Heresy 10

[Lummel]

Sorry, it was an Asterix joke and not a comment on the gender of priests - the Druid Miraculix, or Getafix in English and Panoramix in French in the Asterix books has a long white beard and uses a sickle to gather mistletoe.

[Eyron]

Sorry, it was an Asterix joke and not a comment on the gender of priests - the Druid Miraculix, or Getafix in English and Panoramix in French in the Asterix books has a long white beard and uses a sickle to gather mistletoe.

I kind of gathered that much :D But I wanted to be clear since I don't think I mentioned the female priests!

[Lummel]

Sorry but I tremble with fear when I gaze upon your knitted avatar and wished to avert your tentacled wrath dread one.

So you think there is a moonsingers connection or a link to the white woman like Val or the Night's King's fancy lady in your icelandic lady priests?

[Ser Lepus]

No, sorry, I can't recall anything that specific about the sacrifices.

I have found the source: The Ynglinga Saga tells that the first year of famine the swedish sacrifced oxes, the second year of famine they sacrificed human beings, and the third year of famine they sacrificed king Dómaldi.

Another source claims that king Olaf Tretelglia was also sacrificed because of bad crops and famine, but it doesn´t says if they tried animal and human sacrifices before going for him (I guess they did; killing the king is too much of a big deal to be done without trying other options first).

[Black Crow]

I'm rather inclined to think myself, given that GRRM has mentioned the Sidhe that the White Lady could be the Queen of Faerie (or Queen of Elfland) and that ties in with another random thought I'd like to throw into the mix.

Iron, as we've discussed, doesn't do the Faerie folk's magic any good at all, and a trick worth remembering if you happen to be called Tam Lin or are otherwise invited/decoyed or otherwise compelled to enter a hollow hill is that you need an iron key to get out again - which can be as basic as sticking an iron shovel into the earth.

That in turn however leads on to another point, namely because they are not entirely in our world, time passes differently in Faerie. Usually this means that our hero goes off to Faerie for a year and a day and emerges to find a century has passed (the actual timings vary from story cycle to story cycle but you get the idea) and this may account for the long periods between appearances of the Others/Sidhe. Conversely, I'm fairly sure it was an elastic sort of thing and could work the other way as well, which might explain the Sidhe/Others collecting Craster's sons as babies and their returning fully grown just a few years later. We're talking real magic here of course.

[alienarea]

I'm rather inclined to think myself, given that GRRM has mentioned the Sidhe that the White Lady could be the Queen of Faerie (or Queen of Elfland) and that ties in with another random thought I'd like to throw into the mix.

Iron, as we've discussed, doesn't do the Faerie folk's magic any good at all, and a trick worth remembering if you happen to be called Tam Lin or are otherwise invited/decoyed or otherwise compelled to enter a hollow hill is that you need an iron key to get out again - which can be as basic as sticking an iron shovel into the earth.

That in turn however leads on to another point, namely because they are not entirely in our world, time passes differently in Faerie. Usually this means that our hero goes off to Faerie for a year and a day and emerges to find a century has passed (the actual timings vary from story cycle to story cycle but you get the idea) and this may account for the long periods between appearances of the Others/Sidhe. Conversely, I'm fairly sure it was an elastic sort of thing and could work the other way as well, which might explain the Sidhe/Others collecting Craster's sons as babies and their returning fully grown just a few years later. We're talking real magic here of course.

So Benjen could show up thinking only a day or two have passed ...

[Black Crow]

Or the Nights King might be Coldhands

[Lummel]

...That in turn however leads on to another point, namely because they are not entirely in our world, time passes differently in Faerie. Usually this means that our hero goes off to Faerie for a year and a day and emerges to find a century has passed...

Glad you mentioned that because one impression I got from the last Bran chapter was that time was passing differently. Was it just me or did he seem to be in another realm cosmologically speaking?

[Black Crow]

Now you mention it, the passage of time did seem a bit odd - and that may be all of a piece with visions of times past.

[Ser Lepus]

Glad you mentioned that because one impression I got from the last Bran chapter was that time was passing differently. Was it just me or did he seem to be in another realm cosmologically speaking?

Now you mention it, the passage of time did seem a bit odd - and that may be all of a piece with visions of times past.

Well, he is a little boy, and time flows more slowly for them; also, he is underground, unable to see the light of the sun, so his perception of time would be a bit messed too because of that.

[Eyron]

Sorry but I tremble with fear when I gaze upon your knitted avatar and wished to avert your tentacled wrath dread one.

So you think there is a moonsingers connection or a link to the white woman like Val or the Night's King's fancy lady in your icelandic lady priests?

:cool4: I may be sleeping in the dark depths but poke me and I shall rise. Duck and cover. :whip:

Don't know about the connection with the moonsingers, Val or the White Lady, but I think it has to do with the white-haired woman Bran saw in his vision of early Winterfell. That struck me as a ritual and not a regular execution. She had a bronze sickle, and we've been reminded umphteen times that a waxing or waning moon looks like a blade of a sickle... And it was autumn I believe, the time to make sacrifices to the Cold Gods of winter.

I have found the source: The Ynglinga Saga tells that the first year of famine the swedish sacrifced oxes, the second year of famine they sacrificed human beings, and the third year of famine they sacrificed king Dómaldi.

Another source claims that king Olaf Tretelglia was also sacrificed because of bad crops and famine, but it doesn´t says if they tried animal and human sacrifices before going for him (I guess they did; killing the king is too much of a big deal to be done without trying other options first).

Ah, those were the ones in my link to Norse religion too, but I spelled them differently. Allthough sacrifices have been confirmed from excavations, the Ynglingatal and Heimskringla is not undisputed in their authenticity on the details of the sacrifices. They are records that come from later times, and from sources that may have been influenced by eachother, and that had a reason to make it more fantastic than it actually was. The Norwegian king wanted to link his ancestors to the Norse gods, and the king had his cousin write the Ynglingatal to make it so, according to most academics. Most of the old Norse sagas are written by skald-s, story tellers/poets, and some are more political than accurate. So I think there is an element of truth in them but I don't think they are correct in everything. The Christian priests wrote about the Nordic peoples but as in the case of Adam of Bremen, it was not first hand material and likely they had access to the sagas and could be strongly influenced by them and they had a political motive too.

Glad you mentioned that because one impression I got from the last Bran chapter was that time was passing differently. Was it just me or did he seem to be in another realm cosmologically speaking?

I had a similar feeling too, Bran was lost in time, he saw that time was passing from the moons cycle, but didn't experience it fully. I thought it was only that the weirwood experience of jumping around in time messed with his head, and that the trees experience of time was influencing his psyche.

Ugh, I hope we don't get a 'Bran is suddenly 5 yrs older' when he comes out... Meh, that would be uncool. The Reversed Narnia effect...

One thing that comes to mind is the fact that Bran has more or less been sacrificed to a tree in order to gain knowledge. Granted, he wasn't hanged, but the current condition he finds himself in isn't all that far from it.

That is the way I see it too, the greenseers sacrifice themselves to the trees, they give up their physical lives to become part of the godhood. Their bodies are alive for a while but in essence they give up their freedom and individuality.

As for Aun & Craster, I like the analogy. I'd also point out that the opposite appears to be true for the Red God. Rather than sacrificing his sons (if he had any), Beric Dondarrion sacrifices himself in order to prolong Cat's life. To the Old Gods, you sacrifice someone else to prolong your own life. But to the Red God, you sacrifice yourself to prolong the life of someone else. Could be something to that.

I don't think the Red god gives life without sacrifice of someone, be it yourself or another (only death can pay for life), Thoros didn't die when he kissed life into Beric, but a lot of men died if the battle when he did it. I also don't think the Old gods necessarily are the ones that takes the sacrifices of others, but we can't say for sure yet. Craster sacrifices to the Cold Gods, who I think are the white walkers or the ones the white walkers serve, not necessarily the Old gods (the collective of the dead Children or the trees themselves). And we also don't know if the boys actually die.

[Black Crow]

We were both (Lummel and I) thinking not only of the slightly surreal atmosphere in the caves but the business of the sickle moons coming and going.

[Lummel]

...The Norwegian king wanted to link his ancestors to the Norse gods, and the king had his cousin write the Ynglingatal to make it so, according to most academics. Most of the old Norse sagas are written by skald-s, story tellers/poets, and some are more political than accurate. So I think there is an element of truth in them but I don't think they are correct in everything. The Christian priests wrote about the Nordic peoples but as in the case of Adam of Bremen, it was not first hand material and likely they had access to the sagas and could be strongly influenced by them and they had a political motive too.

The other thing about Adam of Bremen is as a Christian he is interpreting the pagan norse in the light of Christainity - for instance the pagans have a Trinity of gods at their old Uppsala shrine, but on the other hand the pagans by that time were obviously in contact with the Christain world and may have picked up the idea from them. The same thing goes for Snorri Sturluson - he's writing a couple of hundred years after convertion to christainity, that story of Odin hanging himself sounds very much like Christ (particularly if you read "The Dream of the Rood" - an Anglo-Saxon poem giving a tree's eye view of the cruxifiction) but for our purposes thats all neither here nor there. All these myths have been printed and avaliable, discussed and analysed and are probable sources for GRRM.

I had a similar feeling too, Bran was lost in time, he saw that time was passing from the moons cycle, but didn't experience it fully. I thought it was only that the weirwood experience of jumping around in time messed with his head, and that the trees experience of time was influencing his psyche.

Ugh, I hope we don't get a 'Bran is suddenly 5 yrs older' when he comes out... Meh, that would be uncool. The Reversed Narnia effect...

Dunno, if I may respectfully disagree, I was thinking of Osian who went to Tir-na-nog, coming back to our world he gets trapped and stuck here but hundreds of years after his family have all died so he is tormented by feelings of loss for both his family and for the land of eternal youth. Admittedly this would be more bitter than bittersweet, but there is a feeling of isolation and loss in how Bloodraven speaks of his family and his sweetheart long dead. (Mind you all the Stark siblings are being alienated by their experiences, returns to 'normal' life may not be possible for all of them).

[Eyron]

We were both (Lummel and I) thinking not only of the slightly surreal atmosphere in the caves but the business of the sickle moons coming and going.

Was the moon cycle out of order in any way? I don't remember that.

That just reminded me of something, the month in the moon cycle start with the first waxing crescent moon after new moon, so the *sickle* marks the first day of a month, and the end. Maybe the Children just kept track of time by this? I think there is something more too it.

Does anyone remember when Bran had his paste? I mean if it was under a crescent, full or other - moon.

[lokisnow]

Here is the description of Oldstones (Catelyn, ASoS)

They reached Oldstones after eight more days of steady rain, and made their camp upon the hill overlooking the Blue Fork, within a ruined stronghold of the ancient river kings. Its foundations remained amongst the weeds to show where the walls and keeps had stood, but the local smallfolk had long ago made off with most of the stones to raise their barns and septs and holdfasts. Yet in the center of what once would have been the castle’s yard, a great carved sepulcher still rested, half hidden in waist-high brown grass amongst a stand of ash.

The lid of the sepulcher had been carved into a likeness of the man whose bones lay beneath, but the rain and the wind had done their work. The king had worn a beard, they could see, but otherwise his face was smooth and featureless, with only vague suggestions of a mouth, a nose, eyes, and the crown about the temples. His hands folded over the shaft of a stone warhammer that lay upon his chest. Once the warhammer would have been carved with runes that told its name and history, but all that the centuries had worn away. The stone itself was cracked and crumbling at the corners, discolored here and there by spreading white splotches of lichen, while wild roses crept up over the king’s feet almost to his chest.

Hmm. Sounds like the grave of a White Walker, and Catelyn just assumes the features are weathered smooth. ;) Could this be the grave of the Night King?

Also, all this talk of Oldstones. It just occured to me that Jenny of Old Stones could fit into the pale woman mythology you're compiling. Likely, she was a moonsinger as well, but it would not surprise me if Jenny of Oldstones (whom Egg married, iirc) would have a description extremely akin to Ramsey's mother. And Aerys was a bit of Ramsey esque monster in the end... That intermarrying may by very important.

I think cutting right back to the shamanistic stuff, warging and so on makes a lot of sense. We've already got the Sidhe and the Singers, so adding vampires, werwolves and other hobgoblins would just be messy, without advancing the story.

speaking of hobgoblins or grumkins, everyone assumes Jaquen was/is a faceless man. But he did grant Arya three wishes, which is what grumkins do, iirc? Grumkins = leprechauns?

[Jojen]

Maybe Lightbringer can "cut the cold." If it's actually a sword. Or maybe a dragon.

Sorry, old argument.

[Jojen]

Was the moon cycle out of order in any way? I don't remember that. That just reminded me of something, the month in the moon cycle start with the first waxing crescent moon after new moon, so the *sickle* marks the first day of a month, and the end. Maybe the Children just kept track of time by this? I think there is something more too it. Does anyone remember when Bran had his paste? I mean if it was under a crescent, full or other - moon.

The last phase that is mentioned before he eats the paste is a crescent moon. I believe this was done purposely to combine the images in our minds of a knife, the "blood" in the paste with the knowledge of Jojen's absence from the scene to make us believe that they are all connected.

[Lummel]

...speaking of hobgoblins or grumkins, everyone assumes Jaquen was/is a faceless man. But he did grant Arya three wishes, which is what grumkins do, iirc? Grumkins = leprechauns?

Doesn't everybody offer three wishes? Golden fish caught in the fishermans net, Djinn trapped in magic lamps...must be the going rate.

But I thought if you caught a leprechaun it would take you to its pot of gold, do you get wishes as well - because that would be a bargain!

[Black Crow]

The last phase that is mentioned before he eats the paste is a crescent moon. I believe this was done purposely to combine the images in our minds of a knife, the "blood" in the paste with the knowledge of Jojen's absence from the scene to make us believe that they are all connected.

Indeed, but then time appears to drift with a sense a long time passing in an almost dreamlike state before the sickle moon is mentioned again

[Cryler]

George could have done that to keep the timeline close to the other characters since Bran had very few chapters.