blackwater). Alternatively, if Tyrion was to die then I would have to go with Mathis Rowan. From the little we know about him so far he seems very clever and fair, I think he would be a good Hand. It may be stretching to say he would support Dany but the Reach were always Targ supporters.

Lord Commander of the Queensguard: Grey Worm - Dany has made him a commander of the Unsullied and he has shown he is a very capable commander. Furthermore, he must be a good fighter as the Unsullied are considered some of the greatest infantry in Planetos. With the help of the Dothraki and Knights around him, he would also become a good rider. My other choice would have been Ser Barristan but I am not convinced he will survive, plus he is getting old and would not keep the post for very long.

Master of Coin: Garth the Gross - he has already been suggested by Kevan and Tywin, and Tywin is certainly a clever man; he wouldn't choose Garth if he wasn't suited to the job. Added to that the fact he comes from a wealthy family, and you have a good candidate.

Master of Laws and Justice: Missandei - she is extremely clever for her age, and is someone who favours peace. This means she wouldn't act out in ways which may cause violence and rebellion (I'm looking at beheading Ned there Joff...) At such a young age, she can clearly learn more, but I am sure that she would become a great Master of Justice in time. Alternative option, dependant on alliances, would be Stannis Baratheon.

Master of Whisperers: Arya Stark - because she is Arya ;) Seriously, with her FM training, he Syrio training, she is very good at gathering information by herself, and I believe given time she would set up a strong network of informants.

Master of Ships: Asha Greyjoy - She wanted to make peace with the North and bring the Iron Isles back into the 7Kingdoms. She is a great, powerful captain, and legitimate heir to the II if theon should die (I suspect he will, or stand aside).

Grand Maester - Marwyn or Samwell Tarly. It depends who survives

I would also add new offices for representatives of the major religions of Westeros to add extra voices and make the discussions fairer:

Representative of the Faith: Wasn't too sure about this but I will say Septon Meribald for now, because I simply love this guy.

Representative of the Old Gods: Brandon Stark (duh?!)

Representative of the Red God/R'hollr: Benerro or Thoros (Moqorro concerns me)

Representative of the Drowned God: Aeron Greyjoy (who else?)

Tah Dah!