Heresy 10

[Eyron]

Basically this question has been rotating in my head the last two weeks. We know the wights are slow shambling creatures without a will of their own, but they retain their memory. We know the un-people of Rh´llor can make plans and have discussions, so I´d say they have a sort of will / spirit, but they loose their memory. The White Walkers don´t have a human body but they seem to be spirited. They seem to speak andmove inhumanly elegant and swift. I think they have bodies of Ice- ( crystals) taking form and spirit contained in human blood.

Do blood and weirwood sap and spirit belong to fire?

The parts you bolded are precisely what I believe, another poster posed the exact same thing a while back, and I think it is really brilliant thinking from both of you. I also think that it could be important and I put it in my theory of the equal and opposite forces of Ice and Fire, which builds on what maester Aemon said about Ice conserving and fire consuming. I'm a sucker for symmetry...

The thing that complicates the matter is 'agency', it seems Coldhands is what the wights would be without interference from the white walkers or whatever it is that *runs* them. (Also something that makes me think that the Children are not running the show, i.e. controlling the wights, but someone else, if they were - wouldn't all the wights be like Coldhands?). He seems to be a wight in all but the matter of agency, he still speaks his mind and seems to be in control of himself, but he is definitely undead. So what is he? And uncontrolled wight? An exception to the standard? Or is he the standard and the wights are the abomination?

He seems to mirror the Uns, but if he has been dead a long time, should he not be less and less himself? Maybe he is, but his memory does not leave him, opposite of the Uns. Maybe his will is leaving him, and he becomes less and less his own man. He hangs around the cave of the Children, he does their bidding it seems, but we don't know if that is his will. He says he is a servant, he is Bran's monster, so it seems he is not entirely his own master. The difficulty is to know whether this is inherent in his state of existance or if it is for other reasons, like a commitment he is bound to or a deal he made with the Children, or if it is of his own choosing.

I also put wind close to fire. Fire needs air to breathe and wind to spread. Wind is generated by differences in air-pressure, which in turn are generated by temperature differences. Valyria had Storm Singers. Dany mentiones that not even they could prevent the doom.

Interesting idea about wind and temperature. Extreme cold also makes a fire die as has been discussed earlier (BC's thoughts on the dragons unable to fly to high altitudes) as do lack of oxygen. Hm. When the mists rise there is no wind, and in extreme cold the air is still, I know from experience, so there could be some connection here. Can't think of anything more at the moment...

[Lykos]

I don´t think they´re trying to kill us. I think they try to confuse us to death. Very clever. "I don´t think they are clever. Theres only one person within 30 parsecs as clever as me, and that´s me" (Martin eh Marvin).

[redriver]

Bran's monster.

I thought this referred to Coldhands too.But I've had second thoughts on a re-read.

Meera-"Who is this three eyed crow?"

Coldhands-"A friend.Dreamer,wizard call him what you will.The last greenseer"

Bran-"A monster"

Coldhands-"Your monster,Brandon Stark"

Raven-"Yours,yours,yours".

So,Coldhands or Bloodraven?

[redriver]

Again that's explicitly contradicted both by Maester Luwin who tells Bran how the Pact endured until the Andals came and by the stories of the slaughter of the Children by the Andals which triggered that flight. The point being that their flight from the kingdoms below the Neck is therefore explicable, but their flight from the North as well implies a breaking of the Pact.

Rereading the last Bran chapter in AGOT you are entirely right.But there is room for another explanation.

The singers and other old races were so traumatized by the Andals that they lost all trust in Men of any description and asked to go North of the Wall and were allowed to by the Starks and the NW?

[Eyron]

Hello Eaeron I! It's nice to see you and I have missed your more...let's say exquisite style...I always enjoy your take on things!

:blushing: Thank you :D I hope to dive into this thread properly again!

If someone says "like the Sidhe" do you get a mental image of what they are supposed to look like or do you think of the stories told about things they have done or what they are? This is the first time, I believe, that I have heard of them so I do not have a visual mental image but I now have their stories, I was disapointed there was not any physical description on the wiki. All of that being said I think it could be more than apearances.

It could be more than the appearance for sure. I think GRRM was trying to get the artist to see how "otherworldy" and majestic the Others are, like faeries. But since he had that in mind, the Others could resemble the Sidhe in more ways of course.

I wonder if he would let a slip like this make it into print though, if the concept or the Sidhe are what he built the Others on. He is not known to let his mysteries be uncovered by slips like that. If he decided to let us in on that I'm sure there is more to the Others that is still not known, and they resemble the Sidhe in some ways but in other ways the differ.

On whether they are "alive" or not one word the artist used when thinking of how to draw the Others struck me...numinous; ( Having a strong religious or spiritual quality; indicating or suggesting the presence of a divinity. ) Could the Others be a deity? I like the magical, spirtitual and ethereal qualities and wonder if it could be even more. To get really crackpot at one moment I wondered if they could be the Old Gods just trying to analyse the new info better. I did arrive at some more questions; could they be divine, if they are some kind of deity or on that level with the "otherworld" connections are they "alive" in the way we use the word, can a different supernatural race that might be imortal be considered alive or can they die in the way we think, and so on... I really need to read more on numinous creatures!

We know that no gods will appear, so I don't think the Others are *real* gods. They could be the 'cold gods' that is mentioned that Craster gives his sons to, as *prayers*, but in that case they are treated as gods, but are not.

I think it could be similar to what I believe is the case with the Old gods, they are part of this world and are agents just like humans, but they are not bound by the same natural laws and exist on a different plane, the spirit world or some such. Unlike gods they can't decide fate or interfere like the hand of god, but their powers resemble godly powers to the humans that live in this world.

Yes me too! Inparticular the drawing by Jon Picacio, I could see that being similar to the way Rhaegar was described. In Jaime's dream it was all dead people looking similar to this right? I need to read that again! Is this a connection to the "otherworld"? Now I wonder how much the weirwoods can be similar to the "tree of life" and connected to the spirtits!

They were dead yes, he saw his brothers of the Kingsguard, Dayne, Hightower and the rest, all those that served and died for Aerys and Rhaegar. Except Barristan of course that is alive and kicking in Meereen...

He had this dream on a weirwood stump, so it seems connected to the magic of the weirwoods, just as Theons dream of the dead Starks came to him when he was sleeping in Neds weirwood bed. That is why I think the weirwoods are some kind of portals between the worlds of the dead and the living, or that the "fabric of reality is thin" (love that expression) near the weirwoods. The dead are not gone.

I think this is possible because spirits and ghosts are mentioned several times ecspecially in the North and with different groups. There have been casual comments that made me believe they think these things are real in their world. I also think this shows Martin has done horror before.

Precisely, and I think the Old gods are ghosts in a way, bound to the weirwoods. So to me the ghosts are probably present in more ways, the weirwoods are just their source of communication and exclusive to the Children and perhaps First Men greenseers, that is why they have more power than other spirits and ghosts.

The Children and in extention the First Men found a way to connect with the dead outside the dreamworld, and they can draw from all collected memory and knowledge of their ancestors, that is why I think they keep the bones in crypts beneath the weirwoods, since ya know - the bones remember :cool4: The men south of the Wall have forgotten the reason for this, but I think it's quite clear that it is connected to the Childrens habit of keeping the bones in their weirwood caves. The Children have not forgotten why.

I think there is something more to the weirwoods than being vessels for the *Old gods*, but I'm not sure what it is, they seem to be living creatures more than just trees. Perhaps they were woken to life somehow, and that is why they make such good channels for skinchangers, but that means they should have a mind of their own. Perhaps they are, as we have discussed before, some kind of representatives of the earth's spirit, like extentions of the earths own conscience. Idk... The Children sing to the earth, and why would they sing if there is no one listening? I just know that song is important, and that it seems the earth should be listening to it.

/rant :)

[Eyron]

Perhaps Craster's sons are being taken and raised on some Land of Always Winter WW-owned & operated human stud farm.

WW kids boot-camp! That's it! Allright, we can close down and go home, the mystery is solved ;) Only kidding...

[Eyron]

Welcome back!

I'd tend to go with this one. Yes, I've now managed to "freeze" on the kiss, but the context remains the same. The Other/Sidhe picks up the babe, cradling him, stills his crying with an apparent kiss, and then carries on cradling it. As I said right after this episode if he was snacking on the infant I'd expect to see it carried differently. If there's an actual kiss involved in this scene I'd say its much more likely that the Sidhe is putting the cold inside him, just as Adara had cold inside her.

Thank you BC!

Nice thinking on the kiss here, he is breathing the cold into the boy... The same way Adara was, they said the dragons cold breath entered the womb and her when she was being born. I like it!

[redriver]

Don't mention it! :cool4: :cool4:

[Eyron]

Don't mention it! :cool4: :cool4:

Mention wha? Didn't you say he was sucking the life force out of the boy? You mean the Ice dragon story? Please elaborate :)

[Edwin Snow]

There is something different about Craster's boys. When Gilly talks about her son and Dalla's son she mentions some specific things. Dalla's son is always crying where as Gilly's son hardly every cries and mostly just gurgles. Dalla's son's hunger is much greater than Gilly's son.

They are obviously different because it is also said that Dalla's son is already much larger and stronger than Gilly's son.

I dont think its a genetic thing as much as the life force of the two boys is entirely different. That could possibly be the reason as to why the WW's come for the boys. It seems to me that Gilly's son has the lesser of the human life force than Dalla's boy. Maybe by "breathing the cold into the boy", that was stated as a possibility above, could be filling the absent life force of the boy with the cold. So maybe they boy's are some form of hybrid.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

There is something different about Craster's boys. When Gilly talks about her son and Dalla's son she mentions some specific things. Dalla's son is always crying where as Gilly's son hardly every cries and mostly just gurgles. Dalla's son's hunger is much greater than Gilly's son.

They are obviously different because it is also said that Dalla's son is already much larger and stronger than Gilly's son.

I dont think its a genetic thing as much as the life force of the two boys is entirely different. That could possibly be the reason as to why the WW's come for the boys. It seems to me that Gilly's son has the lesser of the human life force than Dalla's boy. Maybe by "breathing the cold into the boy", that was stated as a possibility above, could be filling the absent life force of the boy with the cold. So maybe they boy's are some form of hybrid.

Well, Gilly is very young, Craster is very old... that's at least two or three generations of crazy inbreeding... some recessives are bound to become dominant.

[Edwin Snow]

Well, Gilly is very young, Craster is very old... that's at least two or three generations of crazy inbreeding... some recessives are bound to become dominant.

That is a definite possibility. I am from Arkansas and in a few of the small rural communities their are common genetic defects through out the community that you can see. No doubt through inbreeding because most people from the small communities never leave. Disclaimer: That is a very small part of the population of Arkansas and not an affirmation of the stereotype that all people that live here are fornicating(I chose a polite word) with their cousins.

I would hope though that his physical form and differences aren't because of genetic defects, and because of the apparent incestuous relationships that have already been mentioned throughout the series that now, in Gilly's son's case, defects are now in play. I see it as a possibility, but for me that would be sort of a let down as opposed to him just being different all together.

[alienarea]

Well, Gilly is very young, Craster is very old... that's at least two or three generations of crazy inbreeding... some recessives are bound to become dominant.

After ten rounds of heresy you dare to come up with a logical explanation?

[darrylzero]

I think a more likely reason for the gradual decline of the Children in the North is that the very act of raising the Wall was a self sacrifice by them. They knowingly infused the Wall with their magic, knowing that it would weaken them over the centuries, causing them to dwindle as a race. They did so to save the humans who they had a Pact with. In order to weaken the Others, they were weakening themselves as well. People like the Night's King were probably just rogue humans who chose to embrace the Others from time to time, just like you get devil worshippers in the real world. This doesn't mean that humanity as a whole betrayed the Pact.

I'm sympathetic to your efforts to counterbalance some of the wilder speculation, but can you account for why, if the raising of the wall was a great sacrifice by the Children to protect the First Men, they chose to live on the wrong side?

I mean, there's something here. The idea that the First Men and the Children were totally on the same page and united to fight the Others just doesn't quite add up.

[Black Crow]

It could be more than the appearance for sure. I think GRRM was trying to get the artist to see how "otherworldy" and majestic the Others are, like faeries. But since he had that in mind, the Others could resemble the Sidhe in more ways of course.

I wonder if he would let a slip like this make it into print though, if the concept or the Sidhe are what he built the Others on. He is not known to let his mysteries be uncovered by slips like that. If he decided to let us in on that I'm sure there is more to the Others that is still not known, and they resemble the Sidhe in some ways but in other ways the differ.

Well its always worth remembering that this isn't a public pronouncement by GRRM, but the artist quoting an email which GRRM sent to him. In that respect as revelations go its no different from Benioff and Weiss being so explicit in confirming that Craster really was giving up his sons to the Others/Sidhe.

The only difference, curiously enough is that while the latter raised a lot of interest on the board, the Sidhe reference has not yet escaped outside this thread

[Black Crow]

There is something different about Craster's boys. When Gilly talks about her son and Dalla's son she mentions some specific things. Dalla's son is always crying where as Gilly's son hardly every cries and mostly just gurgles. Dalla's son's hunger is much greater than Gilly's son.

Interesting observation and closely paralleled by Adara:

...they said that the cold had entered Adara in the womb, that her skin had been pale blue and icy to the touch when she came forth, and that she never warmed in all the years since. The winter had touched her, left its mark upon her, and made her its own.

It was true that Adara was always a child apart. She was a very serious little girl who seldom cared to play with the others. She was beautiful, people said, but in a strange, distant sort of way, with her pale skin and blone hair and wide clear blue eyes. She smiled, but not often. No one had ever seen her cry.

[Lummel]

I'm sympathetic to your efforts to counterbalance some of the wilder speculation, but can you account for why, if the raising of the wall was a great sacrifice by the Children to protect the First Men, they chose to live on the wrong side?

I mean, there's something here. The idea that the First Men and the Children were totally on the same page and united to fight the Others just doesn't quite add up.

Yes at the very least that implies that the white walkers are easier for the Children to live with than the Northerners. Hmm.

[Francis Buck]

Honestly, I think the wights are exactly the same as Coldhands, except they're being warged by someone (The Others? The Children? Bloodraven?). This would explain why they could still "see", as Varamyr saw noted regarding Thistle, without actually being able to control their own bodies (much like Hodor is still present in his body while Bran is warging him). Coldhands is just a wight that isn't being warged. I think there's a reason we've been introduced to the concept of warging humans, and of course to seeing just how powerful a warg can be in the case of people like Bloodraven and the singers. I also don't think there's really any fundamental difference between the fire-wights and something like Coldhands, except that one was raised by fire, and the other by ice. Coldhands seems to have lost part of his identity, just as has happened with Cat and Beric. It only makes sense that Coldhand's "symptoms" would be further progressed, since he's apparently been dead for awhile (even if he's Benjen, he'd still have been dead for nearly three years by the time Bran meets him, which is longer than either Beric or Cat).

[Black Crow]

Honestly, I think the wights are exactly the same as Coldhands, except they're being warged by someone (The Others? The Children? Bloodraven?). This would explain why they could still "see", as Varamyr saw noted regarding Thistle, without actually being able to control their own bodies (much like Hodor is still present in his body while Bran is warging him). Coldhands is just a wight that isn't being warged. I think there's a reason we've been introduced to the concept of warging humans, and of course to seeing just how powerful a warg can be in the case of people like Bloodraven and the singers. I also don't think there's really any fundamental difference between the fire-wights and something like Coldhands, except that one was raised by fire, and the other by ice. Coldhands seems to have lost part of his identity, just as has happened with Cat and Beric. It only makes sense that Coldhand's "symptoms" would be further progressed, since he's apparently been dead for awhile (even if he's Benjen, he'd still have been dead for nearly three years by the time Bran meets him, which is longer than either Beric or Cat).

I'm not so sure about the warging and refer you to my earlier musings on the "nature" of death in Westeros, where I suggested that rather than departing for the afterlife the spirit may remain with the body and bones, fading away gradually as it decomposes in the ground.

The process of creating a Wight whether of Ice and Fire would therefore require an awakening of that spirit. So far as Fire goes, the two we've definitely seen are Beric and Cat, Victarion is also a possibility, but we'll stick with the first two. Beric was revived on the point but not necessarily beyond the point of death. His cognitive function was good other than the fact he was bound into his mission and could only escape by embracing death. Cat on the other hand was well down the road to decay and her cognitive function seems impaired accordingly. Either way, both were relatively fresh when they were revived.

Up north in the cold, bodies are preserved longer. Therefore when they are revived as Wights their bodies if in sufficiently good condition to function may well have been dead for much longer than those revived by fire south of the Wall and although the physical body might have been preserved the spirit has faded far more than in the fresher southern bodies.

The point I've driving at is that most Wights, when deprived of the purpose for which they were revived seem pretty aimless. Coldhands obviously isn't and I'm suggesting this isn't due to a different magic or a different process, but because he was revived, used and discarded when much fresher than the average northern wight and while his spirit was still relatively intact, which is why he behaves more like Beric. Theoretically the same might apply to Small Paul but as he wasn't exactly much of an intellectual before he was killed its a bit optimistic to expect much brilliance from him afterwards.

[redriver]

Mention wha? Didn't you say he was sucking the life force out of the boy? You mean the Ice dragon story? Please elaborate :)

I went from bite initially, to taking the babies life force into the Other's,but then again I didn't use the word kiss.I think you put it better.