‘I’m not African-American,’ some blacks insist

[Mya Stone]

How can this be? Asians are white enough!

Yellow =/= white, Xray. :P

ETA: Oh, shit. Was this an RT thing?

[The Mance]

Ah. So an RT reference, and not anything to do with 1955 in particular.

[Robin Of House Hill]

Because your absurdly unfounded romanticizing of the "laconic '50s" is both entirely predictable*, and perfectly in keeping with the rest of your xenophobic (there, I said it) ramblings.

*So much so, that I very nearly put in a sarcastic prediction in my first post.

Actually, I wasn't romanticizing anything. 1955 was the first experience in my lifetime where the US admitted large amounts of political refugees. In 1956 after the Hungarian uprising, I was in the 5th or 6th grade and we got two kids in my class who had come from Hungary. One was a nice kid and wanted to learn. The other was a thug. I had no problem with the first kid, but couldn't understand why the second one was allowed to come here..

So, no guys, skin color wasn't the issue. It was failure to keep the bad apples out. And, reference by Datepalm about blacks and gays was dead wrong. My argument has only been about allowing foreign cultures and values create problems here.

[King Aerys the Just]

:lol: You're going to have to hone it down a bit more than that. People of different cultures have been "coming to shore" here all day, every day, since this country was founded. So exactly which arbitrary moment in history did you have in mind?

Well, while you are correct about USA always having contained diverse immigrant populations, I don't think that makes it impossible to argue that there exists a certain "american culture". The reason for this being the scale of historical immigration.

As of now, it would seem that white Americans are to 86% descended from northwestern Europeans, and up till about 40 years ago USA was 90% white. Considering this, I think it's pretty reasonable to say that US culture, historically and currently, is heavily northwestern European.

Get it?

[awesome possum]

Only East Asians. I don't think Indians are included.

I have an incredibly bigoted old aunt who I used to love to tweak like that. Whenever she'd rant about a race, it would inevitably lead to her litany of hates, but she always made sure to let any of us still listening that she liked Asians because they were so well-mannered and soft-spoken.

"But Aunt Myrtle, I thought you couldn't stand Iraqis?" I'd reply.

"WHAT?! Those $@*#*&%? I hope Mr. Bush (it was always Mr. Bush and Mr. Cheney and Mr. Rumsfeld) turns that godless place into a parking lot!"

"But Aunt Myrtle, Iraq is in Asia and you said you like Asians."

If my mom or uncle didn't smack me upside the head to stop my antagonizing her, she'd usually try to inform me she only meant she only liked the *insert racist Chinese name here*.

Also, bonus if they're bisexual hot chicks who like bobbleheads.

You forgot wearing school-girl uniforms and who like to giggle behind their hands constantly.

[Sci-2]

Yeah, us Indians always get a bad rap. I blame the crazy looking gods, because who doesn't like samosas and lamb curry? ;-P

[Datepalm]

Actually, I wasn't romanticizing anything. 1955 was the first experience in my lifetime where the US admitted large amounts of political refugees. In 1956 after the Hungarian uprising, I was in the 5th or 6th grade and we got two kids in my class who had come from Hungary. One was a nice kid and wanted to learn. The other was a thug. I had no problem with the first kid, but couldn't understand why the second one was allowed to come here..

So, no guys, skin color wasn't the issue. It was failure to keep the bad apples out. And, reference by Datepalm about blacks and gays was dead wrong. My argument has only been about allowing foreign cultures and values create problems here.

I see, the dissonance of values between white, christian america of 1955 and white, christian hungary of 1955 as embodied in, er, a badly behaved 5th grader destroyed american culture. Got it. (or are Slavs not white? Oh, wait, Hunagarians. basically Huns. Asians. Got it.)

[Robin Of House Hill]

Yeah, us Indians always get a bad rap. I blame the crazy looking gods, because who doesn't like samosas and lamb curry? ;-P

I like them...until the next morning, that is.

[Robin Of House Hill]

I see, the dissonance of values between white, christian america of 1955 and white, christian hungary of 1955 as embodied in, er, a badly behaved 5th grader destroyed american culture. Got it. (or are Slavs not white? Oh, wait, Hunagarians. basically Huns. Asians. Got it.)

No, you don't got it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_people

Hungarians are predominantly Magyars.

[salt]

I agree that the proponents of Shariah law are ignorant fucktards living in the 12 century, what I don't see is how its going to take over America because a few of them live there. Thats a hell of a big jump to make.

[The Mance]

Well, while you are correct about USA always having contained diverse immigrant populations, I don't think that makes it impossible to argue that there exists a certain "american culture". The reason for this being the scale of historical immigration.

As of now, it would seem that white Americans are to 86% descended from northwestern Europeans, and up till about 40 years ago USA was 90% white. Considering this, I think it's pretty reasonable to say that US culture, historically and currently, is heavily northwestern European.

Get it?

I'm sure that there are aspects of our society that could be defined as uniquely "american culture". No argument there. What i took exception to was that there could be some bright line moment in history where before = "American" and after = "dangerous mogrelization that we should be taking steps to fix."

And if a part of that "American culture" has historically been a willingness to accept, or at least allow, a diversity of cultures, then where and if people decide to start drawing lines says a lot about them and their prejudices.

Get it?

[King Aerys the Just]

I'm sure that there are aspects of our society that could be defined as uniquely "american culture". No argument there. What i took exception to was that there could be some bright line moment in history where before = "American" and after = "dangerous mogrelization that we should be taking steps to fix."

And if a part of that "American culture" has historically been a willingness to accept, or at least allow, a diversity of cultures, then where and if people decide to start drawing lines says a lot about them and their prejudices.

Get it?

Hm, no I can't really say that I get it. If we can agree that USA since it's founding has been firmly northwestern European in both culture and population, then there would never have been significant "mongrelization" or what choose to you call it taking place.

That USA has tolerated the influx of some numbers of people that deviate from this pattern is true enough. I would, however say that there is a certain difference between tolerating the prescence of different people in the state, and allowing them to start significantly influencing said state.

I don't think USA historically has been willing to let the latter happen any more than most other nations.

[Robin Of House Hill]

I agree that the proponents of Shariah law are ignorant fucktards living in the 12 century, what I don't see is how its going to take over America because a few of them live there. Thats a hell of a big jump to make.

No, it isn't going to "take over". They've sought to have it recognized by US courts to defend the actions of subscribers to Sharia law, so they can justify their actions when they violate US law. No, they are not ignorant. They know that other groups have tried to get US courts to accept what is commonplace in some cultures as a means to ameliorate the severity of acts committed against US law. For example, the father who comes from a country where the mutilation of female genitals is practiced, gets charged with all kind of crimes here when he takes his daughter, against her will, to have her clitoris removed, asserts to the court that what he did is commonplace in his culture and should therefore, be considered by the court.

[Nukelavee]

I don't even..

I'm curious, are discussing the values people like to imagine Americans have, or the real ones?

He has a point, tho, why import Hungarian thugs when you have so many fine domestic models?

[TerraPrime]

That USA has tolerated the influx of some numbers of people that deviate from this pattern is true enough. I would, however say that there is a certain difference between tolerating the prescence of different people in the state, and allowing them to start significantly influencing said state.

Tolerated? How about, benefitted from?

At any rate, it's nice to know that your notion for a new American citizen is that they should just keep quiet and not have a say in what being American means. Only people descended from northwestern European country immigrants (so that'll exclude what, Italians, Polish, Russians, and Jews, Asians, and former slaves) in the U.S. gets to decide what being American means.

If I had to guess, I'm going to say that you happen to be someone descended from immigrants from northwestern Europe?

And certainly, we have never let immigrants dictate our cultural heritage and traditions. Pizza has been the most favorite food in the U.S. since Mayflower landed at Plymouth, don't you know? And we certainly won't be silly enough to try to dye a whole river in Boston green to celebrate some mythical snake-chaser from Ireland.

[Angalin]

So, no guys, skin color wasn't the issue. It was failure to keep the bad apples out.

At the risk of derailing the thread from its American-ness, what does the bolded statement above say about Australia? :P

He has a point, tho, why import Hungarian thugs when you have so many fine domestic models?

Those ones are all hyphenated. Hungarian-American is such a mouthful, nobody bothers with the qualifier.

[Sci-2]

For example, the father who comes from a country where the mutilation of female genitals is practiced, gets charged with all kind of crimes here when he takes his daughter, against her will, to have her clitoris removed, asserts to the court that what he did is commonplace in his culture and should therefore, be considered by the court.

I'm curious, has this ever resulted in an acquittal? Because people will use all kinds of defenses all the time.

I think the strange thing is you have plausible economic argument, but I think if anything people become more instilled with American values the longer they live here.

[King Aerys the Just]

Tolerated? How about, benefitted from?

Probably, otherwise I doubt they'd have been allowed to immigrate.

At any rate, it's nice to know that your notion for a new American citizen is that they should just keep quiet and not have a say in what being American means. Only people descended from northwestern European country immigrants (so that'll exclude what, Italians, Polish, Russians, and Jews, Asians, and former slaves) in the U.S. gets to decide what being American means.

Not really. What I'm saying is that American culture historically is Anglo-Saxon, Christian (mostly protestant) and Germanic, even though there has been certain other groups of people moving there I don't think they have been many enough to change that.

What I dispute is the claim that "American culture cannot be defined because it has always been a melting pot", that USA has always been completely okay with having completely different mindsets influencing the country etc. Because it's not true. At least not until quite recently.

I do wonder why you try to spin this piece of historical information to mean that I personally only think that northern Europeans should be allowed in politics or something equally absurd. Is it some clever personal attack, or just poor reading comprehension?

If I had to guess, I'm going to say that you happen to be someone descended from immigrants from northwestern Europe?

Nope.

And certainly, we have never let immigrants dictate our cultural heritage and traditions. Pizza has been the most favorite food in the U.S. since Mayflower landed at Plymouth, don't you know? And we certainly won't be silly enough to try to dye a whole river in Boston green to celebrate some mythical snake-chaser from Ireland.

Blah, If you call that sweaty cheese bread pizza then you can never have been to Italy. Next you are going to call Bud Light beer, right?

As for the Irish I wouldn't say they are very different from their neighbours, even though the English used to have "quite" racist propaganda against them in the past http://abagond.files...jpg?w=500&h=289 :dunno:

I would also say that there is a huge difference between having a commercial holiday celebrating something inspired from another culture (such as Saint Patrick's) or eating and imported food course, and that culture having a noticeable influence in the country. I mean, I can get pizza in Mongolia and Zimbabwe as well. That doesn't mean that those countries are particularly Italian.

[The Mance]

That USA has tolerated the influx of some numbers of people that deviate from this pattern is true enough. I would, however say that there is a certain difference between tolerating the prescence of different people in the state, and allowing them to start significantly influencing said state.

Well, the US since it's founding has been "largely" nw European, though, to an ever decreasing extent. Though I'm not sure what you think that means in terms of cultural homogeneousness (sp?). But what we are talking about here, is whether "American culture" is defined as "the culture of the majority despite the minority" or "the culture of the whole given the context of having a significant minority. The US has always had some amount of minority influence, and that influence has always been shaped by the rate and diversity of immigration. What is most telling is the point at which one believes that the influence has risen past acceptable melting pot levels.

[Robin Of House Hill]

I'm curious, has this ever resulted in an acquittal? Because people will use all kinds of defenses all the time.

I think the strange thing is you have plausible economic argument, but I think if anything people become more instilled with American values the longer they live here.

To be honest, I don't know, though I doubt it. What scares me is that in the absence of a clear prohibition of considering such arguments, each judge can make his/her own rulings. I think it is only a matter of time before one does consider it.

Is it OK if I take time out for lunch and to walk the dog? :unsure: