Heresy 10

[Black Crow]

Black Crow I remember seeing a post you made about how the Starks had married CotF and can't seem to find it. Could you post a link to the conversation or just repost the evidence for this?

I don't recall the details, but one of the Starks married into the Crannogmen, who are reckoned to be Children.

[Black Crow]

Does anyone else think the wights bring the cold with them?

It seems the cold magic annimates them so the cold is with them when they come. In the cases when we see wights it is colder where they are and they are described in ways so you can know how cold they are. In the cases you could say the WW are near so that's why it's cold but not in one case, Othor.

Othor is on the other side of the Wall and Jon remarks on how cold it is then when describing Othor's eyes Jon says frost covered it's sparkling blue eyes. Not to mention the "queer cold smell" the wights have.

I just think the are creatures of cold also and we can't assume that WW are near just because of the extreme cold. I think this says the "white cold mist" could be what activates the wights and it might need to stay with them. Like how the ice from the Wall melts when Mel walks through the tunnel. It just seems like some think the cold when the wights are near is from WW being close so I wanted to see if anyone else thought that wasn't necessarily so.

Its something we've discussed in the past few pages. Its the White Cold that seems to be responsible for both killing and then reanimating the dead as Wights. Its possible that the Others/Sidhe can also do it on an individual basis - as Thoros and Moqorro can do, but raising of the dead as Wights on an "industrial" scale must surely require the White Cold - as seen by Mel in her vision.

Whether having once been re-animated they need that same cold to sustain them is an interesting question.

[Ser Leftwich]

snip

One thing that struck me is that Bran had a body in his dream, and that body could fly to beyond the curtain of light. There he saw the bodies of other dreamers impaled on the white icy spikes beneath. He was only there in spirit, in a dream state, but he brought a version of his physical body there. So the impaled dreamers have bodies remaining in the real world (dead I assume), and on spikes in the Otherworld their spiritual bodies. I don't know but I thought this could be important.

snip

Speaking of Bran's dream trip to the Land of Endless Winter and others like it at some point Euron talks of strange dreams when he was young. He has an eye injury, with a "special" eye and he seems to know things he shouldn't. Something like a failed attempt by BR to find a replacement.

I am guessing this has been brought up at some point, but I thought of it a bit ago and never voiced it.

[Ser Leftwich]

Wanted to provide actual quote. The Euron quote from AFfC, chapter = The Reaver. From my kindle, so no page number.

"When I was a boy, I dreamt that I could fly," he announced. "When I woke, I couldn't ... or so the maester said. But what if he was wrong."

This might be nothing more than similar dreams the Tyrion speaks of, but in conjunction with all of Euron's other mysterious ways, it may be something.

[Francis Buck]

Wanted to provide actual quote. The Euron quote from AFfC, chapter = The Reaver. From my kindle, so no page number.

"When I was a boy, I dreamt that I could fly," he announced. "When I woke, I couldn't ... or so the maester said. But what if he was wrong."

This might be nothing more than similar dreams the Tyrion speaks of, but in conjunction with all of Euron's other mysterious ways, it may be something.

Yeah, many of have theorized that Euron is actually a greenseer, and that he was possibly contacted by Bloodraven but maybe wasn't talented enough to become the "new" Three-Eyed Crow (or perhaps too evil?). Or that he actually somehow replaced one eye with that of a greenseer's, in order to give himself powers. It's hard to say, but I definitely agree there's something important going on with him, and I think he's likely to be some kind of warg at the very least, if not a true greenseer. It also seems a little too coincidental that his nickname is Crow's Eye, and he's missing one eye, and he had a dream about flying, while Bloodraven is the Three Eyed Crow, is missing one eye, and told Bran that he would be able to fly in a dream. There must be some connection there.

[Ivy Snow]

Yeah, many of have theorized that Euron is actually a greenseer, and that he was possibly contacted by Bloodraven but maybe wasn't talented enough to become the "new" Three-Eyed Crow (or perhaps too evil?). Or that he actually somehow replaced one eye with that of a greenseer's, in order to give himself powers. It's hard to say, but I definitely agree there's something important going on with him, and I think he's likely to be some kind of warg at the very least, if not a true greenseer. It also seems a little too coincidental that his nickname is Crow's Eye, and he's missing one eye, and he had a dream about flying, while Bloodraven is the Three Eyed Crow, is missing one eye, and told Bran that he would be able to fly in a dream. There must be some connection there.

Maybe Bloodraven took Euron's eye and that made him the 3 eyed crow O_O

[Artemis]

If you want to draw comparisons between a Song of Ice and Fire and some form of mythology, you need to look into Hindu mythology. You can draw direct comparisons. I would go into an analysis but there is so much to write I think it could be a thread all of its own!

If an analysis between Hindu mythology and ASoIaF is something that someone would want, just let me know and I will try to make it happen.

I would be very interested in hearing your analysis. I believe Lykos also suggested collecting such religious and mythological parallels and putting them all into a new thread.

[Black Crow]

Yeah, many of have theorized that Euron is actually a greenseer, and that he was possibly contacted by Bloodraven but maybe wasn't talented enough to become the "new" Three-Eyed Crow (or perhaps too evil?). Or that he actually somehow replaced one eye with that of a greenseer's, in order to give himself powers. It's hard to say, but I definitely agree there's something important going on with him, and I think he's likely to be some kind of warg at the very least, if not a true greenseer. It also seems a little too coincidental that his nickname is Crow's Eye, and he's missing one eye, and he had a dream about flying, while Bloodraven is the Three Eyed Crow, is missing one eye, and told Bran that he would be able to fly in a dream. There must be some connection there.

Perhaps Euron is one of those impaled on the spikes, having tried but failed to make the grade and "damaged" as a result.

[Eyron]

Euron dreamt he could fly, so he didn't fall to become impaled - if he had a dream like Bran's.

It's very interesting that Euron had a dream like that, but it doesn't seem like he is in Bran's league on mystical powers. Will have to think more on that, maybe there is some similarities in what Euron is doing and what Bran can do, could be something there. I have thought about it before, but couldn't come up with anything at that point.

[Lummel]

Going back to Tze's post about the parallels Bloodraven is a three eyed crow, Euron is one eyed. Euron drank shade of the evening, Bloodraven drank weirwood paste (presumably). What with his flying dream I'd be inclined to put him amongst the impaled dreamers too, he has mystical inclinations and big dreams but his focus seems to be selfish rather than selfless.

[Black Crow]

I agree. Bran was flying before he nearly fell and if he had woken up after falling he would still have had dreamed of flying.

I clearly haven't paid enough attention to Euron; did he too have a near death experience comparable with Bran's falling from the tower?

[Eyron]

Hm, I'm not sure I get it. Bran fell from high up above ground, and only stopped falling when he started to fly, it was his decision to fly when he was close to being impaled.

Fly or die he was told.

I can see that Euron could be one of the impaled ones, but if so he never flew, only fell. It could be that this is a case of the unreliable narrator, and he is not remembering correctly I guess.

[Nebmai]

One day I'm gonna post something productive in these, so much stuff for me too lurk on and its getting posted new nearly as fast as I'm reading it.

I got interested seeing some of the stuff in Heresy 9, so I started to read at 6 to catch up more or less; I'm started today on 7 now 10 is almost done, ack.

Carry on, I just posted this so I can laugh at myself later when I'm reading it and y'all will be on heresy 14.

[Lummel]

...Carry on, I just posted this so I can laugh at myself later when I'm reading it and y'all will be on heresy 14.

you do know don't you that you're not allowed to post at all in these thread less you've read every post in all the heresy threads ;).

Look, dive in, life is short, seize the day and all that kind of stuff. Got a question, an idea - never fear, post it. Maybe somebody had some good thoughts before, if we can refer you back to those and you come up with a new angle on that - great all the better.

ETA in fact you are probably best off posting first and then reading backwards if you are interested in something that has come up before.

[Lykos]

@Lummel: I think Euron´s dream of flying is again a mirror image to Bran´s dream. Euron wants to actively seize power, while power is bestowed on Bran.

@Black Crow: I think the only death experiences, near or all the way, Euron had were those of people he encountered. Though I have the feeling he might have gotten in too deep with the "red lot", he´s dealing in slavery and his ship, the Silence, has dark red hull. So he might be just kept alive as Melisandre is.

[Black Crow]

Post now Nebmai.

If its a question it may well have asked before and we can answer. If its an idea or an angle on an idea just go ahead, you may have picked something up that the rest of us have missed or it may simply be something we haven't considered but which makes perfect sense.

[Lummel]

...I think the only death experiences, near or all the way, Euron had were those of people he encountered. Though I have the feeling he might have gotten in too deep with the "red lot", he´s dealing in slavery and his ship, the Silence, has dark red hull. So he might be just kept alive as Melisandre is.

Hmm I'm thinking all the crew of the Silence are mutes, his servants are mutes, he's cut (or had cut) out all their tongues. He's denied them their voices.

By contrast Bllodraven Bloodraven and Bran are open to all the voices of the trees, the old gods and the greenseers. For them it is all about listening to others' voices.

[Black Crow]

It may not need to be a near-death experience as such. We have speculated in the past that Bloodraven was visited by the Three-Eyed-Crow while languishing in the black cells.

[Stark@heart]

About Euron. Something that stuck me when he was talking Vic into going after Dany. He says he wants her to make an heir worthy of "him".

That's the only time he slips into the third person.

So, was it just an odd phrase or is Euron up to something - maybe with the Warlocks? We know they have some kind of power as seen in the House of the Undying and a reason to destroy Dany and now Euron has 3 or 4 as thralls. I think Euron is making more than a play for kingship. I think he's learned something from the Warlocks and changed his plans, I don't think his goal is really the Iron Throne either.

Euron seems to me the kind that would enjoy the darker aspects of gaining power through magic - like sacrificing/burning other people. I think we'll see him do much worse.

[Lykos]

I think it depends on where the Undying stand. Euron definitely has a connection to them. I really want him on the opposing end of Bran and Bloodraven, I hate the guy.

ETA: @ Stark@heart: Euron tells Vic, that he wants the world, right after the story of the flying dream.