Heresy 10

[Eyron]

I wonder why the white walker who Sam killed was riding a horse? Was his legs tired? They practically float above ground, and seem to move rather fast. Sam and co were walking, some were running (those on horses were far ahead at that point), so they shouldn't have come that far ahead I think.

Seems weird for someone from another dimension, made of magic and mist or whatever, to come to this world - see a horse - decide to give it a try. Seems like something someone ex-(post-?)human would do. Maybe they have dead horses on the Otherside too? Just struck me as weird.

[Cheese Pudding]

I don't like this idea of wighticism being a decease. Much more understandable if they were zombies made by the Others.

IMO Val was afraid of Shireen simply because Greyscale can be contagious and is lethal. Se doesn't want to die.

It reminds me of, in a certain way, leprosy. I put 'in a certain way' in bold to be clear that Greyscale does not remind me leprosy in lots of aspects.

About the Others and their kind of life, I like the idea that they are a group of COTF that disagreed about the ending of the war between then and the First Men. But this quote from GRRMs e-mail kind of make stronger the idea that the Others are just another race from Westeros. As I said, strange, because the COTF would have made contact with them before the war.

[Elaena Targaryen]

@ Eaeron I, I always thought the WW riding the dead horse that Sam slays was a contrast to Coldhands and his alive elk, maybe a sign of sorts.

But when I went back over Sam's account of the attack on the Fist and the long lonely walk to Craster's it seems as if the only real problem they had was from the wights. I know they sound the horns three times for Others but it really was wights. The same on the walk, they were worried about the "dead men" and Sam even recalls seeing a brother being killed by a wight, also when the rear guard passes them they tell Small Paul to leave the pig for the dead men. So it is strange the a WW shows up on a horse and seemingly not hostile.

I've also been looking at Coldhands some more and there was something else strange when they arrive at the cave...

Meera eyed the hill above. “The way looks clear.”

“Looks,” the ranger muttered darkly. “Can you feel the cold? There’s something here. Where are they?”

How can Cold hands "feel" the cold? Are the wights connected in some strange way and maybe he can feel or sense that they are near? He seems the know they are there and I don't think it's because he feels the cold that the wights bring with them. Also something else to add Leaf says "they killed him long ago" refering to the wights, I don't know why but I never noticed that before, I knew CH died long ago but I didn't catch it was the wights who killed him.

So this leads me too the thoughts of wights being some kind of a plague and I have always liked the idea but I think it would have some type of a magicl twist. Here is the closest thing we have to an inside account of some one almost turning, I also want to note that besides it being "cold" when wights come they also have a queer cold smell, when Small Paul gets ahold of Sam. ( it's not as much info as we would like but it's first hand and kinda close )

Before he could get out his other knife, the steel knife that every brother carried, the wight's black hands locked beneath his chins. Paul's fingers were so cold they seemed to bum. They burrowed deep into the soft flesh of Sam's throat. Run, Gilly, run, he wanted to scream, but when he opened his mouth only a choking sound emerged. His fumbling fingers finally found the dagger, but when he slammed it up into the wight's belly the point skidded off the iron links, and the blade went spinning from Sam's hand. Small Paul's fingers tightened inexorably, and began to twist. He's going to rip my head off, Sam thought in despair. His throat felt frozen, his lungs on fire. He punched and pulled at the wight's wrists, to no avail. He kicked Paul between the legs, uselessly. The world shrank to two blue stars, a terrible crushing pain, and a cold so fierce that his tears froze over his eyes. Sam squirmed and pulled, desperate ... and then he lurched forward.

I also wonder about how coordinated the wights seem and I mean with eachother. If some one is controlling them, which seems to large scale at times, the wights still seem that they "sense" eachother. Look at the Fist, very large movement with hundreds of wights that gathered and mounted an attack including dead animals. Look when Bran and co. arrive at the children's cave, Hodor disturbs one but the others all start popping up at the same time. I don't know it just seems like they have a collective purpose beyond mere mind control. I want to point out something else, we have seen two characters killed by WW, Royce and Small Paul, and neither one turned into a wight until much later, in contrast to Thistle who turned right away...so that could imply some type of plague or something along those lines.

Now on Jeor and how Othor, if Othor was trying to assassinate Mormont it makes me curious when Jeor went beyond the Wall, in particularly when they were fleeing the Fist. If the WW control the wights and they sent Othor to kill him then Jeor was a very easy target at this time. But maybe the WW do control the wights and only needed the Lord Comander killed at the Wall, or Othor wanted to kill him for sending him ranging to his death if they retain emotions but they don't seem to.

Well anyway I think all of this has interesting implications, also with the greyscale and the Bridge of Dream because if the victims of this plague sense eachother maybe they can send out things to those in close proximity. This has me hard-core crack-potting with Jon's assassination attempt! But I wont get into all of that now because my pointless post has gone on long enough already:)

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

I wonder why the white walker who Sam killed was riding a horse? Was his legs tired? They practically float above ground, and seem to move rather fast. Sam and co were walking, some were running (those on horses were far ahead at that point), so they shouldn't have come that far ahead I think.

Horses, Bears, Ice Spiders, maybe even Ice Dragons? I suppose whatever catches Ser White the Walker's fancy... like humans. Riding another animal denotes a certain intelligence, if nothing else, but I think that's widely accepted by heretics and non-blasphemers alike.

One of Martin's favorite ways to identify relationships between people is eye color... Targs w/ Violet eyes, Starks w/ Cold Grey Eyes, Boltons pale eyes, Lannisters green eyes...and so on. I always interpretted the unnaturally luminous blue eyes of both Others & wights as Martin's way of denoting a direct relationship between the two.

I know we've covered this before, but add to that the fact that the walker was riding a wight horse. Oral history (old nan, story of 'prentice boys returning as wights after facing the 'thing that came in the cold dark', wildling lore, etc) and what little written history survives (so said martin in the Season 1 episode he wrote) both agree that Walkers are not only connected by the wights, but have a hand in creating them.

I think we also roughly agree that the bitter white cold is associated with the walkers, (Waymar Royce, Tormund) yet there is also bitter cold around the CotF cave. Would that not imply that Walkers were very near? I doubt that's a coincidence. Furthermore, at Hardhome we have visions of fires being snuffed out by the bitter cold of the Walkers and written reports of wights there as well.

Just my thoughts... but more than anything else, the fact that Walker & Wight alike have eyes seemingly lit by a inner blue flame.

[Black Crow]

As to sitting on a horse, dead or otherwise; having sat on living ones an important and often overlooked advantage is the view you get from up there. Now OK its not like looking from a high wall or a tower, or even an upstairs window, but the difference it makes is quite surprising.

What is interesting about the lone Other/Sidhe below the Fist, isn't that he was riding the horse, but that finding the three stragglers he slid off it to approach them on foot, which again hints at slightly less than aggressive behaviour.

To take up Sword's points (sorry :cool4: ) there's no doubt that the Others/Sidhe and the Wights are associated but the question is the nature of that association. Old Nan, as we've seen, is wrong in describing the Sidhe as dead and also appears to be wrong in describing them as leading armies of Wights, but if we suppose as we've been discussing that its the cold - perhaps spilling out of Faerie - which first kills and then raises Wights, and it came for the first time in the Long Winter, its natural for the two to be linked even if the nature of that link is misunderstood. I think an important point here is the way we've seen a lot of wights but very little of the Others/Sidhe - who don't seem particularly shy.

[alienarea]

@ Eaeron I, I always thought the WW riding the dead horse that Sam slays was a contrast to Coldhands and his alive elk, maybe a sign of sorts.

But when I went back over Sam's account of the attack on the Fist and the long lonely walk to Craster's it seems as if the only real problem they had was from the wights. I know they sound the horns three times for Others but it really was wights. The same on the walk, they were worried about the "dead men" and Sam even recalls seeing a brother being killed by a wight, also when the rear guard passes them they tell Small Paul to leave the pig for the dead men. So it is strange the a WW shows up on a horse and seemingly not hostile.

I've also been looking at Coldhands some more and there was something else strange when they arrive at the cave...

Meera eyed the hill above. “The way looks clear.”

“Looks,” the ranger muttered darkly. “Can you feel the cold? There’s something here. Where are they?”

How can Cold hands "feel" the cold? Are the wights connected in some strange way and maybe he can feel or sense that they are near? He seems the know they are there and I don't think it's because he feels the cold that the wights bring with them. Also something else to add Leaf says "they killed him long ago" refering to the wights, I don't know why but I never noticed that before, I knew CH died long ago but I didn't catch it was the wights who killed him.

So this leads me too the thoughts of wights being some kind of a plague and I have always liked the idea but I think it would have some type of a magicl twist. Here is the closest thing we have to an inside account of some one almost turning, I also want to note that besides it being "cold" when wights come they also have a queer cold smell, when Small Paul gets ahold of Sam. ( it's not as much info as we would like but it's first hand and kinda close )

Before he could get out his other knife, the steel knife that every brother carried, the wight's black hands locked beneath his chins. Paul's fingers were so cold they seemed to bum. They burrowed deep into the soft flesh of Sam's throat. Run, Gilly, run, he wanted to scream, but when he opened his mouth only a choking sound emerged. His fumbling fingers finally found the dagger, but when he slammed it up into the wight's belly the point skidded off the iron links, and the blade went spinning from Sam's hand. Small Paul's fingers tightened inexorably, and began to twist. He's going to rip my head off, Sam thought in despair. His throat felt frozen, his lungs on fire. He punched and pulled at the wight's wrists, to no avail. He kicked Paul between the legs, uselessly. The world shrank to two blue stars, a terrible crushing pain, and a cold so fierce that his tears froze over his eyes. Sam squirmed and pulled, desperate ... and then he lurched forward.

I also wonder about how coordinated the wights seem and I mean with eachother. If some one is controlling them, which seems to large scale at times, the wights still seem that they "sense" eachother. Look at the Fist, very large movement with hundreds of wights that gathered and mounted an attack including dead animals. Look when Bran and co. arrive at the children's cave, Hodor disturbs one but the others all start popping up at the same time. I don't know it just seems like they have a collective purpose beyond mere mind control. I want to point out something else, we have seen two characters killed by WW, Royce and Small Paul, and neither one turned into a wight until much later, in contrast to Thistle who turned right away...so that could imply some type of plague or something along those lines.

Now on Jeor and how Othor, if Othor was trying to assassinate Mormont it makes me curious when Jeor went beyond the Wall, in particularly when they were fleeing the Fist. If the WW control the wights and they sent Othor to kill him then Jeor was a very easy target at this time. But maybe the WW do control the wights and only needed the Lord Comander killed at the Wall, or Othor wanted to kill him for sending him ranging to his death if they retain emotions but they don't seem to.

Well anyway I think all of this has interesting implications, also with the greyscale and the Bridge of Dream because if the victims of this plague sense eachother maybe they can send out things to those in close proximity. This has me hard-core crack-potting with Jon's assassination attempt! But I wont get into all of that now because my pointless post has gone on long enough already:)

I wonder if Greyscale is a reverse WW magic thing. WW seem to be kind of "solid but fluid". Maybe Greyscale turns humans into WW North of the wall and that is why Val is afraid of Shireen.

Second guess: The wall comes down or at least the magic in it fades if the Lord Commander is killed at the wall?

If both are true we have Jon Connington bringing Greyscale to Westeros and the wall coming down because of Jon Snow's assassination. Then all the Greyscale infected humans in Westeros turn into WWs.

[mor2]

Doesn't Shireen Stannis daughter have Greyscale...

[DragonSpawn]

Sorry to drive this off topic slightly but I read a while back in the thread that the beginnings of the NW may have been slightly confused given that the Nights King appeared so soon after the long night had supposedly driven the WW back to the Land of Always Winter... and that maybe the purpose or vows of the NW changed at this point.

I have a little micro-theory that has been discussed (or parts of) in various other threads but seems this is the best place to test it out as it falls apart very quickly if the Nights King thoery mentioned above is way off the mark...

I'm assuming the Night King was a Stark (as Old nan suggests) - and that he married an Other. The theory is that he had a child... He was a legitimate Stark heir... but when the Stark in Winterfell and Joramun worked together to overthrow the Night King, the son escaped south of the Wall and forever hated the Starks for denying him his rights. As a son of a Stark and an Other he had a magical streak but south of the Wall his powers were not strong - instead of burning blue eyes... he had the grey eyes of the Starks but was devoid of Ice magic and his eyes became empty grey-eyes. Like two chips of colourless Ice. This hatred of the Starks and the constant feeling that he was done out of his lands by a Kinslaying family became part of his family legacy and a curse on the Starks... He built a fortress worthy of his fathers seat and named it in honour of his fathers seat at the Wall - he called it the Dreadfort and took on a new family name to hide his identity... and founded House Bolton (or Bolt-On - as an addition to Stark line - a terrible link i know!!! - sorry! :) ). Their practices were dark and terrible, and were very much an evil version of the faceless men... (e.g. both have rooms beneath ground level where skins are kept - to be worn when needed ... also links in with Arya and the fake marriage). They keep their dark practices secret... but still worship the Others and make sacrafice regularly... and throughout the 1000's of years since the Long Night have sought to bring down House Stark and take up their rightful place as King in the North at their seat in Winterfell. Roose claims that his first two children died in the crib... but it is more likely he was sacraficing his sons to the Old Gods to bring back the old powers that can help the restoration of their house. However, this didn't appear to work at first. Roose then ironically took the Millers wife by revisiting the old laws of 'the first night' (i'm sure this isn't a coincidence that it could be linked with the Long Night - which could also be known as the 'First Night' aswell since it was the first time the WW came... and may be why the practice was really abolished)... anyway... Roose took the Millars wife while her husband hung above them from a tree... (my thoery is that this was a Weirwood - those things always seem to be around at the important moments!) and the old gods blessed the woman with a son who would reclaim Winterfell - but was a dark and evil as the Night King ever was - Ramsey Snow, the Bastard of the Dreadfort to go up against the Bastard of Winterfell...

and this brings me on to the 'Pink Letter' - which i believe was legit.

signed:

Ramsay Bolton, Trueborn Lord of Winterfell

- My theory is he found out about the family backstory, as he was flaying his own Father! But more importantly ... from the letter we also know he refers to Arya as his 'bride' not as Arya - because he knows Jon Snow will not buy that it is her... so why refuse to mention Arya but still talk about his claim which would only be valid through her? - and this is where the theory above comes in... feel free to rip it apart so i can get over this and move on to something even more crazy!

[alienarea]

Sorry to drive this off topic slightly but I read a while back in the thread that the beginnings of the NW may have been slightly confused given that the Nights King appeared so soon after the long night had supposedly driven the WW back to the Land of Always Winter... and that maybe the purpose or vows of the NW changed at this point.

I have a little micro-theory that has been discussed (or parts of) in various other threads but seems this is the best place to test it out as it falls apart very quickly if the Nights King thoery mentioned above is way off the mark...

I'm assuming the Night King was a Stark (as Old nan suggests) - and that he married an Other. The theory is that he had a child... He was a legitimate Stark heir... but when the Stark in Winterfell and Joramun worked together to overthrow the Night King, the son escaped south of the Wall and forever hated the Starks for denying him his rights. As a son of a Stark and an Other he had a magical streak but south of the Wall his powers were not strong - instead of burning blue eyes... he had the grey eyes of the Starks but was devoid of Ice magic and his eyes became empty grey-eyes. Like two chips of colourless Ice. This hatred of the Starks and the constant feeling that he was done out of his lands by a Kinslaying family became part of his family legacy and a curse on the Starks... He built a fortress worthy of his fathers seat and named it in honour of his fathers seat at the Wall - he called it the Dreadfort and took on a new family name to hide his identity... and founded House Bolton (or Bolt-On - as an addition to Stark line - a terrible link i know!!! - sorry! :) ). Their practices were dark and terrible, and were very much an evil version of the faceless men... (e.g. both have rooms beneath ground level where skins are kept - to be worn when needed ... also links in with Arya and the fake marriage). They keep their dark practices secret... but still worship the Others and make sacrafice regularly... and throughout the 1000's of years since the Long Night have sought to bring down House Stark and take up their rightful place as King in the North at their seat in Winterfell. Roose claims that his first two children died in the crib... but it is more likely he was sacraficing his sons to the Old Gods to bring back the old powers that can help the restoration of their house. However, this didn't appear to work at first. Roose then ironically took the Millers wife by revisiting the old laws of 'the first night' (i'm sure this isn't a coincidence that it could be linked with the Long Night - which could also be known as the 'First Night' aswell since it was the first time the WW came... and may be why the practice was really abolished)... anyway... Roose took the Millars wife while her husband hung above them from a tree... (my thoery is that this was a Weirwood - those things always seem to be around at the important moments!) and the old gods blessed the woman with a son who would reclaim Winterfell - but was a dark and evil as the Night King ever was - Ramsey Snow, the Bastard of the Dreadfort to go up against the Bastard of Winterfell...

and this brings me on to the 'Pink Letter' - which i believe was legit.

signed:

Ramsay Bolton, Trueborn Lord of Winterfell

- My theory is he found out about the family backstory, as he was flaying his own Father! But more importantly ... from the letter we also know he refers to Arya as his 'bride' not as Arya - because he knows Jon Snow will not buy that it is her... so why refuse to mention Arya but still talk about his claim which would only be valid through her? - and this is where the theory above comes in... feel free to rip it apart so i can get over this and move on to something even more crazy!

Interesting. Not convinced, still very interesting. I already mentioned that Melisandre looking for AA and only seeing Snow could as well be Ramsay. There was smoke at Winterfell when it burned, and Iron Born = sea people = salt could be made into fitting. And the book Roose burned at Harrenhal could tie in as well as Roose finishing off Robb - make it personal.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

In the Season 1 episode that GRRM wrote, Sam states "he was touched by white walkers".

In AGOT Prologue, Royce is killed by the Walkers and becomes a wight. No mist. Killed by WW, transformed to wight. No interaction with anything else.

Now, I don't think wight Waymar will be reporting to WW's for marching orders, I think he'll go about causing trouble w/ wildings and NW rangers alike until he falls apart. But I think we have conclusive evidence that WW's CAN control the wights to some extent. I think the battle at the Fist demonstrates this, but an argument could be made that such evidence is circumstantial. To further demonstrate the relationship, I direct your attention to Craster's Keep. The area around Craster's is swarming with violent wights, yet he remained unmolested. This protection could only come from the WW's, with whom Craster has an understanding. I also direct your attention to the seeming restraint displayed by the wights that had surrounded Sam, Gilly, and her son. The baby was valuable to only two parties - Gilly/Sam & the WW's. I think we can state with confidence that the wights were not acting on behalf of Gilly and Sam.

[Black Crow]

Continuing with the train of thought that whatever raises the Wights is a disease or virus carried by the white cold, I’m reminded of the famous uncertainty as to whether the Others/Sidhe come with the cold, or whether they bring it.

As Old Nan tells it there came a terrible winter to Westeros and the Others came in that darkness for the first time, leading hosts of the slain, but what if it was slightly the other way around and that it the winter was the natural accompaniment of the massive drop in temperature caused by the deadly White Cold?

It might also be worth observing first that a virus can be spread in a number of ways not always requiring physical contact from one victim to another, and that paradoxically the most apparently successful viruses are actually by definition suicidal in that they kill their hosts and die with them. A virus which keeps its host alive on the other hand…

[redraike]

Nursing a crackpot theory here.

Clearly - the Others represent the forces of Winter, the North and the death that comes from harsh polar climates. They obviously have power to revive the dead as cold, frozen wights. It is unclear how much autonomous action these wights are capable of, but I suspect they are far smarter than they have appeared to be. I also suspect the cold is how they reanimate the dead, as this would be balanced out by how the Fire Priest passes on a flame that revives Dondarrion.

The CotF would then represent the Old Gods, growing things and Spring. The springtime CotF would then remember clearly the threat of Winter, and so the Starks words are probably in tune with the CotF's warning to humanity that Winter will always return. The CotF have the power to preserve and protect life and living things through warging and inhabiting the wierwood trees. They can escape death by inhabiting another living body, and die when they merge into the body that they've inhabited.

The forces of the Red God (Melisandre) appear to represent the forces of Summer, come from equatorial lands and are in opposition to both Spring and Autumn as an obstacle to it's true foe and polar opposite, Winter. As a force of extremes, they too have the ability to revive the dead through a gift of fire (the Others use cold, yeah?). These resurrected individuals appear to possess free will. Much like the Others appear to want to cover the world in Ice, the forces of Rh'llor want it to burn.

The Seven, by process of elimination, would then be more in tune with Autumn and the realms of men. We have not seen but the heart of the beginning of the Seven's work with their anachronistic holy crusader army they have reconsituted. I suspect the Night's Watch is a holdover from this time, yet have a long-standing pact with Spring against both Winter and Summer. The special attributes the Seven may have in this battle would be the Faceless Men, the Stranger, who disguise the living to look like the dead to give the 'gift' of death. They inhabit someone's body who's died, an echo of the CotF's warging magic of Spring.

It's interesting to look at this from the perspective of each group's particular relationship with death, and how the tension between each force may be likely to play out when viewed through that lens. Will the victory be in finding a balance, a middle way, where the seasons are consistent and predictable?

[Stark@heart]

Been thinking on the virus angle, which I like, but thinking over the dead rangers that Ghost found.

They were dead/dormant - and it was noticed that they now had blue eyes so we know the ice magic was in them but when they woke/re-animated their eyes would have switched "on" to the bright blue.

I don't see how a virus or a plague could turn itself off and on like that unless it's the daylight/sunlight that causes the wights to shut down, which could kinda work, but if the sun/day can shut it down then wouldn't prolonged exposure kill the virus and therefore the wight?

[Black Crow]

Back from Scouting to pick where I left off...

As I mentioned in an earlier post I've always been wary of the Great Other scenario because I really can't see such a major character credibly coming so late into the story, which is why I favour the idea that ultimately its the existing protagonists who have to resolve the story arc rather than lead the great war against the Others/Sidhe

Similarly I'm a bit wary of where the Winter/Long Night comes from. As Maester Luwin tells the story the First Men and the Children fought each other ragged, then agreed the Pact and lived happily ever after until the Andals came. Somehow the Winter as a random event, a blip (albeit a massive one) doesn't ring true. So was it connected with the was between the First Men and the Children. We've discussed before and in the end come down against the notion that it was the apocalypse that forced the First Men to negotiate, but what if it was a consequence, a reverberation of something that happened earlier. What I'm wondering is whether the Hammer of the Waters business set in train a chain reaction culminating years later in the release of the White Cold. A constant theme of the Song of Ice and Fire is unintended consequences and while GRRM has confirmed that the imbalance in the seasons has a magical origin it doesn't necessarily follow that the imbalance was a direct and deliberate creation.

[Black Crow]

Been thinking on the virus angle, which I like, but thinking over the dead rangers that Ghost found.

They were dead/dormant - and it was noticed that they now had blue eyes so we know the ice magic was in them but when they woke/re-animated their eyes would have switched "on" to the bright blue.

I don't see how a virus or a plague could turn itself off and on like that unless it's the daylight/sunlight that causes the wights to shut down, which could kinda work, but if the sun/day can shut it down then wouldn't prolonged exposure kill the virus and therefore the wight?

Its a good point, but viruses can lie dormant for a long time, wakening only if the conditions are right.

[Stark@heart]

Its a good point, but viruses can lie dormant for a long time, wakening only if the conditions are right.

Yes, viruses are known to do that but as we know the bodies of the rangers that Ghost found had been dead for awhile and showed no decay. The must have been "on" for a while, to have made their way back to the Wall or been brought there as wights or else they would have rotted.

So, the were "on" then they were "off" and found by Ghost and brought through the Wall and then they were "on" again and starting roaming around attacking people. I can't see that being caused by a virus but this is a make believe magical world so...

[lokisnow]

Back from Scouting to pick where I left off...

As I mentioned in an earlier post I've always been wary of the Great Other scenario because I really can't see such a major character credibly coming so late into the story, which is why I favour the idea that ultimately its the existing protagonists who have to resolve the story arc rather than lead the great war against the Others/Sidhe

Similarly I'm a bit wary of where the Winter/Long Night comes from. As Maester Luwin tells the story the First Men and the Children fought each other ragged, then agreed the Pact and lived happily ever after until the Andals came. Somehow the Winter as a random event, a blip (albeit a massive one) doesn't ring true. So was it connected with the was between the First Men and the Children. We've discussed before and in the end come down against the notion that it was the apocalypse that forced the First Men to negotiate, but what if it was a consequence, a reverberation of something that happened earlier. What I'm wondering is whether the Hammer of the Waters business set in train a chain reaction culminating years later in the release of the White Cold. A constant theme of the Song of Ice and Fire is unintended consequences and while GRRM has confirmed that the imbalance in the seasons has a magical origin it doesn't necessarily follow that the imbalance was a direct and deliberate creation.

To spin off that, it's called The Long Night, not The Long Winter. And I think the children did something to the moon (or a comet like the red comet of ACOK) that resulted in a nuclear winter esque event when they tried to break the arm of dorne. I mean, there's probably a reason a place called "Starfall" is in Dorne, and that there was meteoric fallout in such a place that forged a spectacular weapon. I know it's on the wrong coast, but it's close enough for debris, and close enough to have seen it and named your location after such a 'supernatural' event.

iirc, the Hammer of the Waters referred to Moat Cailin/the Neck, not the Arm of Dorne, right? We have no textual evidence that this was what the COTF used on Dorne.

Also interesting that that the arm of dorne is a landbridge... could it have first arisen because of an ice age? How do you end an ice age?

It's possible that Others are the Ice Dragons, and that both the Others and Dragons were woken from the earth due to the event that destroyed the arm of dorne

[Ramsay Gimp]

Sorry to drive this off topic slightly but I read a while back in the thread that the beginnings of the NW may have been slightly confused given that the Nights King appeared so soon after the long night had supposedly driven the WW back to the Land of Always Winter... and that maybe the purpose or vows of the NW changed at this point.

I have a little micro-theory that has been discussed (or parts of) in various other threads but seems this is the best place to test it out as it falls apart very quickly if the Nights King thoery mentioned above is way off the mark...

I'm assuming the Night King was a Stark (as Old nan suggests) - and that he married an Other. The theory is that he had a child... He was a legitimate Stark heir... but when the Stark in Winterfell and Joramun worked together to overthrow the Night King, the son escaped south of the Wall and forever hated the Starks for denying him his rights. As a son of a Stark and an Other he had a magical streak but south of the Wall his powers were not strong - instead of burning blue eyes... he had the grey eyes of the Starks but was devoid of Ice magic and his eyes became empty grey-eyes. Like two chips of colourless Ice. This hatred of the Starks and the constant feeling that he was done out of his lands by a Kinslaying family became part of his family legacy and a curse on the Starks... He built a fortress worthy of his fathers seat and named it in honour of his fathers seat at the Wall - he called it the Dreadfort and took on a new family name to hide his identity... and founded House Bolton (or Bolt-On - as an addition to Stark line - a terrible link i know!!! - sorry! :) ). Their practices were dark and terrible, and were very much an evil version of the faceless men... (e.g. both have rooms beneath ground level where skins are kept - to be worn when needed ... also links in with Arya and the fake marriage). They keep their dark practices secret... but still worship the Others and make sacrafice regularly... and throughout the 1000's of years since the Long Night have sought to bring down House Stark and take up their rightful place as King in the North at their seat in Winterfell. Roose claims that his first two children died in the crib... but it is more likely he was sacraficing his sons to the Old Gods to bring back the old powers that can help the restoration of their house. However, this didn't appear to work at first. Roose then ironically took the Millers wife by revisiting the old laws of 'the first night' (i'm sure this isn't a coincidence that it could be linked with the Long Night - which could also be known as the 'First Night' aswell since it was the first time the WW came... and may be why the practice was really abolished)... anyway... Roose took the Millars wife while her husband hung above them from a tree... (my thoery is that this was a Weirwood - those things always seem to be around at the important moments!) and the old gods blessed the woman with a son who would reclaim Winterfell - but was a dark and evil as the Night King ever was - Ramsey Snow, the Bastard of the Dreadfort to go up against the Bastard of Winterfell...

and this brings me on to the 'Pink Letter' - which i believe was legit.

signed:

Ramsay Bolton, Trueborn Lord of Winterfell

- My theory is he found out about the family backstory, as he was flaying his own Father! But more importantly ... from the letter we also know he refers to Arya as his 'bride' not as Arya - because he knows Jon Snow will not buy that it is her... so why refuse to mention Arya but still talk about his claim which would only be valid through her? - and this is where the theory above comes in... feel free to rip it apart so i can get over this and move on to something even more crazy!

I like this. Not all of your evidence is convincing, but House Bolton as descendants of the Night's King and a corrupted branch of the Starks makes a lot of sense

I don't think Ramsay is going to kill his father though

[Black Crow]

To spin off that, it's called The Long Night, not The Long Winter. And I think the children did something to the moon (or a comet like the red comet of ACOK) that resulted in a nuclear winter esque event when they tried to break the arm of dorne. I mean, there's probably a reason a place called "Starfall" is in Dorne, and that there was meteoric fallout in such a place that forged a spectacular weapon. I know it's on the wrong coast, but it's close enough for debris, and close enough to have seen it and named your location after such a 'supernatural' event.

iirc, the Hammer of the Waters referred to Moat Cailin/the Neck, not the Arm of Dorne, right? We have no textual evidence that this was what the COTF used on Dorne.

Also interesting that that the arm of dorne is a landbridge... could it have first arisen because of an ice age? How do you end an ice age?

It's possible that Others are the Ice Dragons, and that both the Others and Dragons were woken from the earth due to the event that destroyed the arm of dorne

There's always been a bit of confusion in text over the terms Long Winter and Long Night but they appear to be one and the same. Old Nan starts off by telling how "a winter fell that was cold and hard and endless beyond all memory of man. There came a night that lasted a generation."

As to the land bridge it has long been known that there was such a land bridge between Britain and France in what's now the Pas de Calais, which was destroyed catastophically a few thousand years ago. I don't recall the precise detail but its reckoned that most of what's the North Sea was also dry land but much lower. An ice age blocked the Rhine outlet to the north and this low-lying land gradually filled up as a huge fresh-water lake which eventually burst through the chalk dam at the southern end.

[Black Crow]

In AGOT Prologue, Royce is killed by the Walkers and becomes a wight. No mist. Killed by WW, transformed to wight. No interaction with anything else.

Now, I don't think wight Waymar will be reporting to WW's for marching orders, I think he'll go about causing trouble w/ wildings and NW rangers alike until he falls apart. But I think we have conclusive evidence that WW's CAN control the wights to some extent. I think the battle at the Fist demonstrates this, but an argument could be made that such evidence is circumstantial. To further demonstrate the relationship, I direct your attention to Craster's Keep. The area around Craster's is swarming with violent wights, yet he remained unmolested. This protection could only come from the WW's, with whom Craster has an understanding. I also direct your attention to the seeming restraint displayed by the wights that had surrounded Sam, Gilly, and her son. The baby was valuable to only two parties - Gilly/Sam & the WW's. I think we can state with confidence that the wights were not acting on behalf of Gilly and Sam.

Missed this late edit.

Its the White Cold that does it and while that's sometimes seen as a mist its not invariably so.

As to control, it depends how you define control. The Others/Sidhe are obviously familiar with and unaffected by the condition and can seemingly exercise a degree of control, but the impression I get is that its more in the nature of kicking them in a particular direction rather than warging or something similar - which is presumably why Craster needed an axe for insurance.