Heresy 10

[darrylzero]

The one thing that I've felt like these heresies have been missing is a sustained effort to relate events in the north to what appears to be its inverse in Asshai and the Shadow Lands. There have been some good thoughts, for sure, like the idea that the Shadow Lands are the direct result of the Children's raising of the Wall to protect themselves from humanity, but I feel like we could use more. So, I've been trying to think of what I could add that might resonate with all you heretics, but I've struggled.

Today, I felt like I had a breakthrough of sorts while reading this thread. Here's what I posted there:

How does this symmetry work? When the seasons punish Asshai, is it summer or winter in Westeros?

It's possible, for example, that the "long winters" are actually just periods of extreme temperatures, right? Colder in the northern hemisphere and hotter in the southern hemisphere, for example (though here we've got magical rather than scientific "hemispheres"). By this logic, it's roughly the same thing that threatens both places, and restoring balance is good for both places.

Under these circumstances, Mel's role is a little confusing. I firmly believe that R'hllor and the Great Other are human constructs invented to help explain fire magic, the Others, and the seasons, but she'd still be sewing the seeds of less heat and light and shadow in Asshai and neighboring lands by "defeating" the "Great Other." It would indicate, at the least, that her faith has things pretty mixed up. I think, though, what this disjuncture indicates is that this both seasonal extremes ebbing and flowing with the rise of magic is the wrong way of looking at it. Rather, the entire world gets either colder or warmer simultaneously, depending on the season, regardless of hemisphere.

So, if the long seasons are planetary or system-wide phenomena, then you would assume that the "good guys" in Asshai want long winters, right? (However, we can assume that just as there are summer snows in the north, "winters" are still quite hot in Asshai). In this way, Mel's agenda is bad for Asshai and she's the semi-sinister figure she appeared to be before Dance (and very well may be the fire-equivalent of the Others). However, she is actually good for Westeros (at least in the short term). By contrast Quaithe is probably less compromised and more moral, but what she wants most (no more long summers) may contradict Westerosi interests.

I think this is an interesting juxtaposition. It would imply that the key (contra to what we assume the Others, on the one hand, and Mel/Moqorro/Benerro, on the other want) is balance. The happy ending to the song of ice and fire, if there is one, is the restoration of balance. That's not so different from what many other people have theorized, but I found it helpful for myself at least to lay it out in this way. The interesting question, as far as Asshai goes (assuming no new character introductions), will be whether Quaithe is aware of this and can serve as an enlightened adviser, or whether she just wants winter in the north to relieve conditions in Asshai. I'm not sure which I would find more interesting.

What does this have to offer our heretical thoughts about the history of the north? What do our heresies have to offer this line of thought?

If things get worse/colder beyond the wall at the same time as they get worse/hotter in Asshai, then Mel's presence in the north might mean that the true cause of both is in the Lands of Always Winter and that defeating whatever threat is in the North is the key to restoring balance (rather than there being two independent threats). This could then easily be related to the history of the interactions between the Children and humans, and it would justify a primary fixation on Westeros when it might otherwise appear that what's happening on the other side of the world is just as important. But doesn't Mel want more light/heat/shadow? Why would she want to defeat the force that causes them both to rise?

There are a lot of things I like about the idea that both could be suffering in similar ways at similar times, but I can't easily reconcile it with what little we know on the subject. Instead, I propose that Mel's Manichean vision of the world is roughly accurate, except that both ice and fire are threatening (though neither is evil) and balance is what's best for living things. Lots of other posters have said similar things, not trying to claim any credit, just establishing the framework. My guess is that the Children (and probably Bloodraven) will be the people who understand that balance is what's needed, and that a purely military victory over the white walkers will not be sufficient. It may be a necessary precondition for restoring balance, though, hard to say. That depends on why all this is happening, I think, which is where this wonderful thread has a lot to say. I see at least possibilities, each with their own implications:

1) The Others and/or the white walkers (which may or may not be exactly the same thing) predated the conflict between the Children and the First Men. Perhaps the children used them as an ally of convenience when war broke out with humanity (and they probably had something to do the Night King), but they are not responsible for the out of whack seasons.

2) There were forces of ice emanating from the North that the Children tapped into to protect themselves from humans. This attempt to use these forces of cold may well have resulted in the seasons being out of balance. Perhaps the wood dancers were transformed into white walkers. How the remaining Children/greenseers feel about that is open to interpretation, though. What we've seen indicates to me that -- if this is true -- the Children have come to believe that their wood dancer / white walker relatives have become too malicious/dangerous/evil and now regret their choice (and are working to rectify it, along with Bloodraven, by ending the long seasons).

3) There was a schism among the Children. Some (perhaps the wood dancers) wanted to fight back harder against humanity, while others (possibly the greenseers) thought peace made more sense. The violent faction behaved much as in theory 2 above, but the peaceful faction never wanted this (rather than coming to regret it). My little pet version of this theory is that wood dancers were always made from stolen human babies (I assume that the white walkers, while happy to take Craster's babies in tribute, also steal babies from wildlings to grow their numbers). The pact between the Children and the First Men was fundamentally untenable for the wood dancers because it meant no more stolen human babies, meaning they would cease to exist. So, they turned to this ice force up north, causing the long winters, in order to learn how to reproduce themselves (transforming themselves into the white walkers). However, regardless of whether I'm onto anything with stolen human babies and the wood dancers, I think the possibility that the Others and / or the white walkers are the result of a particular faction of Children is pretty high. I find this perspective very resonant with their weariness.

I'd love to wrap this up a bit more, but I grow weary myself. Am I onto anything? What am I missing?

[lokisnow]

Perhaps Craster's sons are being taken and raised on some Land of Always Winter WW-owned & operated human stud farm. Maybe the WhiteWalkers are hive/colony creatures, taking males back to their Heart of Winter Queen to breed and create more White Walkers. Maybe the "corpse wife" from NightKing was herself a WhiteWalker Queen (The Queen, perhaps? Do we know what happened to the corpse wife?)

Bored, thought I'd fire a few shots into the dark. Something's bound to hit the target eventually, right?

This would explain the lack of culture. You can't have a culture if you don't have individuals, you just have "the Will" of the Hive mind leader, I suppose this is a form of culture, but if there is no individuality, there really isn't a human analogue. Ant colonies are very cool to look at, but they're not built with "culture."

And since Black Crow is so damned determined to force in one of Martin's non ASOIAF stories into ASOIAF, I will do the same and suggest that if the Other's are hive like, they are perhaps VERY much like the creatures of Martin's greatest short story--his short story masterpiece, imo--Sandkings.

The Others as Sandkings would also fit in with Sidhe, as they're hive/hill oriented.

And if there is a Sandkings similarity it would also provide a mechanism for how the wights are raised. The Others are capable of a limited telepathy that allows the hive to function--as we've seen with Bran and Hodor and Varamyr and the woman, human minds can fight off telepathic attacks, but dead humans (if the spirit is still present) don't offer such resistence, and the Others Hive can take over dead things.

this would also provide a mechanism to explain wargs. We know that Others and Humans can/have interbred--particularly we know that the Starks have done so, Warging would be a weak sauce descendant of the original Others Hive mind.

This could mean that Jon or Bran's journey is into the heart of winter to kill the Sandking queen, which would cause all the Sandking automatons to go inert.

Crackpot Alternatively, it could mean that Jon or Bran are going into the heart of winter on an inverted bridal quest, they're going to be a sacrifice to the queen to be a willing breeder, this will end the war (and presuming the Other queen kills after mating, probably end their lives as well). How sadly ironic would it be if the Others are only rising because they're about to die off and the humans have not sent their sacrifice in generations--like the Prince of Pentos--the humans have betrayed the Others and have not sent the Prince who was Promised.

Again that's explicitly contradicted both by Maester Luwin who tells Bran how the Pact endured until the Andals came and by the stories of the slaughter of the Children by the Andals which triggered that flight. The point being that their flight from the kingdoms below the Neck is therefore explicable, but their flight from the North as well implies a breaking of the Pact.

It doesn't necessarily imply that because humans are still humans, Pact or not. There could be consistently minor things for millenia without officially 'breaking the Pact' and entering open war. Small enclaves of humans could still be hostile towards the Children without creating casus belli to end the pact. I don't think open war ever broke out in the north that broke the pact--rather, millenia happened and the children couldn't keep up any more than the direwolves could.

I think humans just outbred the children and overpopulated the north. This increased human footprint meant there was more human/children interaction. Thus when anything went wrong, humans would blame some force outside the community--whether it is the Freys blaming the 'frogmen' or the Wulls blaming the Liddels, or the Umbers hunting down a wolf pack that was killing chickens and children, communities have a way of blaming anything outside themselves. This would have led to a clash of conflicts over the years that hunted the direwolves to extinction south of the wall, and similarly would have tired and reduced the children's numbers. Eventually I would expect they would just mass emigrate, as there was no more room for them south of the wall.

This is all probably true of Giants as well.

[Lummel]

...I think humans just outbred the children and overpopulated the north. This increased human footprint meant there was more human/children interaction. Thus when anything went wrong, humans would blame some force outside the community--whether it is the Freys blaming the 'frogmen' or the Wulls blaming the Liddels, or the Umbers hunting down a wolf pack that was killing chickens and children, communities have a way of blaming anything outside themselves. This would have led to a clash of conflicts over the years that hunted the direwolves to extinction south of the wall, and similarly would have tired and reduced the children's numbers. Eventually I would expect they would just mass emigrate, as there was no more room for them south of the wall...

OK but there are men north of the Wall too and in any case it still implies that the white walkers are better neighbours for the children than Men.

[lokisnow]

I'm not so sure about the warging and refer you to my earlier musings on the "nature" of death in Westeros, where I suggested that rather than departing for the afterlife the spirit may remain with the body and bones, fading away gradually as it decomposes in the ground.

We know it's in the bones because Bran tells us, the wight flesh doesn't stop until Summer cracks the bones for the marrow, then it abruptly 'dies'.

The silent sisters tradition of reducing a body to bones rather than mummifying it should fit in here somewhere too.

OK but there are men north of the Wall too and in any case it still implies that the white walkers are better neighbours for the children than Men.

The same population pressures would push men north of the wall too.

[darrylzero]

Beric was revived on the point but not necessarily beyond the point of death. His cognitive function was good other than the fact he was bound into his mission and could only escape by embracing death. Cat on the other hand was well down the road to decay and her cognitive function seems impaired accordingly. Either way, both were relatively fresh when they were revived.

I certainly agree that this is a valid interpretation of what we've read, but I'm not convinced of it. Beric was definitely losing parts of himself each time, but I'm not convinced he was bound to his mission any more than he was before he died the first time. Maybe that's just because the Brotherhood Without Banners really resonates with me, but it seems pretty natural to me that he would continue his mission. Everyone else seemed into it. Where do we get the idea that he had some particularly intense fixation on it any more than the rest of them? I feel like you're building this assumption into your argument at a pretty basic level, but it still just seems like an assumption to me. Is there particular textual evidence that supports it? Or is it a political argument, of sorts, that the cause of Brotherhood Without Banners is undeserving of such single-minded devotion?

As for Cat, it does seem like there's less of her there, but it's hard for me to tell whether she lost parts of the woman we remember because of resurrection or because of an all-consuming rage related to the Red Wedding (in and of itself and also because it's sort of the last straw after the "death" of Bran and Rickon and the probable death of Arya). So, I think the jury is still out here.

Up north in the cold, bodies are preserved longer. Therefore when they are revived as Wights their bodies if in sufficiently good condition to function may well have been dead for much longer than those revived by fire south of the Wall and although the physical body might have been preserved the spirit has faded far more than in the fresher southern bodies.

The point I've driving at is that most Wights, when deprived of the purpose for which they were revived seem pretty aimless. Coldhands obviously isn't and I'm suggesting this isn't due to a different magic or a different process, but because he was revived, used and discarded when much fresher than the average northern wight and while his spirit was still relatively intact, which is why he behaves more like Beric. Theoretically the same might apply to Small Paul but as he wasn't exactly much of an intellectual before he was killed its a bit optimistic to expect much brilliance from him afterwards.

This makes a lot of sense to me, but I'm not sure. How much do we know about when wights are reanimated? One thing that seems clear is that they rise quite some time after the white walkers do whatever they do to them. Think about Othor and Jafer Flowers, for example. They were returned to the Wall after they had been made into wights, we assume, but before they had risen. It's not until that night that they rise. Is that important?

As an explanation for Coldhands, I feel like we need more. Was he killed at night and reanimated immediately? Why?

I don't know, that just doesn't feel that interesting to me. I'm the Coldhands is the Night King theory more.

[Black Crow]

OK but there are men north of the Wall too and in any case it still implies that the white walkers are better neighbours for the children than Men.

I think an easier way of putting it is that the Children apparently don't see the Others/Sidhe as a threat simply because they are both numbered among the Old Races.

[Eyron]

Yeah I think the Children and the Others had adapted to eachother during the millennias, the Children did what they had to do (if there where any conflicts at all with the Others) before men came to Westeros.

I went from bite initially, to taking the babies life force into the Other's,but then again I didn't use the word kiss.I think you put it better.

Ah, I see. But the kiss is not necessarily meant to take life from them, just make them different, maybe to make them able to live where they are taken afterwards. If it's anything similar to Adara, it doesn't harm them. Not that it must be the same mind you, just a possibility.

[Eyron]

This makes a lot of sense to me, but I'm not sure. How much do we know about when wights are reanimated? One thing that seems clear is that they rise quite some time after the white walkers do whatever they do to them. Think about Othor and Jafer Flowers, for example. They were returned to the Wall after they had been made into wights, we assume, but before they had risen. It's not until that night that they rise. Is that important?

We do know that some rise immediately, I mean instantly, like Tormunds son and Thistle was pretty quick about it too.

I think Othor and Jafer were plants, and not *warged* or *activated* before the right time had come. They lay for a night and half a day (or something close) in the woods before taken into Castle Black, and then awoke during the second night.

Othors eyes changed from the first time they looked at him dead and to when Jon saw him trying to kill him and the Old Bear. The "light was not on" when he was found even though his eyes seemed blue, but he had the blue flickering flame in them when he was activated.

There has been a lot of discussion on how the wights could come through the Wall, and my opinion on that is that since the wights were not triggered, still regular frozen dead, they were not magical and whatever magic is in the Wall was circumvented.

And the dead wildlings Jon put in the ice cells (those that has not woken up again) were bound by iron chains, but they were also found dead in the weirwood grove which could have protected them from becoming wights.

There was a thread about the wights once, but I think this is the condensed sum of it.

[Lummel]

I thought they were sleeper agents :)

More to the point - who says that the Wall is a magical barrier and a barrier to what precisely? Aren't we just making assumptions based on what Sam says Coldhands told him? Maybe the problem that Jafer and Othor have is that the front door is closed and it is a long way to climb over the Wall...

[Eyron]

Plants = sleeper agents... Maybe plants is not a good word for that :) On the other hand they were vegetables, oho! :leaving:

[Eyron]

About the magic in the Wall, there is the things Ygritte tells Jon, that the Wall was built by blood, and it protects itself. Everything except the blood part can be explained by natural events of course, but I think she was right, blood went into the foundation of the Wall. Then Coldhands says he cannot go though the Wall, which could be untrue or he could mean that he should not go through the Wall for other reasons. Maybe someone is keeping watch on him, and he can't go south of the Wall for that reason?

There is also the Black Gate that is clearly magical, so there is some info on that magic is involved in the building of the Wall.

[Lykos]

Uncat made a very good point about the Wall needing to be upheld by magic, for ice would sag like a blob otherwise. I really don´t like all the blood magic, though I´ve come to believe recently that blood could be carrier of the spirit, life-force, or soul in this story. I think that Bran´s vision of the sacrifice, carried out by a woman whose description made me think of the Ghost of High Heart, is very important. Maybe that´s the disguise the Singers choose for their interaction with men.

Regarding the planted sleeping agents, if they were meant to be carried through the Wall, someone must have included Ghost finding them and the Old Bear deciding not to burn them in the plan.

forgot a point.

[mor2]

@Eaeron I, I am pretty sure this one was established by GRRM. Besides this is logical, much of the wall is made of water and the temperature is not always bellow freezing point and yet it keep it shape and at best "weeps".

[Eyron]

Thanks, Mor2, so it is confirmed then that there is magic in the Wall? I only have a vague memory about GRRM saying that, but wasn't sure.

[Stark@heart]

SandKings is one of my fav stories but I haven't noticed any paralels yet. Unless, they lie in the Land of Always Winter. I haven't a clue what's there so this gives me something new to ponder...

But if cheese doodles show up in the Westeros, I'll be pissed. Oh wait? it's already happened, ( bodyswitching/permanet) warging. See what I'm saying?

GRRM has been writing his whole life, some themes and characters/universes he likes better than others and he expands on those stories or takes a different approach on a theme, he does not recycle his work. He probably goes out of his way to avoid the appearance of this happening so I wouldn't bet the farm that things that seems familiar or similar are.

BTW: Off topic but has anyone else read the story I mentioned above and as a result developed an adversion :ack: to cheese doodles? Or is it just me?

[mor2]

@Eaeron, I didnt said he confirmed it, I said that I am pretty sure he did (I'll have to check to make sure).

[Eyron]

@mor2

Ah, sorry I misunderstood.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Sorry to interrupt this thread with a random thought, but . . .

If the White Walkers are not the enemies of Man, but just ice rangers herding men to the Wall, then who or what is causing the dark, cold disaster at Hardhome?

[Elaena Targaryen]

Here is the SSM about the Wall and Martin seems to be his usual evasive self, understanably, I still think it clears up the Wall is mostly ice raised with the aid of magic which I'm sure the magic is still active in the Wall like Mel thinks ( one thing she got right, lol ) and like at Storm's End....

September 09, 2000

The Wall

I am having discussions about the Wall. Some think that it is an impossibility for a structure of that size to remain standing if it is made from ice alone. Personally I think that the wall started of a lot smaller and slowly grew larger over the centuries as the black brothers trampled layer after layer of blue metal or small stones across the top. If that is the case then the wall is probably a mixture of crushed rocks and ice, which in my opinion would be a VERY sturdy construction, as demonstrated by Jon when he filled the barrels with water and used them to crush the battering ram.

Well, the Wall has undoubtedly "eaten" a lot of crushed stone over the centuries and millenia, especially around the castles where the black brothers regularly gravelled the walkways. But there's a lot more ice than there is stone.

Yes, the Wall was much smaller when first raised. It took hundreds of years to complete and thousands to reach it's present height.

If time is permiting would you mind giving a brief description on how the wall was constructed?

Much of those details are lost in the mists of time and legend. No one can even say for certain if Brandon the Builder ever lived. He is as remote from the time of the novels as Noah and Gilgamesh are from our own time.

But one thing I will say, for what it's worth -- more than ice went into the raising of the Wall. Remember, these are =fantasy= novels.

[Elaena Targaryen]

Thanks for bringing up Sandkings!

I've just finished reading and

Oh My!!!