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[Book Spoilers] EP 207 Discussion

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My only complaint about the series is how radically it has changed my perception of this forum and the members on it. I can't believe how many 'experts' are complaining about things that were explained right on the show. "Wahh, wahh, Catelyn has no reason to free Jaime without hearing of Bran and Rickon." Did you people even watch the episode?

Get the definition of adaptation tattooed on the back of your hands so you can read it while you type.

Adaptation: the process in which a tv-show based on a series of books turns into something utterly unreckognizable, where change is made for the sake of change alone, where the opportunity to show nude women is never missed and where the characters involved end up a complete 180 from what they were like in the original text

Is that about right?

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Unless Roose fathered this version of Dagsay when he was 10 (and that's being generous with the age difference), then it's stupid.

You can voice whatever you want. That's the joy of the internet.

And yet, you and people like you voicing how stupid you think it is that people would bitch about minor plot points (are you new to the internet?) ... well, those are the posts that seem whiny and childish and unnecessary. Bitching about minor plot points is still talking about the show.

Bitching about people bitching is just being a bitch.

What bothers me is that people are shocked that an adaptation of a book made changes from the source material. I don't care about people talking about it, but the people who are acting apalled or shocked over it is a bit much.

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I still haven´t seen anyone who wants a straight adaptation along the lines of "well they really should hire 200.000 extras for the Battle of the Blackwater otherwise that episode will suck". What most "purists" seem to be saying is that there are some changes that they don´t enjoy for whatever reasons. Some people here seem to like the majority of the changes made, some others seem to dislike most of them. Each opinion is equally valid

That's not the impression I get when I read comments like "Did anything in this episode actually happen in the book?!?". That, to me, says that the person wants things to mimic the book even at the cost of a slow and boring plot. If they didn't do something with Dany and Jon differently than what happened in the books, they might as well just cut them entirely. The books are amazing. WAY better than the show. With that said, a lot of the things in the books just do not work in a TV series where time is not unlimited. And even if this season was 20 episodes, they still couldn't show 10 scenes with John doing little more than marching through the snow. People would stop watching. I even saw one person say they've given up on the show thanks to the changes.... really? Not one single change has changed anything significant at this point. I'd understand if they killed off a main character, like Tyrion or something, but people complaining because Dany's Handmaidens died? What did they do in the books that was so important? It's things like that that people are going overboard about. I can't think of one change that has significantly changed the course of the series. Please enlighten me if I missed it.

Edited by Versiroth

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I just had a thought - who is Karstark going to kill now?

he was in a perfect position to kill Alton (being a distant relative of the Lannisters) but that's out the window.

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The lack of Tyron's chain is disconcerting. I thought it was a really nice culmination of his story in CoK, showing that his mind really was his greatest weapon. Part of its impact was the lead-up to the chain's reveal, so I'm thinking there's probably no way they'll include it this season. CGI-ing a bunch of burning ship-hulks piled against a chain and being pushed by a river's current is probably a little bit outside the budgetary scope of this adaptation.

Also, there's no way that Dagmer *is* Ramsay ... that barely makes sense ... but he sure is playing Ramsay's devil-on-Theon's-shoulder role thus far this season. He seems to be able to control him by giving him an expression that says "That's not Ironborn tough!"

I just had a thought - who is Karstark going to kill now?

he was in a perfect position to kill Alton (being a distant relative of the Lannisters) but that's out the window.

I'm guessing they'll drop that little thread. They've had to rush the Rob's camp story a little bit (case in point, Jaime being sprung now) and I suspect they included Karstark as both an impetus for freeing the Kingslayer and as a bit of a nod to book-readers.

Edited by Mummer's wind

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Adaptation: the process in which a tv-show based on a series of books turns into something utterly unreckognizable, where change is made for the sake of change alone, where the opportunity to show nude women is never missed and where the characters involved end up a complete 180 from what they were like in the original text

Is that about right?

Ok, now with the hyperbole? First, the changes are made for time and also to add spice to some of the slower stories. And what character is a complete 180? Jaime? The same Jaime that pushed a small boy out of a window hoping that he'd die? Also.. nudity....? Did you read the books? Martin was way more graphic than the show seems to be.

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My only complaint about the series is how radically it has changed my perception of this forum and the members on it. I can't believe how many 'experts' are complaining about things that were explained right on the show. "Wahh, wahh, Catelyn has no reason to free Jaime without hearing of Bran and Rickon." Did you people even watch the episode?

Get the definition of adaptation tattooed on the back of your hands so you can read it while you type.

Yes, having Catelyn freeing Jaime because Karstark is going to kill him makes sense. It just strips her of any agency she ever had, turning an active decision she made on her own into a passive reaction to someone else's plan. I could have accepted it if it had been a one time thing, but the trend since season 2 has been to take every idea Cat ever had in the books and to give it to someone else (usually a male character). As such you have Robb advising her to go to Renly, Tyrion and LF convincing her to release Jaime and Brienne commandeering their escape from Renly's tent and Renly's camp. All of those things should have come from Cat. Instead she spends half her scenes crying "I should be in Winterfell with my babies !!".

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I can't think of one change that has significantly changed the course of the series. Please enlighten me if I missed it.

Here are some of the changes that I´ve had issues with, although we might disagree on their relative importance

Jaime killing his cousin, turning him from a man whos two really bad deeds could be justified into a sociopath, thus making redemption seem unlikely

Robb falling in love with Talisa and flaunting it in front of all of his bannermen, changing alot of things about the Red Wedding

Now it seems that Cat will release Jaime without getting the news of Bran and Rickon, changing alot of things about her decisions

Cersei complaining to Tyrion about what a crazy nutbag Joffrey really is, so why all the drama when they offed him at the Purple Wedding

I could list more but I´ve already done so in the threads about the earlier episodes

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I absolutely love the television series because it is great television. Folks who have not read the series are in for a treat if they decide to pick it up. They have no idea how different the adaptation is from the book's narrative. I have no problem with that. However, there are several adaptations that disappoint me that were unnecessarily left out or changed:

  1. Ser Roderick could have brought in Reek before Theon stole Winterfell, so it won't be necessary to introduce him in a hokey way;
  2. Bran and Rickon should be in the Crypts;
  3. The Reeds should be with Bran;
  4. Where is Varys and Tyrion's unique relationship in the KL arc;
  5. The Tower of Joy should have been introduced in Ned's vision last season;
  6. Jon should be with the Half-Hand trying to double back from pursuit after letting Ygritte go;
  7. It should have been clear that Jon killed Orell;
  8. Jon should have found the dragonglass and broken horn at the foot of the Fist of First Men; and
  9. Amory Lorch should have been fed to a bear by Vargo Hoat instead of getting killed by Jaqen H'ghar.

Now, I will admit that I love the Tywin/Arya arc and the Dany/Qarth arc. Good changes that make sense for TV. I also love or at least approve of the added scenes and using Littlefinger as vehicle to connect the story arcs.

All in all, this is a smashingly good show. I just don't see why such important aspects of the narrative have been omitted. It leaves them little room to connect all the dots once you get to ADWD and beyond.

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Ok, now with the hyperbole? First, the changes are made for time and also to add spice to some of the slower stories. And what character is a complete 180? Jaime? The same Jaime that pushed a small boy out of a window hoping that he'd die? Also.. nudity....? Did you read the books? Martin was way more graphic than the show seems to be.

I had to respond to the "adaptation-tatoo" poster with some hyperbole lol, don´t take it too serious

I´ve read the books, though I must have missed the lesbian sex scenes at LF´s place, the scene where Osha fucks Theon, the scene where Joffrey has the hookers beat eachother and many others. T&A that makes sense = good, T&A for the sake of more T&A = bad

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Cersei complaining to Tyrion about what a crazy nutbag Joffrey really is, so why all the drama when they offed him at the Purple Wedding

Cersei did also mention that the only people in the world she loved were her children and that mothers don't have a choice.

Edited by Mummer's wind

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Jaime killing his cousin doesn't make sense and it wasn't necessary. Adaptation or not, he didn't have to kill the boy, he could have just beat him bloody and then strangled the Stark.

The scenes in Qarth threw me for a loop. I'm still not sure if they even happened or not. I kept thinking Dany was dreaming or already in the House of Undying. Maybe there will be a twist ending to the season and we will learn Dany has been in the House of Undying for the past few episodes. It will explain why her people were killed, her paranoia and why Ser Jorah wasn't around... Either way, I didn't see the coupe coming. I was enjoying Dany's power struggle with the merchants.

I liked all of the history given in the episode. It's a bit heavy on exposition but there's really no other way to convey the information to viewers without a lot of speeches.

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Name me an adaptation that 100% follows the source material and I will name you a liar.

And I'll say this again - name a poster that has said they require a 100% adaption. Because different posters disagree about different points does not mean that anyone requires or expects a 100% verbatim TV show.

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Winterfell: The walnuts are there as a plot devise for the audience only. Dagmar's idea was to pull a bait and switch, which is actually what happens. The walnuts are there simply to fool the audience into thinking the boys are the one's killed. Bran, Rickon, Osha and Hodor will likely never return to Winterfell. You won't see the scene with master Luwen either. It's just not important to the TV show that he knows the boys lived, since he's about to die anyway. All that's left is likely Yara showing up to tell Theon he's screwed and then Ramsey sacking Winterfell (making it seem as though Theon is killed, I'm sure).

I'm pretty sure they'll show Maester Luwin's death. He's had a lot of screen-time during the past two episodes - they even added several scenes for him over the course of the two seasons - they won't pass up such a great opportunity for drama when he dies. They've shown every named characters death on screen so far, even when the characters aren't supposed to die/be maimed (Mago, Irri, Rakharo, Marillion etc.), it would make no sense for them not to show Luwin's as well.

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Did I misunderstand? Did it say only 2 more episodes left?

Is it possible that the season finale will be a double-episode lasting 2 hours?

This would mean there are two more 'broadcasts', yet three more 'episodes'...

Just a thought!

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And even if this season was 20 episodes, they still couldn't show 10 scenes with John doing little more than marching through the snow. I can't think of one change that has significantly changed the course of the series. Please enlighten me if I missed it.

well, they changed it to many scenes of jon marching through the snow. in the book, jon and halfhand were being chased by wildlings, coming up with different strategies to elude them. what the show gave us instead was jon wlaking through the snow with ygritte

i think most complaints are not about stuff being changed. its about stuff that doesnt work. and really a lot stuff thats new hasnt come together well. if you really want me to complain about a show ask me about the walking dead, and I've never read the source material there.

I know they can't follow it exactly. I don't even want them too. I was hoping for many new scenes of Robb in the West(though those have been a disappointment) but I do expect scenes that are well thought out and executed.

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