Heresy 10

[Lummel]

...Similarly I'm a bit wary of where the Winter/Long Night comes from. As Maester Luwin tells the story the First Men and the Children fought each other ragged, then agreed the Pact and lived happily ever after until the Andals came. Somehow the Winter as a random event, a blip (albeit a massive one) doesn't ring true. So was it connected with the was between the First Men and the Children. We've discussed before and in the end come down against the notion that it was the apocalypse that forced the First Men to negotiate, but what if it was a consequence, a reverberation of something that happened earlier. What I'm wondering is whether the Hammer of the Waters business set in train a chain reaction culminating years later in the release of the White Cold. A constant theme of the Song of Ice and Fire is unintended consequences and while GRRM has confirmed that the imbalance in the seasons has a magical origin it doesn't necessarily follow that the imbalance was a direct and deliberate creation.

The problem with an ice age theory is that the ice age would come before teh breaking of the arm of Dorne so the order of events would look a bit weird: men and children fight, children unleash the ice age, men make peace, the ice melts and floods the land bridge. Also strictly speaking the land bridge would have been the result of low sea levels in that scenerio - ie caused by an ice age.

Although obviously since this is a fantasy novel GRRM can always say that a wizard did it.

It doesn't match up with Maester Lutwin's narrative in which the breaking of the arm of dorne was only an incident in the war. It's also hard to believe that men would have endured a mega-winter but decided to fight on until the land bridge was broken.

[Bran Vras]

Maybe someone has thought about the following question: why did the Night's Watch adopt the colour black? The Watch predates feudalism in Westeros, so it's probably not to distinguish itself from all established nobility. In other words, I am not sure that the absence of colour=absence of allegiance metaphor was relevant so far back in time.

While watching the show I noticed that Arya described the crown on house Dustin's banner as black (a detail not in the books, but the wiki and the Citadel mention it). That crown seems to refer to the First King of the first men supposedly buried in the Barrowlands. So the colour black seems attached to some very old in first men culture. (More detail in my last post in the Stone against Wood thread.)

[Black Crow]

The problem with an ice age theory is that the ice age would come before teh breaking of the arm of Dorne so the order of events would look a bit weird: men and children fight, children unleash the ice age, men make peace, the ice melts and floods the land bridge. Also strictly speaking the land bridge would have been the result of low sea levels in that scenerio - ie caused by an ice age.

Although obviously since this is a fantasy novel GRRM can always say that a wizard did it.

It doesn't match up with Maester Lutwin's narrative in which the breaking of the arm of dorne was only an incident in the war. It's also hard to believe that men would have endured a mega-winter but decided to fight on until the land bridge was broken.

I agree insofar as the breaking of the Arm and the Long Night/Winter don't appear to be directly connected, but on the other hand this (earthly) precedent does provide an elternative explanation to the popular impact theory.

[Dreadnaught]

What is interesting about the lone Other/Sidhe below the Fist, isn't that he was riding the horse, but that finding the three stragglers he slid off it to approach them on foot, which again hints at slightly less than aggressive behaviour.

I think it could still be aggressive behaviour. The WW knows that it can beat them easily, it thinks it's superior and has nothing to be afraid of. So no need to rush or suprise them, it probably thinks it will just walk up to them and slaughter them easily.

[Black Crow]

Arrogance is certainly an option; he is after all one of the Sidhe, but its still a long way from the cold dead things hating all life which we were told of by Old Nan. :cool4:

[alienarea]

I think it could still be aggressive behaviour. The WW knows that it can beat them easily, it thinks it's superior and has nothing to be afraid of. So no need to rush or suprise them, it probably thinks it will just walk up to them and slaughter them easily.

That could be a hint that the Others don't know how to fight on horseback and the horse is a transportation device only.

Or, the horse is valuable and can't be risked in a fight. That would indicate the Others can travel fast by foot/need to travel greater distances.

[Onion Ring Knight]

As to the land bridge it has long been known that there was such a land bridge between Britain and France in what's now the Pas de Calais, which was destroyed catastophically a few thousand years ago. I don't recall the precise detail but its reckoned that most of what's the North Sea was also dry land but much lower. An ice age blocked the Rhine outlet to the north and this low-lying land gradually filled up as a huge fresh-water lake which eventually burst through the chalk dam at the southern end.

Well, I don't think that's QUITE true - at least not the "catastrophically" part in that the Channel opened up instantly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doggerland

[Francis Buck]

I agree that I think the White Walker with the horse was basically just toying with them; it had no way of knowing Sam had obsidian, and it probably thought that it could take them on with no difficulty at all.

Although I do like the idea of "wightification" being a disease-like concept (possibly related to the white-mists), I do also believe that the Others are controlling them to some degree, and I almost certainly think they're using them as a weapon, or shock-troops. I'm also not entirely unconvinced that they're being warged in some fashion, since much their behavior and seems to flip-flop between intelligent and straight zombie, and because of the ending of Varamyr's prologue. It's entirely possible that the white mist is still what actually "reanimates" them, however.

[Black Crow]

Well, I don't think that's QUITE true - at least not the "catastrophically" part in that the Channel opened up instantly.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Doggerland

The wikipedia article cited attributes the separation of Britain from the Continent to the Storegga landslide and I'm pretty sure I've seen something recently about underwater scour marks in the chalk on the south side of the breach.

The point once again is that a huge landslide, triggering a tsunami is more likely to be responsible for the breaking of the Arm than the impact of something chunky from the sky - especially if it really was down to the Children rather than co-incidence. We've already seen GRRM warn that Bran the Builder probably didn't build the Wall (if he ever existed) so there's no reason why the same should't be true here and that it was a natural random catastrophe attributed in folklore to those pesky Children.

[Black Crow]

I agree that I think the White Walker with the horse was basically just toying with them; it had no way of knowing Sam had obsidian, and it probably thought that it could take them on with no difficulty at all.

Although I do like the idea of "wightification" being a disease-like concept (possibly related to the white-mists), I do also believe that the Others are controlling them to some degree, and I almost certainly think they're using them as a weapon, or shock-troops. I'm also not entirely unconvinced that they're being warged in some fashion, since much their behavior and seems to flip-flop between intelligent and straight zombie, and because of the ending of Varamyr's prologue. It's entirely possible that the white mist is still what actually "reanimates" them, however.

My biggest problem with the "controlling" theory is how its achieved. I don't have a problem with Othor and Jafer having been warged because they're two individuals, but I really can't see a couple of Others/Sidhe sitting orchestrating a whole army of them, including the odd half rotted bear. We're told they can "smell" life or rather heat signatures. The Sidhe/Others obviously have no heat signature and may effectively be invisible to them, so any control may simply be a matter of herding them in the right direction - and then abandoning them to wander when no longer required.

[Iceborn]

The problem is that we don't know how people become infected, most of those who die in the north come back according to tormund and the NW survivors, but Jon's ped corpses stay dead, some attribute this to the wall, however the controlling is broken by the othor jafer argument are the walkers "braught by the cold or the cold the walkers?"

[alienarea]

I agree that I think the White Walker with the horse was basically just toying with them; it had no way of knowing Sam had obsidian, and it probably thought that it could take them on with no difficulty at all.

Although I do like the idea of "wightification" being a disease-like concept (possibly related to the white-mists), I do also believe that the Others are controlling them to some degree, and I almost certainly think they're using them as a weapon, or shock-troops. I'm also not entirely unconvinced that they're being warged in some fashion, since much their behavior and seems to flip-flop between intelligent and straight zombie, and because of the ending of Varamyr's prologue. It's entirely possible that the white mist is still what actually "reanimates" them, however.

In my opinion the Varamyr prologue can't serve as an example here because he was a warg, I assume this is why Thistle-wight sees him.

Also, the White Walker riding suggests that the cold comes with the White Walkers - if it were vice versa he wouldn't be riding. Now if the cold comes with the White Walkers it makes sense he rides - the cold comes quicker, a strategic advantage - and it makes sense to descend from the horse for fighting - the WW can't be hurt except with obsidian but he horse.

[CloudFlare]

Yes it's quite common to find yews in church yards and similar - yew is poisonous so farmers tended to remove them from their lands if they kept livestock, on the other hand yew wood is useful because of its flexibility (English longbows were made of yew, it is very bendy) so as a practical compromise yew trees were allowed to grow by churches where animals weren't meant to graze.

Speaking of trees and poison, the weirwood tree by the bridge leading to Marwyn's quarters is described like this:

It was cool and dim inside the castle walls. An ancient weirwood filled the yard, as it had since these stones had first been raised. The

carved face on its trunk was grown over by the same purple moss

that hung heavy from the tree’s pale limbs. Half of the branches seemed dead, but elsewhere a few red leaves still rustled, and it was there the ravens liked to perch.

The tree was full of them

, and there were more in the arched windows overhead, all around the yard. The ground was speckled by their droppings.

Hmm, the color purple indicates a poison of some sort. I'd assume the grey sheep are the ones trying to kill the tree off, but maybe Marwyn doesn't like the tree snooping on him?

[Black Crow]

In my opinion the Varamyr prologue can't serve as an example here because he was a warg, I assume this is why Thistle-wight sees him.

Also, the White Walker riding suggests that the cold comes with the White Walkers - if it were vice versa he wouldn't be riding. Now if the cold comes with the White Walkers it makes sense he rides - the cold comes quicker, a strategic advantage - and it makes sense to descend from the horse for fighting - the WW can't be hurt except with obsidian but he horse.

I'd tend to argue the other way around. In folklore the Sidhe are said to ride the wind and we're told by some that the White Walkers appear out of mist or falling snow - the implication being that they travel as mist and assume a corporeal form on arrival. I wonder however if riding dead horses or anything else that comes handy indicates that this is just a story to explain why they appear "as if by magic" when in fact its their stealth armour (per the Wood Dancers) that allows them to pass unseen, especially if shunning direct sunlight. Therefore light and fleet of foot though they may be, four legs may yet be better than two.

On a slight tangent, someone on another thread referred to their speaking when they did for Ser Waymar Royce in the AGoT prologue - it occurs to me that if they need to communicate verbally that would rather rule out the ocasional theory(based on what i don't know) that they may have a hive mind. They're clearly individuals.

[jon rr stark]

I'd tend to argue the other way around. In folklore the Sidhe are said to ride the wind and we're told by some that the White Walkers appear out of mist or falling snow - the implication being that they travel as mist and assume a corporeal form on arrival. I wonder however if riding dead horses or anything else that comes handy indicates that this is just a story to explain why they appear "as if by magic" when in fact its their stealth armour (per the Wood Dancers) that allows them to pass unseen, especially if shunning direct sunlight. Therefore light and fleet of foot though they may be, four legs may yet be better than two.

On a slight tangent, someone on another thread referred to their speaking when they did for Ser Waymar Royce in the AGoT prologue - it occurs to me that if they need to communicate verbally that would rather rule out the ocasional theory(based on what i don't know) that they may have a hive mind. They're clearly individuals.

Perhaps the cold is sent before them by the great other as the dark clouds in LotR. Or maybe its just like the spanish inquisition!

[Black Crow]

I don't there is a Great Other, but I do think there's two possible explanations for it, either the White Cold is a natural but deadly phenomenon, spewing up out of the earth and is what Bran saw when the Three-eyed Crow showed him the World, or...

If the Others/Sidhe do come from a land of Faerie which is slightly out of sync with the rest of Martin's world, it might be the draught when they open the door between their cold world and Westeros.

On the whole I'm much inclined to go with the first option given that the Sidhe/Others have been around in the interval between the Long Night/Winter without trailing Wights in their wake, while the White Cold and current crop of Wights seem much more recent.

[lokisnow]

While we all know the seasons are out of whack because of magic, here's a fun article on some science that might explain it.

http://io9.com/5906300/5-scientific-explanations-for-game-of-thrones-messed+up-seasons

[Black Crow]

Nice one. The various instabilities could I suppose be imposed by magic, but as always it depends what GRRM knows and has decided to work into his books.

On the whole loss of a moon seems a pretty good candidate - maybe it got swiped by the red star.

[Bran Vras]

Speaking of trees and poison, the weirwood tree by the bridge leading to Marwyn's quarters is described like this:

It was cool and dim inside the castle walls. An ancient weirwood filled the yard, as it had since these stones had first been raised. The

carved face on its trunk was grown over by the same purple moss

that hung heavy from the tree’s pale limbs. Half of the branches seemed dead, but elsewhere a few red leaves still rustled, and it was there the ravens liked to perch.

The tree was full of them

, and there were more in the arched windows overhead, all around the yard. The ground was speckled by their droppings.

Hmm, the color purple indicates a poison of some sort. I'd assume the grey sheep are the ones trying to kill the tree off, but maybe Marwyn doesn't like the tree snooping on him?

Purple scale for the weirwoods?

[Iceborn]

Nice one. The various instabilities could I suppose be imposed by magic, but as always it depends what GRRM knows and has decided to work into his books.

On the whole loss of a moon seems a pretty good candidate - maybe it got swiped by the red star.

I think we went over this but... the dothraki think that a moon split open and dragons came out, also do we know the history of dragons in relation to the long winter/night?