Heresy 10

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

Rather than compare Brandon the Builder to Noah/Gilgamesh, I think it would be more apt to compare him to Egyptian Pharaohs who buillt the pyramid. It's one thing to have the oral history of noah, with a wooden boat he may or may not have built, and quite another to have a history for a massive man made structure that remains very much in existence. It's there now (the wall), and it's been there for a unknown number of millenia, but throughout that time, humans have resided around it. There aren't and civilization gaps.... the same first men present at it's creation are still there.

Thus, if we must equate Brandon the builder with a historical figure, I would say Imhotep would be more accurate. The best evidence of his existence is the fact that his creation remains standing.

[Lummel]

Well since it is a SSM and thus canonical, Noah is GRRM's preferred analogy. So in our terms Bran the Builder building the Wall (and everything else in Westeros too) might be more like attributing the building of Stonehenge to Merlin than a pyramid to imhotep.

I'm not sure it really matters, it could be background - westeros has its legends even as we have ours while at the same time the legends have a power because they are in the imagination of the characters. So Sansa is prepared to go along with Ser Dontos once she think of him as Florian and maybe the notion of Bran the Builder will inspire our Bran to be a rebuilder.

What we can say about the Wall is that it is there. It has been retrofitted into it's present usage. The only original doorway through it that we have seen is only suitable for individuals and as Uncat has pointed out it's scale, mass and bulk imply that magic must have been used to construct and maintain it.

[Black Crow]

I think a more likely reason for the gradual decline of the Children in the North is that the very act of raising the Wall was a self sacrifice by them.

They knowingly infused the Wall with their magic, knowing that it would weaken them over the centuries, causing them to dwindle as a race.

That could be a reasonable hypothesis if it wasn’t contradicted both by Osha, who said that the Children, the Giants and the other old races went beyond the wall, and by Maester Luwin, who even more explicitly declared that the Children fled there. That’s a deliberate movement, not a gradual dwindling, and as Lummel says its reasonable to infer that some event triggered that flight.

As to the event there are three stories that may fit; there’s the tale of Bran Stark the Nights King, who was in alliance with at least one of the old races, the Others/Sidhe, before being overthrown by his brother.

There’s the battle between the Nights Watch and the Others remembered in the song, “The Night that Ended”.

And there’s the story of the brothers Gorne and Gendel, defeated in a big battle by Stark of Winterfell and the Watch. Although this was ostensibly fought against the Wildlings there is a connection to the Children at least in the attempted flight through the caves.

Its possible that all three may in fact be different versions of the same event, although I suspect that Bran Stark the Nights King was defeated in the Night that Ended battle and that Gorne and Gendel were subsequently defeated and their people expelled beyond the Wall when they refused to bend the knee to Stark of Winterfell.

[Black Crow]

I’ve been thinking about this business of a possible connection between the Starks and the Others/Sidhe, or rather about the popular reaction to this particular heresy.

The Others/Sidhe are introduced to us in Old Nan’s words as cold dead things, and the White Lady of the Nights King story is likewise referred to as his corpse queen. They’re bad news, they’re the evil undead intent on the destruction of all life. Its understandable that a Stark connection with this evil should be an unpalatable idea.

Yet, cold aside, we’re seeing a different picture. They are not dead says GRRM, describing them instead as like the Sidhe. That, as I acknowledged in laying this revelation before the board was his advice to an artist, yet as any artist will confirm in order to truly represent someone its necessary to capture the character as well as the outward appearance, so the assertion that they don’t just look like but are an icy version of the Sidhe is a valid one.

Now expanding on GRRM’s description; far from being an evil gang of bloodthirsty zombies intent on the eradication of life, we if we look at the Sidhe we see instead a noble but fiercely touchy people, dangerous, and capable of great cruelty, but not consciously evil and equally capable of behaving honourably and generously to those who respect them. A very good parallel in the real world and outside of our folklore (I’m Scottish) are the Native American peoples such as the Comanche, to whom all those descriptions apply, and as I’ve remarked before that parallel is heavily reinforced by the way in the TV version the prologue had a very Last of the Mohicans feel with the Others/Sidhe portrayed not as ethereal figures, but woods runners.

As we’ve discussed before, arguably a link between the Starks and the Others/Sidhe through the giving up of changelings does seem possible and there are hints as to Ice and Winter that its so. Friendship and a link with the Children (the deeply creepy bunch in the caves) is applauded, so why not one with the warrior Sidhe?

[Bran Vras]

Well since it is a SSM and thus canonical, Noah is GRRM's preferred analogy. So in our terms Bran the Builder building the Wall (and everything else in Westeros too) might be more like attributing the building of Stonehenge to Merlin than a pyramid to imhotep.

I'm not sure it really matters, it could be background - westeros has its legends even as we have ours while at the same time the legends have a power because they are in the imagination of the characters. So Sansa is prepared to go along with Ser Dontos once she think of him as Florian and maybe the notion of Bran the Builder will inspire our Bran to be a rebuilder.

What we can say about the Wall is that it is there. It has been retrofitted into it's present usage. The only original doorway through it that we have seen is only suitable for individuals and as Uncat has pointed out it's scale, mass and bulk imply that magic must have been used to construct and maintain it.

Perhaps we could compare Bran the Builder to Prometheus: a mythic figure that brings a new technology for the benefit of mere mortals, perhaps even a technology that he stole from another race. In this case, the technology seems to be mortar. In the Stone against Wood thread, some thoughts have been devoted to the evolution of building technology in Westeros. There are a few significant traces of an era of unmortared stones in the stories. The succession of castles that lead to the Eyrie is instructing, I think: the castles become more and more archaic as one climbs.

Interestingly, mortar seems related to blood magic. (Old Nan mentions the blood in the mortar in Harrenhal. Jon Snow says that the castles at the Wall have the blood and bones of his brothers in the mortar.) So the introduction of mortar probably came along some sorcery. Indeed, we see that Storm's end, whose construction is attributed to Bran the Builder, for example, is warded with spells.

[redriver]

I thought I could get used to the idea of Crasters son's being changlings or changed into "Others" but not yet, since something interesting just struck me from your post above about what GRRM said.

The Others are alive.

So, they're alive but they don't reproduce and they need a host/vessel to continue their race. Not very practical when you don't have a symbotic/ mutual need relationship with the hosts you use, which totally goes against nature but this is fantasy and magic can make just about anything happen so I can kind of "get" it that way but it still just makes more sense to me if they are eating the poor things. Blood is a big deal in this series in all sorts of different ways so I think we'll see some kind of vamprire-ism whether is be actual blood drinking ( which may take place on the Isle of Faces ) or the taking of the lifeforce. I think it's kinda both - drink the blood to gain the life in the blood.

So, since they are alive, what do they eat/require to keep them healthy?

It's pretty much been decided here on the boards that Mel is not really a living person from her own chapter about how she doesn't feel the cold or eat. It's widely assumed that she is either feeding off Stannis's lifeforce ( I think, in this case his lifeforce is being used solely for the Shadowbabies since Stannis is her AA and to important to be used as only a meal) or is somehow fed by the flames of her fires/Rhloor/ fire magic or maybe its the human sacrifices she makes to R'hloor/ fire magic that sustain her? I happen to think it's a combo of pulling lifeforce from other people, either one on one or by burning them.

We've been told over and over that "only death can pay for life" The COTF (and some of their allies) at some point give their life over to the Weirtree/Old Gods so why should it be different for Mel or the Others?

So, how do the Other/Sidne pay for their life?

Maybe another part of Old Nan's story that was off the mark was who was actually feeding on the blood of newborn children.

BTW, my books are loaned out again so I can't look the story up for myself but does Old Nan actually say newborn children or does she say highborn? I'm like 90% sure that she says newborn and even if she didn't, saying highborn children is just a poke at the Stark kids. She might have just said children? It's getting foggier by the minute now so I'll move on.

This seems to be my favorite and to some, most out there CPT but this is the place for it, right?

Anyway, this is where the story, the boards and my own guesstimations have gotten me. I've read a lot of vampire fiction so that might explain it. I think Anne Rice was the greatest but she quit vampires when she found religion and I've had to make due with lesser takes on the genre.

What I'm trying to say it that maybe Twilight really did rot my brain. :drunk: Have fun sticking my pet theory with the pointy end!

I made a post on this point on page two of this thread concerning the part of the show where the Other picks up the baby boy that Craster has left out.

We can't dismiss what's in the show because we know the producers are aware of the overall story lines and resolutions of the books.

I think I said the Other bit the child and then it stopped crying.But I think it's more accurate to say the Other raised the child to mouth level,then it stopped crying and then it walked away with the child.

And by the way,this is not in dispute,I have it frozen on my TV as I write.You freeze frame as soon as the shining blue eye appears.

My take would be that the Other is taking the life force of the baby,which goes into the collective essence or godhood of the Others/Winter/Ice rather than nutrition for an individual.

Reading some more about the Sidhe,it appears that sections of the Sidhe are aligned to, and in control of various elemental forces such as air,water,earth etc.

Jojen tells Bran that the singers die and return to the earth godhood.Perhaps the Others can take life into their collective godhood too.Think of cold,white mist.

[Stark@heart]

I did think of the Others/rangers we've seen as elemental beings. We now know they are alive so I could see their godhood/magic source being elemental and represented like a cold,white mist or the mist may only be a manifestation of their power/magic source. Mel's Shadowbaby makes me think of this. She worships Fire and the creatures we've seen her call forth are made of shadow. It ties back to an earlier post. The real Others/Sidne could very well still be sleeping under the earth in their barrows and are sending forth the mist/cold magic to do their bidding making them more like the Undying.

[mor2]

I’ve been thinking about this business of a possible connection between the Starks and the Others/Sidhe, or rather about the popular reaction to this particular heresy.

I think that the Stark/Others connection is never going to happen. However, I find the idea of Others/Sidhe very intriguing, its very possible that GRRM drawn on some of this folklore.

[Francis Buck]

I think that the Stark/Others connection is never going to happen. However, I find the idea of Others/Sidhe very intriguing, its very possible that GRRM drawn on some of this folklore.

Honestly, the Stark/Other connection is the only thing in Heresy that I'm confidant will happen. It doesn't necessarily have to be an alliance or something (though I do think that's a possibility), but there are just way too many associations and connections for it all to mean nothing, and I've yet to see an alternative explanation for the majority of them.

Beyond that, however, I'm healthily skeptical of pretty much every theory. Of course, certain ones I like much more than others, but I wouldn't bet money on them. I would bet money on the Starks/Others though.

[alienarea]

A bit unrelated to the posts above, and probably discussed before, this is my catch of the day:

I imagine the wall as separating two empires, and Black Gate as an exchange point. Like the bridge between enemy nations used to exchange spies and have informal tasks. IMHO this is what it was in the beginning as a part of the pact between the CotF and the First Men. A member of the Night Watch would pass through the Black Gate, meet an emissary of the CotF, and recite the the vow of the Night Watch in the Old Tongue as proof that the watch was still true (this was possibly done by the Lord Commander once a year and he possibly was sacrificed after this, but it is irrelevant for now). We don't know about the other part of the pact - possibly giving the dragonglass knives. Since the CotF created the Long Night, their part of the pact is now to hold it back, cecause it costs them as well (think of it as cold war mutual destruction). This goes on for a long time, until the Andals show up.

Then the Old Tongue (and rituals) slowly fade, as does magic and the CotF. I speculate at some time the emissary of the CotF didn't show up, or the Night Watch failed to send someone speaking the Old Tongue (this could be caused maybe by the Night King or the Targaryens with the dragons visiting the wall, or something else ... Doom of Valyria, Hardhome, ...). Both sides are troubled by this, since they know it will trigger another Long Night. So basically the Night Watch starts ranging for the emmissary of the CotF, and the White Walkers start ranging for the Lord Commander who speaks the Old Tongue like a kind of Military Police for the CotF. Both sides are trying to hold back the Long Night, but fail to connect. In this scenario the Wights would be a product of the Long Night rising independently of the White Walkers.

Can't seem to fit in Craster, maybe because he sacrificed male infants that slowed the rising of the Long Night (so the Lord Commander in my first paragrapg would have been sacrificed as well).

How will it go on? The Long Night is rising, and because of assassinating Jon, a Lord Commander who swore in the Old Tongue, the Night Watch has finally proved it is no longer true. When they will store Jon in the wall (near the meat among smoke and salt), the wall will come down. Jon will stay 'dead' until the wall comes down, the blue flower in the wall. Because of the Long Night he will rise as a Wight clad in black ice armor. The blue eyed king who casts no shadow (Stannis is a red herring for this). That will lead to Danys battle against the Others at the Trident eventually.

[Black Crow]

I did think of the Others/rangers we've seen as elemental beings. We now know they are alive so I could see their godhood/magic source being elemental and represented like a cold,white mist or the mist may only be a manifestation of their power/magic source. Mel's Shadowbaby makes me think of this. She worships Fire and the creatures we've seen her call forth are made of shadow. It ties back to an earlier post. The real Others/Sidne could very well still be sleeping under the earth in their barrows and are sending forth the mist/cold magic to do their bidding making them more like the Undying.

Its worth noting in this context first that the Sidhe are said to ride the wind and second that when Gilly first talks about them she refers to them as the White Shadows.

[Eyron]

Hello heretics! Long time no see :) (I'm Eira with a new name and cute Cthulhu avatar)

Very good catch on the Sidhe! I love the connections to the myths, and now we even got one confirmed. But that was about how the Others look, and not what they really are. It could be that the Others are very similar to that myth, but that is not necessarily so.

I also read the comic novel and found the part with the exchange between the artist and GRRM most intriguing. One note on that, the artist had the Others looking more "robotic"[ETA: in his preliminary sketches] and that was answered by GRRM in that they were not dead and the rest that has already been quoted. My interpretation of that was that they were not zombies, dead men walking like the wights, and should look like living creatures. They looked very ethereal, like they don't answer to the laws of nature.

The thing is that I doubt they are alive by human standards, yes they are not zombies, but are they alive?

Did anyone bring up Jaime's dream of the Kingsguard and Rhaegar in this thread? I thought the description of their ghosts was very interesting, and very much like the Others in the comic novel. I see dead Rheagar with white hair flowing in the air just like the Others in the comic.

I'm still on the idea that the white mists are ghosts, since men are the ones buried in the burrows of the First Men. And a spirit that lives on is not really dead, it's just the flesh that is dead.

But I like the idea of the faeries too, that they come from some other dimension present in the same world. From beyond the curtain of light perhaps?

That just fit's less well with the Red priests doings, resurrecting people and striving for eternal life, but not at all symmetrical and equal to what the Ice faction is doing... If the Others are faery folk, could the Red Priests be trying to approximate their ways? Humans copying the way to eternal life?

When the Other takes Craster's son in the show, could he be giving him a kiss? Equivalent and opposite of the kiss of life maybe?

[Stark@heart]

I like the White Shadows reference because it ties in with Mel's shadows. It reaffirms my belief that the "magic" used to invoke these different entities and actions is the same and only the methods/rituals used is different.

Also like the idea that Crasters sons receive the opposite to the "kiss" that the Red Lot use to "reclaim" people.

[Ser Leftwich]

Well, I just fundamentally oppose the theory that the King in the North had to "cut a deal" with the Andals on anything.

The Children share the religion of the Northerners.

I sincerely believe you are completely on the wrong track with this part of your dissertation.

There is sharing and there is sharing. What is generally practiced in the North has evolved over time. Roose Bolton mentions entrails in tree limbs and we see what seems to be human sacrifice at the tree in Bran's visions.

Mayhaps the evolution of the Northern religious practices took a jump at a specific time, which had an impact on the Children's ability/desire to stay south of the Wall.

[Lykos]

<snip>

The thing is that I doubt they are alive by human standards, yes they are not zombies, but are they alive?

<snip>

When the Other takes Craster's son in the show, could he be giving him a kiss? Equivalent and opposite of the kiss of life maybe?

Basically this question has been rotating in my head the last two weeks. We know the wights are slow shambling creatures without a will of their own, but they retain their memory. We know the un-people of Rh´llor can make plans and have discussions, so I´d say they have a sort of will / spirit, but they loose their memory. The White Walkers don´t have a human body but they seem to be spirited. They seem to speak andmove inhumanly elegant and swift. I think they have bodies of Ice- ( crystals) taking form and spirit contained in human blood.

Do blood and weirwood sap and spirit belong to fire?

I also put wind close to fire. Fire needs air to breathe and wind to spread. Wind is generated by differences in air-pressure, which in turn are generated by temperature differences. Valyria had Storm Singers. Dany mentiones that not even they could prevent the doom.

[redriver]

That could be a reasonable hypothesis if it wasn’t contradicted both by Osha, who said that the Children, the Giants and the other old races went beyond the wall, and by Maester Luwin, who even more explicitly declared that the Children fled there. That’s a deliberate movement, not a gradual dwindling, and as Lummel says its reasonable to infer that some event triggered that flight.

As to the event there are three stories that may fit; there’s the tale of Bran Stark the Nights King, who was in alliance with at least one of the old races, the Others/Sidhe, before being overthrown by his brother.

There’s the battle between the Nights Watch and the Others remembered in the song, “The Night that Ended”.

And there’s the story of the brothers Gorne and Gendel, defeated in a big battle by Stark of Winterfell and the Watch. Although this was ostensibly fought against the Wildlings there is a connection to the Children at least in the attempted flight through the caves.

Its possible that all three may in fact be different versions of the same event, although I suspect that Bran Stark the Nights King was defeated in the Night that Ended battle and that Gorne and Gendel were subsequently defeated and their people expelled beyond the Wall when they refused to bend the knee to Stark of Winterfell.

As to the event that made the old races flee North of the Wall,instead of stories,perhaps it was an event.....

.....the building of the Wall.And that's even if the singers and the giants helped the mythical Bran to build it.

There is an extant pact between the Old Races and the FM at the end of the Long Night and a decision is made to build a wall to exclude the evil forces of Winter from the realms of men.

But this leaves the singers et al with a decision.Do we want to be stuck on the South side with man or North where we are less likely to be troubled?

I think they simply decided to move North for practical reasons.Perhaps their greensers foresaw the future Andal invasion.

So the First Men and the COTF may have co-operated in the erection of the wall,but for different motives.

The Pact that existed may have held in a general sense,but not in a day to day reality.As in the way Civil Rights legislation and anti-racism laws have not eliminated all racism in our world.

[Elaena Targaryen]

Hello heretics! Long time no see :) (I'm Eira with a new name and cute Cthulhu avatar)

Hello Eaeron I! It's nice to see you and I have missed your more...let's say exquisite style...I always enjoy your take on things!

Very good catch on the Sidhe! I love the connections to the myths, and now we even got one confirmed. But that was about how the Others look, and not what they really are. It could be that the Others are very similar to that myth, but that is not necessarily so.

While I don't think Martin is doing a perfect comparison between the Others and the Sidhe I do think he might use more than appearances here, and I'm sure he will put his unusual amazing take on his creation. I did notice the Sidhe comparison was given to an artist for the purpose of visually bringing the Others to life and I wondered how much included behaivor. If someone says "like the Sidhe" do you get a mental image of what they are supposed to look like or do you think of the stories told about things they have done or what they are? This is the first time, I believe, that I have heard of them so I do not have a visual mental image but I now have their stories, I was disapointed there was not any physical description on the wiki. All of that being said I think it could be more than apearances.

I also read the comic novel and found the part with the exchange between the artist and GRRM most intriguing. One note on that, the artist had the Others looking more "robotic"[ETA: in his preliminary sketches] and that was answered by GRRM in that they were not dead and the rest that has already been quoted. My interpretation of that was that they were not zombies, dead men walking like the wights, and should look like living creatures. They looked very ethereal, like they don't answer to the laws of nature.

The thing is that I doubt they are alive by human standards, yes they are not zombies, but are they alive?

On whether they are "alive" or not one word the artist used when thinking of how to draw the Others struck me...numinous; ( Having a strong religious or spiritual quality; indicating or suggesting the presence of a divinity. ) Could the Others be a deity? I like the magical, spirtitual and ethereal qualities and wonder if it could be even more. To get really crackpot at one moment I wondered if they could be the Old Gods just trying to analyse the new info better. I did arrive at some more questions; could they be divine, if they are some kind of deity or on that level with the "otherworld" connections are they "alive" in the way we use the word, can a different supernatural race that might be imortal be considered alive or can they die in the way we think, and so on... I really need to read more on numinous creatures!

Did anyone bring up Jaime's dream of the Kingsguard and Rhaegar in this thread? I thought the description of their ghosts was very interesting, and very much like the Others in the comic novel. I see dead Rheagar with white hair flowing in the air just like the Others in the comic.

Yes me too! Inparticular the drawing by Jon Picacio, I could see that being similar to the way Rhaegar was described. In Jaime's dream it was all dead people looking similar to this right? I need to read that again! Is this a connection to the "otherworld"? Now I wonder how much the weirwoods can be similar to the "tree of life" and connected to the spirtits!

I'm still on the idea that the white mists are ghosts, since men are the ones buried in the burrows of the First Men. And a spirit that lives on is not really dead, it's just the flesh that is dead.

I think this is possible because spirits and ghosts are mentioned several times ecspecially in the North and with different groups. There have been casual comments that made me believe they think these things are real in their world. I also think this shows Martin has done horror before.

But I like the idea of the faeries too, that they come from some other dimension present in the same world. From beyond the curtain of light perhaps?

That just fit's less well with the Red priests doings, resurrecting people and striving for eternal life, but not at all symmetrical and equal to what the Ice faction is doing... If the Others are faery folk, could the Red Priests be trying to approximate their ways? Humans copying the way to eternal life?

When the Other takes Craster's son in the show, could he be giving him a kiss? Equivalent and opposite of the kiss of life maybe?

I like this direction but I have not thought about all of it yet. It's very interesting with the different dimension and maybe the red priests are aware. I like the "kiss" idea as well!

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

Also like the idea that Crasters sons receive the opposite to the "kiss" that the Red Lot use to "reclaim" people.

Perhaps Craster's sons are being taken and raised on some Land of Always Winter WW-owned & operated human stud farm. Maybe the WhiteWalkers are hive/colony creatures, taking males back to their Heart of Winter Queen to breed and create more White Walkers. Maybe the "corpse wife" from NightKing was herself a WhiteWalker Queen (The Queen, perhaps? Do we know what happened to the corpse wife?)

Bored, thought I'd fire a few shots into the dark. Something's bound to hit the target eventually, right?

[Black Crow]

As to the event that made the old races flee North of the Wall,instead of stories,perhaps it was an event.....

.....the building of the Wall.And that's even if the singers and the giants helped the mythical Bran to build it.

There is an extant pact between the Old Races and the FM at the end of the Long Night and a decision is made to build a wall to exclude the evil forces of Winter from the realms of men.

But this leaves the singers et al with a decision.Do we want to be stuck on the South side with man or North where we are less likely to be troubled?

I think they simply decided to move North for practical reasons.Perhaps their greensers foresaw the future Andal invasion.

Again that's explicitly contradicted both by Maester Luwin who tells Bran how the Pact endured until the Andals came and by the stories of the slaughter of the Children by the Andals which triggered that flight. The point being that their flight from the kingdoms below the Neck is therefore explicable, but their flight from the North as well implies a breaking of the Pact.

[Black Crow]

When the Other takes Craster's son in the show, could he be giving him a kiss? Equivalent and opposite of the kiss of life maybe?

Welcome back!

I'd tend to go with this one. Yes, I've now managed to "freeze" on the kiss, but the context remains the same. The Other/Sidhe picks up the babe, cradling him, stills his crying with an apparent kiss, and then carries on cradling it. As I said right after this episode if he was snacking on the infant I'd expect to see it carried differently. If there's an actual kiss involved in this scene I'd say its much more likely that the Sidhe is putting the cold inside him, just as Adara had cold inside her.