Heresy 10

[Cheese Pudding]

Could you update me about the theories going on here currently, please? Just a quick review, so that I could read the thread easily, if you don't mind :blushing:

I'm interested in the relations betwen Starks and the Others and the moto 'There must always be a Stark in Winterfell', what are you talking about these topics nowadays...

[Black Crow]

That's interesting. But, how do you reconcile this with the fact that the early Starks died before the Andals, and therefore did not know iron?

I don't, but they've got to be currently doing it for a reason

[Black Crow]

Could you update me about the theories going on here currently, please? Just a quick review, so that I could read the thread easily, if you don't mind :blushing:

I'm interested in the relations betwen Starks and the Others and the moto 'There must always be a Stark in Winterfell', what are you talking about these topics nowadays...

Go back to the OP of this thread (the current version 10); there's also a basic round-up in post 8.

Since post 8 we've had this revelation by GRRM:

'The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.

[Black Crow]

Cont.

'The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.'

Understandably enough this and its implication, with a lot of very erudite discussion of European folklore, has been occupying us quite happily ever since

Other than Bran Stark the Nights King we haven't really discussed the connection in a lot of detail lately but if you want to kick off any ideas you have I'm sure they can be taken up.

[Ser Lepus]

That's interesting. But, how do you reconcile this with the fact that the early Starks died before the Andals, and therefore did not know iron?

People were making small objects of meteoric iron for magical purposes long before they had the technology to produce real weapons and tools made of iron. Some people like the inuit and the nama did even make real weapons out of meteoric iron, despite not knowing how to mine or refine common iron.

[Bran Vras]

I just reported in the Stone versus wood thread some evidence that the Starks brought new burial customs to the First Men, who didn't have anything like crypts under weir woods.

I don't, but they've got to be currently doing it for a reason

People were making small objects of meteoric iron for magical purposes long before they had the technology to produce real weapons and tools made of iron. Some people like the inuit and the nama did even make real weapons out of meteoric iron, despite not knowing how to mine or refine common iron.

Perhaps iron was used before the Andals, but we have not seen evidence of it yet. However, the First Men had runes on bronze armours and weapons. Here is the description of Oldstones (Catelyn, ASoS)

They reached Oldstones after eight more days of steady rain, and made their camp upon the hill overlooking the Blue Fork, within a ruined stronghold of the ancient river kings. Its foundations remained amongst the weeds to show where the walls and keeps had stood, but the local smallfolk had long ago made off with most of the stones to raise their barns and septs and holdfasts. Yet in the center of what once would have been the castle’s yard, a great carved sepulcher still rested, half hidden in waist-high brown grass amongst a stand of ash.

The lid of the sepulcher had been carved into a likeness of the man whose bones lay beneath, but the rain and the wind had done their work. The king had worn a beard, they could see, but otherwise his face was smooth and featureless, with only vague suggestions of a mouth, a nose, eyes, and the crown about the temples. His hands folded over the shaft of a stone warhammer that lay upon his chest. Once the warhammer would have been carved with runes that told its name and history, but all that the centuries had worn away. The stone itself was cracked and crumbling at the corners, discolored here and there by spreading white splotches of lichen, while wild roses crept up over the king’s feet almost to his chest.

Did the runes fulfill the function that was later assigned to iron?

[Ser Lepus]

It's possible that Claude Lecouteux is right and the one that found connections others have not made, or that he has source material that were not commonly used before. His interpretations just seem different from what I was taught. I think he is right in that the myths of ghosts and shapeshifters are from earlier belief systems, but they are present in almost every old culture. The Sapmi people in the north of Scandinavia had shamans that said to practice astral travels and shapeshifting into animals long after the Christians invaded the north for example.

Well, Claude Leucoteux didn´t really studied nordic mythology, but rather its roots: In his books, he studies and compares myths not only from nordic cultures, but from the folklore of all european peoples; he tries to prove that all those myths and legends have a common origin.

For example, he claims that all those tales about men stealing the feathery dress (or pelt) of swann, crane, and otter maidens come from old myths about men getting a protective spirit similar to a fylgia (the man would be performing a shamanic ritual, and the swann maiden would be a spirit he captures and turns into his guardian/luck/prosperity spirit); he also claims that tales about vampires, werewolves, witches...etc. come from old shamanistic belief systems.

Carlo Ginzburg and Julio Caro Baroja also wrote books with a similar outlook on witch legends.

[Black Crow]

I think cutting right back to the shamanistic stuff, warging and so on makes a lot of sense. We've already got the Sidhe and the Singers, so adding vampires, werwolves and other hobgoblins would just be messy, without advancing the story.

[Bran Vras]

It might be fair to say that whatever Lecouteux has discovered has not made its way to GRRM. (Most of Lecouteux' publications were in French until AGoT was published.)

However, Lecouteux is of the Georges Dumézil's school, and even confesses that Dumézil's magnus opus always belonged to his bedside. I was once an admirer of Dumézil, especially for his skills in finding significance in little details of myths, folklore, sacred texts. Having read him has left a mark in the way I read GRRM's books.

[Eyron]

Well, Claude Leucoteux didn´t really studied nordic mythology, but rather its roots: In his books, he studies and compares myths not only from nordic cultures, but from the folklore of all european peoples; he tries to prove that all those myths and legends have a common origin.

For example, he claims that all those tales about men stealing the feathery dress (or pelt) of swann, crane, and otter maidens come from old myths about men getting a protective spirit similar to a fylgia (the man would be performing a shamanic ritual, and the swann maiden would be a spirit he captures and turns into his guardian/luck/prosperity spirit); he also claims that tales about vampires, werewolves, witches...etc. come from old shamanistic belief systems.

Carlo Ginzburg and Julio Caro Baroja also wrote books with a similar outlook on witch legends.

I see, he is tracing it back to a common european belief system.

It gets a bit problematic when he applies his theory to a specific belief system though, if his theory actually is about only traces of an earlier belief system. That said, I like the way he approaches the issue, and I think linguistics and language can reveal much, as well as the mythologies, but my impressions about the Norse language compared to the modern Islandic and my modern Swedish is that the meaning of the words have not changed much, of those that are still incommon between us.

The word hamn is shared by all languages but with varied spellings, and it's meanings is shape, location and port. The meanings are interrelated as in a port is where the ships locate when "landing" as we say. And that is used for individuals too, Where am I? would be Var har jag hamnat? as in Where am I located? or literally Where did I leave my boat? :)

In the meaning shape it is interpreted as a location of a mind or a port of the mind too, the shape is a port where something is located. The soul can travel to different ports, or locations.

I can imagine that the original mythos would be to borrow another animals body but that in the Norse myth that specific seems to be lost or at least not clear. The gods changed their own shape, they didn't borrow another animals shape, unless of course this detail was mistranslated or misinterpreted over the years, which is very possible.

Another expression is Vi ska ro det i hamn! meaning We will succeed in this! or literally We will row this to the shore/port!

A hamn is not necessarily a real port, it is simply where I land my boat. It is also used in expressions to mean a place that feels safe (from wind and harm), a haven (which comes from the word hamn I think, probably from Danish vikings, havn=port, or haven=garden), a place we want to go and the final destination of our efforts. Anyone think about where the word heaven originates? I don't know, but it seems related.

We had shamans in the Norse religion too, women called völur (swedish Völvor, sing. völva), and those women were the ones that taught Odin how to do magic in some stories. The goddess Freya was from a different clan of gods (she, her brother and father were hostages from a peace treaty between the Vanir and the Aesir). She came from the Vanir (or the Álfar, elfs, sometimes used interchangeably) and she was the gods' version of a Völva, a witch, and she influenced Odin. The Norns are believed to be völvor as well, they could steer the fate of men with their weaving, and the real shaman women did the same to see the future. Women that were völvas were held in high esteem and honoured. Women practiced some of their rituals to make their husbands win their wars.

And there is the male version of a Norse priest, a goði, that have been documented in Iceland. He was responsible for the blot, the sacrifices, in the area he worked. Goði is probably related to the Icelandic term goður, gott, and the synonymous Swedish word god, gott - all meaning good.

So there is definitely something connected to the older belief systems, but I'm not so sure the Hamr, and the Hugr can be interpreted fully in this context, but it's possible. I should really read Leucoteux :) Thanks for introducing his work!

There is also the real influence on the Nordic culture from the Finns, and especially the Sapmi (who many of us with roots in the north stem from) peoples who are believed to have lived in the area before the germanic people came. They had exchange with the newcomers, and one of the old Norwegian kings (Harald Hårfagre) is said to have married the Sapmi woman Snøfrid, who knew sorcery. (from Heimskringla, Snorri Sturlason). The story of Harald Hårfagre is not historically correct, but it suggests that they had developed at least a system of exchange with the Sapmi.

All this is very interesting to me, so sorry for the derail of the thread :)

Another fun detail in Norse myth is that Odin, the one-eyed All-Father, is often called the Wise-tree.

I also found this interesting piece of info:

The Heimskringla tells of Swedish King Aun who sacrificed nine of his sons in an effort to prolong his life until his subjects stopped him from killing his last son Egil. According to Adam of Bremen, the Swedish kings sacrificed males every ninth year during the Yule sacrifices at the Temple at Uppsala. The Swedes had the right not only to elect kings but also to depose them, and both king Domalde and king Olof Trätälja are said to have been sacrificed after years of famine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse_religion

[Lummel]

This derailment interests me too so I'll comment a little.

...A hamn is not necessarily a real port, it is simply where I land my boat. It is also used in expressions to mean a place that feels safe (from wind and harm), a haven (which comes from the word hamn I think, probably from Danish vikings, havn=port, or haven=garden), a place we want to go and the final destination of our efforts. Anyone think about where the word heaven originates? I don't know, but it seems related...

Another fun detail in Norse myth is that Odin, the one-eyed All-Father, is often called the Wise-tree.

I also found this interesting piece of info:

http://en.wikipedia..../Norse_religion

In English a haven might poetically be used as a word for a harbour, but literally would be a safe place. Damn those Vikings coming here, settlling and leaving their words around to litter the language!

The tree connection, like a handy crane, lifts the train back on the rails. Tree Odin both sacrifices an eye to drink from the waters at the base of the world tree (Yggdrassill - a yew tree though so not much like the weirwood) to gain knowledge about the future, but in another story he also hangs himself on a tree to gain knowledge of runes and both have a Bloodraven flavour - there he is locked in a tree to gain knowledge.

The hanging of, well actually I don't think it was just men, at the sacred grove at Old Uppsala is attested, I think in Adam of Bremen from Ansgar or one of the other early missionaries and really reminds me strongly of the dark side of northern religion recalled by Manderleys' old jailer in ADWD.

[Lykos]

I would like to start a thread for stuff like this. Where we could take up Edwin Snow´s offer of showing us some analogies to hindu mythology too. I´m really fascinated by the different cultural "shades" that influence how people read the books.

I´m not shure how to name the thread, though. Or where to draw the limit, for example should I include influences of popular culture. I´m very interested in the little tributes GRRM put in the books. Maybe you could send me a message, only today the board freezes all the time. And I´m not very concentrated right now, so it could take a day or two before I answer back.

@Lummel: The german wiki on the ash tree says that the Yggdrassill was an ash. I´ve seen someone comparing the root network of the ash trees to the Weirwood network. The ash is a holy tree in Ireland, though supposedly they have very few left because they used them up to produce their hurling bats.

[Eyron]

This derailment interests me too so I'll comment a little.

In English a haven might poetically be used as a word for a harbour, but literally would be a safe place. Damn those Vikings coming here, settlling and leaving their words around to litter the language!

The tree connection, like a handy crane, lifts the train back on the rails. Tree Odin both sacrifices an eye to drink from the waters at the base of the world tree (Yggdrassill - a yew tree though so not much like the weirwood) to gain knowledge about the future, but in another story he also hangs himself on a tree to gain knowledge of runes and both have a Bloodraven flavour - there he is locked in a tree to gain knowledge.

The hanging of, well actually I don't think it was just men, at the sacred grove at Old Uppsala is attested, I think in Adam of Bremen from Ansgar or one of the other early missionaries and really reminds me strongly of the dark side of northern religion recalled by Manderleys' old jailer in ADWD.

It seems the vikings left a lot behind, and took a lot away too, since they were slavers. I apologise on their behalf! :D

Yeah, the records human sacrifices in Sweden are solid, there is little dispute on that. I thought the description of the sacrifices of the elected king was particularly interesting. Adam of Bremen had second hand knowledge I believe, so his records are not solid, but the story about Aun is a bit more authentic, although Snorri is known for making stuff up too. That the story appears in two sources makes it more believable.

[Lummel]

Lykos, I think there is already a thread for references and homages, so maybe real world mythological references in ASOIAF or something similar?

I'm probably misremembering the Yew :). There is more than one tree species that spreads via it's root network, I think Elms can too.

ETA As it happens Eira I have my copy of Adam of Bremen's History of the Archbishops of Hamburg and Bremen to hand and he says he was told the story by a 72 year old Christian - you can't get much more reliable than that! Ooh and there was a sacred pool by a large tree whose branches were always green in summer and winter by your Uppsala temple too - sounds very much like Winterfell...

[Eyron]

@Lummel: The german wiki on the ash tree says that the Yggdrassill was an ash. I´ve seen someone comparing the root network of the ash trees to the Weirwood network. The ash is a holy tree in Ireland, though supposedly they have very few left because they used them up to produce their hurling bats.

The Yggdrasil was an Ash, but the trees with roots that seem similar to the weirwoods are Aspen. It was me who brought it up before I believe :)

I think a thread about the myths and mythologies would be interesting too.

[Lummel]

Then it must be canon :rofl: !

[Eyron]

Then it must be canon :rofl: !

Oh no, I should keep my mouth shut... Err, fingers still I mean. It's definitely not canon! :D

The reason I thought the Aspen is the tree most resembling the weirwoods is that they shoot new saplings from their roots, and therefor grow in groves (very hard to get rid of, since you must take out every little piece of the rootsystem). Apart from that though, there is very little resemblance to the weirwoods...

The Ash has a female and a male tree that look differently so that doesn't seem to work. But I don't think the weirwoods are based on a particular species either.

[Black Crow]

This is what I love about this thread, you genuinely learn so much :bowdown: and that's probably a major reason why it keeps going.

[Eyron]

This is what I love about this thread, you genuinely learn so much :bowdown: and that's probably a major reason why it keeps going.

Me too :)

I'm glad to be back and contributing to the derailment!

[Lummel]

Hmmm, Eaeron, that Aun link you posted, he doesn't sound like the prince of pentos...he sounds like Craster, sacrificing his sons to the gods to get extra years added on to his life - maybe that is what Craster thoguht he was getting from his sacrificed sons - the blessing of the cold gods. He did come across as a vigorous old man.