Heresy 10

[Stark@heart]

Has anyone else checked out the link above on the left, a peek inside HBO Game of Thrones?

Interesting history of the Long Night and the White Walkers. It seems they come because they just really don't like people or any warm-blooded living thing.

The HBO info makes them out to be just what they seemed, a force that is against man/life that has to be stopped/sent back by the Hero/Bran.

Since this is GRRM, there's gonna be a twist and I'm starting to fear that it may have something to do with the Starks, which I think was in one of the first posts of Black Crows that I read and hated. My eyes were reluctantly opened to the fact that not all is as it seems in GRRM's world and I've went through several crackpot theories of my own and dozens from other posters and still there's more to learn and debate but somehow I feel like I'm back to where I started with the Walkers. Oh Well. I'm glad Google is so good at tracking things from the threads, one day when the the series is over or a major reveal happens, I want to go back and see who all figured it out and who all argued the hardest against it. I wonder how many times I'll be on the "wrong" side?

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

I´ve heard than at Siberia, during winter, the cold makes iron and steel tool more fragile and they shatter more easily; it could be a legend, but if it´s true, that points to liquid N2 levels of cold being unnecesary; artic winter level of cold would be enough.

Without a doubt. You're quite right. Steel at -20 degrees C is more brittle than steel at 20 degress C. If his sword had become notched, and then broke, that's one thing. That would be understandable.

But taking that same well made steel sword, and shattering it into little shards, as if it were made of glass or ice.... That's not gonna be happening in the natural environment of any location on this planet, I don't think.

[Eyron]

I´ve heard than at Siberia, during winter, the cold makes iron and steel tool more fragile and they shatter more easily; it could be a legend, but if it´s true, that points to liquid N2 levels of cold being unnecesary; artic winter level of cold would be enough.

Iron gets brittle in cold yes, but the most interesting thing about that passage for me, was that this was during a time when iron was not used at all, or so I'm led to believe.

I tried to find out at what point bronze shatters but couldn't find anything. The common view is that iron was not used at the time (but I'm not sure we have any specific time-line on that, only that steel came with the Andals), but it's possible that our dear author never intended to specify those things and that it doesn't matter.

Without a doubt. You're quite right. Steel at -20 degrees C is more brittle than steel at 20 degress C. If his sword had become notched, and then broke, that's one thing. That would be understandable.

But taking that same well made steel sword, and shattering it into little shards, as if it were made of glass or ice.... That's not gonna be happening in the natural environment of any location on this planet, I don't think.

Steel can be brittle too, there are steel types that hold against very extreme colds, like the ones they use in space... But, I'm no expert in steel properties. I think the speed of the temperature fluctuations can be relevant too so I'm not sure "normal" temperature conditions are the only guidelines here. And we're talking about cold that would kill someone before the steel shatters I believe, allthough the impact of the swords clashing swords could also be relevant.

The white walkers didn't bring cold that killed in this case, but their weapons shattered Waymar's sword... Don't know if that is even possible. There is probably some magic involved in the weapons of the others so that could explain it. Idk. That is the best I've got so far. It's possible that we are digging too deep here.

[Maester Victor]

The brittle deformation, or shattering, of the steel or bronze will depend on the speed the force is taken, impurities, and like you mentioned previously, the temperature. I study deformation of rock and metal... at the Citadel.

[alienarea]

In a simplified equation White Walkers are ghosts in the snow. Or, as I put it in the TWoW forum, where most of you don't play:

(Jon) Snow + Ghost = White Walker

Thoughts?

[Howling Mad]

I posted this over in the general forum and didn't get much discussion so I thought I would see if there's any interest in the Heresy thread.

I think its possible that Mel orchestrated the assassination/attempted assassination of Lord Snow. Let me see if I can explain.

In aDwD (p. 902 HC) Mel admits to Jon that she has misread her visions:

“Your fires have been known to lie.”

“I have made mistakes, I have admitted as much, but--“

“A grey girl on a dying horse. Daggers in the dark. A promised prince, born in smoke and salt. It seems to me that you make nothing but mistakes, my lady. Where is Stannis? What of Rattleshirt and his spearwives? Where is my sister?”

“All your questions shall be answered. Look to the skies, Lord Snow. And when you have your answers, send to me. Winter is almost upon us now. I am your only hope.”

Mel's actions since aCoK appear to be designed to make Stannis fit the AA prophecy rather than the AA prophecy naturally fitting Stannis. For example Lightbringer appears to be a fake conjured by Mel to help Stannis fit into AA prophecy. In aSoS, Aemon comments about Lightbringer being cold to the touch and that the wood and leather sheath is not burned. Aemon therefore expects Lightbringer to have a natural heat, whether LB is a sword, dragon, or other object TBD.

We know from the Lord Beric BwB storyline that the Red Priest Thoros has the ability to breathe life back into the dead. Lord Beric himself also had this ability by sacrificing himself to bring back unCat at least several days after her death and the onset of decomposition. It’s logical then to assume that as a Red Priestess Mel has the same abilities as Thoros in regards to the breath of life.

Mel saw visions of Jon Snow in her fires when she was calling upon the R’hllor the Lord of Light to bring her news of Stannis and AA reborn. Mel knows she mixed up the vision of the grey girl on the horse confusing Alys Karstark and Arya Stark. It would be reasonable to assume that Mel would reconsider all of her based on this mix up. It is also safe to assume that Mel noticed Jon’s reaction to the prospect of Arya being alive and heading for Castle Black.

I think Mel finally realizes that she has been misinterpreting the visions not just about who is AA/tPtwP but about other things as well including how AA is reborn. What Mel does not change is her method of making the subject fit the prophecy.

I speculate that Mel wrote the letter that is attributed to Ramsey Bolton. The letter contains facts known to Mel such as Mance Rayder’s mission to rescue Arya but there is no evidence to support Ramsey being aware of these facts. The letter is written precisely to push Lord Snow’s buttons, things Mel could have learned by spending so much time with Jon, yet there again is no evidence to support Ramsey knowing how to push Jon’s buttons or that Ramsey even has the capability of writing such a letter. Mel knows from her time with Jon and her vision of “Daggers in the dark” how Jon Snow will react to such a letter and how the Bowen Marsh and the other assassins will react to the letter.

I believe Mel intended for Jon to die, not to be relieved of his NW vows, but to be reborn as AA/tPtwP. I think Mel has come to understand that being “reborn” means physical resurrection via the breath of life from the Lord of Light.

Smoke and Salt – in aDwD (p. 913 HC)

“Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger’s hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking.”

I speculate that the salt and smoke prophecy will be met in full at Jon’s funeral pyre, smoke from the fire, special salts tossed in by Mel for color mayhap, or the salt of tears from the mourners. Either way before the body can be burned Mel will kiss Jon with fire and breathe life back into him.

Loose ends – what about Jon’s ability to warg into Ghost? Being resurrected by the Red priest/priestess does not require the subject to be a warg. However there is some evidence to support that the time between death and resurrection and the number of times you are resurrected may cause diminished mental capacity. Therefore, Jon’s ability to warg ghost between his death and resurrection may be to help Jon’s intellect to remain intact. Another possibility is by being forced to warg into Ghost will teach Jon to become a competent skinchager and may serve to connect Jon with Bran the greensear.

That’s it fire away.

[Howling Mad]

In a simplified equation White Walkers are ghosts in the snow. Or, as I put it in the TWoW forum, where most of you don't play:

(Jon) Snow + Ghost = White Walker

Thoughts?

It would make for a great POV in TWoW.

[Black Crow]

Has anyone else checked out the link above on the left, a peek inside HBO Game of Thrones?

Interesting history of the Long Night and the White Walkers. It seems they come because they just really don't like people or any warm-blooded living thing.

The HBO info makes them out to be just what they seemed, a force that is against man/life that has to be stopped/sent back by the Hero/Bran.

Since this is GRRM, there's gonna be a twist and I'm starting to fear that it may have something to do with the Starks, which I think was in one of the first posts of Black Crows that I read and hated. My eyes were reluctantly opened to the fact that not all is as it seems in GRRM's world and I've went through several crackpot theories of my own and dozens from other posters and still there's more to learn and debate but somehow I feel like I'm back to where I started with the Walkers. Oh Well. I'm glad Google is so good at tracking things from the threads, one day when the the series is over or a major reveal happens, I want to go back and see who all figured it out and who all argued the hardest against it. I wonder how many times I'll be on the "wrong" side?

We had a bit of this conversation with either Corbon or Free Northman (I forget which - sorry) following the cast interviews included in the DVD version of Series 1. The HBO stuff in whatever format reflects and has to reflect what's known about the Others/White Walkers in AGoT, not what's starting to come out now. If we assume, just for the sake of argument, that the heresy of a Stark connection is true, you'd hardly expect it to be revealed as a spoiler this early.

[Bran Vras]

We had a bit of this conversation with either Corbon or Free Northman (I forget which - sorry) following the cast interviews included in the DVD version of Series 1. The HBO stuff in whatever format reflects and has to reflect what's known about the Others/White Walkers in AGoT, not what's starting to come out now. If we assume, just for the sake of argument, that the heresy of a Stark connection is true, you'd hardly expect it to be revealed as a spoiler this early.

Yes, the document appears to be a presentation of the series. So it's likely to contain only a superficial understanding of the nature of the Others etc.

However, the TV show is a useful source of information about the story, especially since the writers of the various episodes had to leave out many inessential elements of the series, and keep some essential ones even if they appeared minor to us in the books.

I mentioned upthread the black crown of the Dustins/Ryswells, never mentioned before ADwD. About Craster, there is the large gold ring well in evidence in the first and third episodes, and the axe given by Mormont, the animal heads mounted on spikes, the pigs we hear (in the third episode). All these elements have been kept for no apparent reasons. There are a few modified things of interest: Mormont says "We need men like Craster" (and not "We need Craster", which seems to indicate that Craster is not an isolated case), Mormont is perhaps even more reverent to Craster than he is in the book. The scene where Sam gives Gilly the sewing tool (is it a die or a reel?) has been made for the show. It might replace the scene in ASoS where Sam sings for Gilly's son a birthing song of the Faith from her mother.

[Black Crow]

I thought it was some kind of spinning toy...

But yes, otherwise I agree. Shortcuts have to be made in filming and its significant - largely in hindsight having read the books - to see what's included or inserted as significant. There isn't room for padding on the screen. Tyrion making Bron captain of the City Watch doesn't really change the story but it avoids having to introduce a new and unsignificant character. What we do see is seen (and heard) for a reason; hence not just the Other/Sidhe collecting the changeling, but the crow taking wing and the other crows chattering as Jon follows Craster.

[Prince of Braavos]

Going along with the whole "fire and ice are both evil" thing, has anybody mentioned that the weirwood trees have red leaves and sap (fire) and white trunks (ice)? It definitely lends credence to the idea that the Old Gods/COTF have something to do with maintaining balance between two destructive forces.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

It's possible that we are digging too deep here.

We have a bit of a tendency to do that on this thread. I think a solid 90% of our posts would fall into that category.

I thought it was a thimble. Didn't he mention something about his mother sewwing?

Also... reconsidering the "call me when you have your answers, Lord Snow" statement from Mel....

Maybe Melisandre shall be brought to Jon, who is dying from the knife wounds. She'll heal him in a manner not unlike Moqorro & Victarion? The Bran vision of the warmth leaving him could still be accurate, and he's still a warg, so Mel's vision of Man, wolf, man is still okay.

[Black Crow]

Also... reconsidering the "call me when you have your answers, Lord Snow" statement from Mel....

Maybe Melisandre shall be brought to Jon, who is dying from the knife wounds. She'll heal him in a manner not unlike Moqorro & Victarion? The Bran vision of the warmth leaving him could still be accurate, and he's still a warg, so Mel's vision of Man, wolf, man is still okay.

Nah, everthing else in the Bran vision was definitely in real time rather than a prophecy and the the bit about warmth leaving Jon was immediately followed by a Jon POV in which he mused that he would soon lose all memory of being warm, and we also learned he was sleeping alone in one of the towers, so there's no doubt Bran was seeing him as he then was rather than as he would be.

And again we come back to the Varamyr prologue where real death was experienced as sudden icy cold... which indicates that his body is actually dead (and not just wounded and waiting for Mel to kiss his hurts better) and that he's slipped into Ghost until such time as somebody can figure a way of getting him out again.

[Lummel]

It's possible that we are digging too deep here.

NEVER! :commie:

At this point in time it is impossible to tell. A lot of theorys, even sensible seeming ones, fall by the wayside as each book is published. And who knows what GRRM has researched and what he has shrugged over and thought to himself 'Meh, a wizard did it'?

[Eyron]

NEVER! :commie:

At this point in time it is impossible to tell. A lot of theorys, even sensible seeming ones, fall by the wayside as each book is published. And who knows what GRRM has researched and what he has shrugged over and thought to himself 'Meh, a wizard did it'?

:lol:

That is what I keep thinking in the back of my head... When something doesn't seem to work scientifically or reasonably, it's probably magic... And GRRM knows a lot of stuff, but he can't possibly know every detail of every aspect of everything. So somethings, most likely, are left vague because there was no purpose in going deeper into it for the story to work. Meh, a wizard did it :laugh:

I really wonder what ideas GRRM have decidedly left behind, what loose ends there are in the story? Considering his *gardener* approach, there should be some storylines that he started and then never continued with as the books progressed...

[Black Crow]

I suspect this is true of a lot of the seeming "clues" about the various other houses. In the end this story is going to be resolved by the major POV characters and there will either be a lot of loose threads or a lot of dead bodies or both that will turn out to have had no real impact on that ending. The clever bit is spotting which clues are significant and its here that the TV series, by paring the story down to the bare bones, is important in revealing what those bare bones are.

[Elaena Targaryen]

Yes on the show vs book I'm curious about the obsidian and horn that Ghost and Jon finds, it seems like they should have shown that in the last episode. I'll have to wait and see what happens tonight but I'm sure they will either work it out with Sam finding it or something similar and I just hope they don't leave it out all together.

**************************

Does anyone else think the wights bring the cold with them?

It seems the cold magic annimates them so the cold is with them when they come. In the cases when we see wights it is colder where they are and they are described in ways so you can know how cold they are. In the cases you could say the WW are near so that's why it's cold but not in one case, Othor.

Othor is on the other side of the Wall and Jon remarks on how cold it is then when describing Othor's eyes Jon says frost covered it's sparkling blue eyes. Not to mention the "queer cold smell" the wights have.

I just think the are creatures of cold also and we can't assume that WW are near just because of the extreme cold. I think this says the "white cold mist" could be what activates the wights and it might need to stay with them. Like how the ice from the Wall melts when Mel walks through the tunnel. It just seems like some think the cold when the wights are near is from WW being close so I wanted to see if anyone else thought that wasn't necessarily so.

[Cryler]

Black Crow I remember seeing a post you made about how the Starks had married CotF and can't seem to find it. Could you post a link to the conversation or just repost the evidence for this?

[Iceborn]

On the topic of orchestrated deaths, who else thinks that bloodraven was possessing jamie when he pushed bran, it is quite out of charichter (we know as it is said by catelyn jaime would have stabbed and made a clean job of it, not a chance of bran surviving, a paralised bran can't leave the cave and it is a nice excuse for a coma in which to contact him.

[Bran Vras]

On the topic of orchestrated deaths, who else thinks that bloodraven was possessing jamie when he pushed bran, it is quite out of charichter (we know as it is said by catelyn jaime would have stabbed and made a clean job of it, not a chance of bran surviving, a paralised bran can't leave the cave and it is a nice excuse for a coma in which to contact him.

Certainly having Bran's paralysis left him few options in life. He had even to face the unsaid accusations of cowardice for not taking his own life. The quest for the three eyed crow was a desperate act, that might not have happened without the fall.

But it seems that stabbing Bran would have been the cause of many problems afterwards for Jaime. Pushing was far preferable since the fall appeared as an accident. If Bloodraven intervened (but how?) it was probably to save Bran.