Having children ruins everything

[Rockroi]

I don't like this topic for the very real reason that it reduces parenting to a cliche ("Its the toughest job in the world but so, so worth it"), an insult ("Its hard to describe it to someone who does not have kids..." god I hate those fucking people) or a crazy jumble of inherent contradictions that make the speaker sound mildly crazy ("SHUT UP AND EAT YOUR FUCKING FRENCH FRIES" - Louis C.K.).

Being a parent is one gigantic anxiety disorder. You love your children (and let me stress this: I LOVE my daughters; its your kids I am not terribly fond of), you look out for them, you help them, care for them...

... and you worry, worry, worry for them. And by "for them" I mean you worry about the epic cluster-fuck you are burdening them with in the form of your own horrible parenting, your own insecurities and your own desperate and at times piecemeal attempts to create cohesive parenting. All the while, you are on the look out for YOUR parents lurking under your voice, in your eye-rolls and in your thought patterns. You also don't want others to see how you parent out of fear that SOMEBODY ELSE will tell YOU how to raise YOUR kids- a terrible contradiction because we all wish WE were better at it but would never condone somebody else TELLING us how to be so.

Its work, its scary, it requires more time than you have, more patience, less anger, less selfishness, and a ton of cooperation (get a good spouse, and I am not even joking). All in all parenting is a massive undertaking...

But... but ... but...

That's the thing: THERE IS NO "BUT", at least for me.

Its NOT "Parenting is really hard, but its really rewarding."

Its more like an "And."

Parenting is really hard and really rewarding. The whole foundation of the parenting ethos is that there are "good moments and bad moments" and that is an oversimplification and in some ways a lie. There are no "moments"; there is just "time. Its one long road of being in this relationship- you as the giver; the child as the receiver and then nurturing that "positive feedback loop" that will, hopefully, naturally develop. You function as a dedicated sentinel for your child against ignorance, bad behavior, sadness and danger, while simultaneously trying to allow in the good, the intelligent, the true, the beautiful and the right. That watch never goes away; it does not have "ups and downs" it just is; it only gradually lessens over time.

Which is the ultimately depressing (and of course also rewarding) thing of parenting: its the only relationship that, if properly done, is designed to lessen over time. Your child does not need you as much today as they did yesterday and will need you even less tomorrow. And one day they will tell you that to your face. While yelling.

And the only solace you will get is that when she DOES tell you to your face what a terrible parent you were and that she is not a child anymore, you can smile that she did so in an articulate and authoritative tone that you taught her.

Being a parent is one of humility and pride; of strength and unbearable weakness; of trust and grave suspicion. And and and and ...

My only message (besides the fact that I cannot stomach when people talk "for" or "against" parenting like its some sort of ballot issue) is that I am petrified of the effect I will have on my child. And amazed at it all at once. That's being a parent: its being scared and doing it anyway, bumbling along the way, but knowing that perfection is a myth, satisfaction temporary and love its own reward.

[Minaku]

Yeah, I'm thinking your situation and my situation are probably just very different, unless one of your parents, like my Mother and the author, also has a personality disorder.

Yeah, it's tough to parse that one out for me. What I mean is the inability to know that one is a narcissist is, in my understanding, part of being a narcissist, so it would only be through some kind of introspective process that I cannot comprehend that a person could get to that kind of understanding of themselves, seems like.

This is, IMO, one of the hardest things in life that we grapple with as humans.

On the subject of children and work, I got curious and read that board Mina was talking about and was appalled at the number of people posting who are constantly hit by their children. One woman said her four year old daughter ran over and grabbed and twisted both her breasts when she wouldn't let her play with the toy she wanted. Stories similar to this were not uncommon - children beating their infant siblings, children abusing animals, etc. I mean, Jesus Christ!!! WTF do you do if you end up with that? Tell me that's not common!

I should say that children - especially young ones, and even older ones up to middle school - have not been completely socially conditioned. No one is born knowing you shouldn't kill and eat a baby. So abuse of younger siblings or animals can be common because honestly, kids are little savages and it takes a lot of training to turn them into functioning members of society. My child is very gentle and even he sometimes hits the cats or smushes them, which results in a swift punishment (it's the one instance where I allow myself to swat my child, because as a 2 year old he has no concept of how he's hurting the animal).

I told a student of mine a story of how a "friend" almost drowned me as a child. He laughed at it. I told him it wasn't funny. And he's almost 10.

As a parent you have to correct that behavior very early and be on guard knowing that your kid will hurt another very easily.

[Kalbear]

On the subject of children and work, I got curious and read that board Mina was talking about and was appalled at the number of people posting who are constantly hit by their children. One woman said her four year old daughter ran over and grabbed and twisted both her breasts when she wouldn't let her play with the toy she wanted. Stories similar to this were not uncommon - children beating their infant siblings, children abusing animals, etc. I mean, Jesus Christ!!! WTF do you do if you end up with that? Tell me that's not common!

It's pretty common. I don't know about 'abusing' animals, but kids often grab and hit animals that are pissing them off. This is why you rate dogs on how 'kid friendly' they are. That rating isn't a rating of whether or not a dog is randomly going to beat the fuck out of a kid; that rating is a measure of how patient a dog is while a kid is wailing on them or pulling their fur.

Some kids are better than others in this regard, but I've yet to meet a kid that doesn't hit at some level.

It's hard dealing with it too. We do the timeout system, but it's not perfect. The important thing we've found with Alaric is to make sure that he doesn't get away with it - he has to say sorry, he has to acknowledge that it's bad, and sometimes he has to take a time out to chill out some.

But yes, children are violent. Having children makes you instantly aware that we are, at our core, animals.

[Kalbear]

Also, I think I've said it before, but it bears repeating here: you have not known fear until you are a parent.

[Guest Raidne]

But yes, children are violent. Having children makes you instantly aware that we are, at our core, animals.

Yep, that's what I was wondering. Thanks to you and Mina for your candid answers.

[Eponine]

Ep, that you are considering having kids is the most shocking thing I have heard all year and that is saying something.

Thank you?

My biological clock is still broken - that is, I didn't get an uncontrollable craving for a baby and decide to make it happen.

How about this? A friend of mine (the one with the great kid I was talking about earlier, by the way) said that the time you'll know that you're really ready to have kids is when you find out you're pregnant and can't get an abortion.

But this. At every point in my life up until now, my gut response to the possibility of being pregnant has been - get me to the clinic NOW. But at some point in the last few months, I came to the realization that if I found out that I was pregnant right now, I wouldn't get an abortion. This was not a realization met with unambiguous excitement - I'd still be like "oh shit shit shit, wtf" and not "yay, I'm going to have an adorable baby" - but the end result would be acceptance that raising the resulting child as best I could would be the best decision for me at this time.

This was reinforced by the boyfriend person, who, when I raised the question with him, told me that while it would be unfortunate timing, he would be all in for parenting.

Well... if having an unplanned pregnancy would result in getting married and raising a child, it didn't seem rational for a planned pregnancy to be a relationship deal breaker. I haven't made any irreversible decisions, but the pros seem to outweigh the cons.

***

ETA: There is no doubt in my mind that my parents love me and want what is best for me and have at every point in my life. I believe they tried to raise me as best they knew how. Yet as an adult, I have NONE of the cliche/common feeling that immature teenage me was ignorant of how wise my parents really were and the older I got the more I saw they were right. I still think my parents fucked me up good by being dead fucking wrong. The one situation I don't know how I'd get through is if my kid grew up to be a Bible thumper who believed I was going to hell.

[Rockroi]

As far as children being violent I do not think this is true at all. Children flail and grope etc, but that's not an act of violence as much as it is the limitations of a cognitive immature creature attempting to interface with other objects through a physical mechanism (its body) that it does not fully understand. Thus, a child is not really trying to strike another animal, but rather the child is trying to "touch" the other animal and does not really know how to do it.

[Minaku]

Their explorations often end poorly. Rowan wants to love our cats, but it's too much love, so we have to tell him constantly to be gentle and to pet lightly. No smushing, no kicking, no hitting, no swatting, but if he does anything to the cats he gets it right back just so he understands what he's been doing to them. Despite all our cautions we do still get incidents of a cat scrambling to get away or pitiful meowing. When asked why, he just shrugs. This is a common thing and it needs to be trained out of children. They do not understand that their actions can hurt others. I guess children are just little sociopaths. They are curious, but there is no consideration to temper that curiosity.

[Elder Sister]

Also, I think I've said it before, but it bears repeating here: you have not known fear until you are a parent.

Oh, my Lord; this is so true. Heart in the throat, gut-wrenching, agonizing, fear.

It gets better when they outgrow the suicidal tendencies of adolescence, but it never goes away entirely.

[Lord O' Bones]

And "never knowing fear until you're a parent?" Ah, no. I'm sure that any number of people have known life or death situations without having first given birth. Sure, there might be additional anxiety over one's children, and maybe some fear, at times...but it's a little overblown, IMO, to say that someone without kids will never know the depth of fear.

I wanted to take issue with that myself, but you know; no kids. Good to see that my disbelief isn't entirely crazy.

ETA: and the cross posting gets better and better...

[Newsun]

the suicidal tendencies of adolescence

Teehee

[Kalbear]

Sorry, Chataya, for being too generic and literal. Most first world people will not know fear until they are parents.

Similarly, kids are violent is true in general. Yes, there are plenty of kids who aren't. I'm sure. Maybe. I've not actually met them, but I'm sure they exist. I've never seen a kid who gets hit not want to hit back or not hit back. I've not seen a kid who gets clawed by a cat not try to hit that cat. But I'm sure they can be trained to do so. If Chataya trained her child very carefully never to hit, well, that's fine - but that's like saying that not all dogs poop inside a house because you can train them to not poop in the house.

Note that I'm not talking about a 9 month old grabbing the fur of a dog. I'm talking about a kid who knows that they should not hit a cat hitting a cat because that cat pissed them off or clawed or bit them. It's theoretically possible that this is learned behavior, but if so it's very easy to learn.

[Guest Raidne]

I was really talking about children hitting people, animals, etc., not in retribution but because they simply felt like it, or because the person wouldn't let them play with the toy they wanted.

ETA: Also, Mina, I've thought over your original question some more and remembered that when I was in law school I watched mad amounts of American Idol and Law and Order and read nothing that I remember for pleasure except for the ASOIAF series, and that not until my second year. Reading this thread should make it clear that parenting well requires at least as much constant brain usage, likely about twice as much, I think, as being in law school or something like that. So I'm solidly on the "your brain capacity is maxed out with other stuff" side of the fence on that issue.

[Kalbear]

Ah, that. Yeah, that differs from kid to kid and training to training, but I'll stand by the notion that most kids want to do that by default and will need some training to go out of it. It's also a socialization thing; if you don't socialize with kids that hit, they won't hit. if you do, they almost certainly will.

[Cadiva]

Ah, that. Yeah, that differs from kid to kid and training to training, but I'll stand by the notion that most kids want to do that by default and will need some training to go out of it. It's also a socialization thing; if you don't socialize with kids that hit, they won't hit. if you do, they almost certainly will.

My son's never been a hitter, even when another child hits him it's not his instinctive reaction to return the favour. He's now four, has been going to mother and baby groups since birth and to pre-school nursery since he was three and in all that time we have only twice been told that he's done something "wrong", once when he snatched a toy away from another child and once when him and another kid were throwing plastic pans at each other.

Neither me or his father have specifically taught him that hitting is bad, he's simply never automatically done it. Unlike my younger (by 19 months) brother and I, who used to physically fight like cat and dog and have the scars to prove it.

My son is, however, an only child (at the moment) so he has no-one to compete with for attention at home (other than our daily working/computer environment) which may make a difference. He's also only got one cousin who is six and who he only sees every fortnight due to her parents being divorced and my brother only having her every other weekend as she lives a good 100 odd miles away which, again, may be a factor. However, none of the kids that he's grown up with of his own age that we met at ante-natal classes are hitters either, although there are children at his pre-school who do hit, so that may also be a factor. One of them was a biter (as was my brother until he got a taste of his own medicine) but she was definitely trained out of that through discipline and good parenting.

[mouse]

My purely anecdotal evidence is that my 2 1/2 year old has never tried to hit the baby. However, she has asked whether she may hit the baby. ("Hit Baby K--?" "No, no hitting K--." "Hit Mama?" "No, no hitting Mama." "Hit the couch?" "Yes, you can hit the couch." "HIT!!!")

As for animals, it has only been through numerous readings of the book "Tails Are Not For Pulling" and a few instances of time out that the message of being gentle has gotten through. And while she won't hit the dog, she delights in freaking the dog out (by, e.g., chasing her with a balloon or riding her plastic kiddie car right at her). She just doesn't get, yet, that the dog has feelings too. She just sees this reaction, and it amuses her.

[TerraPrime]

Empathy doesn't develop, if I recall my developmental psych, around 2.5 years, and then it takes a while to develop enough empathy to modify one's own behavior.

[Talleyrand]

Ah me and my 3 brothers were pretty shitey kids so I can probably agree with the title. Not in a shouty/crying or intrusive way or anything like that just at any given moment there were probably 2/3 fights or arguments going at any moment between us.

[Queen Regent]

I think it does get worse after you have a 2nd child... at least it seems that way for me. It feels like my brain is on vacation, it just doesn't function half the time anymore!

[Rockroi]

Similarly, kids are violent is true in general. Yes, there are plenty of kids who aren't. I'm sure. Maybe. I've not actually met them, but I'm sure they exist. I've never seen a kid who gets hit not want to hit back or not hit back.But I'm sure they can be trained to do so. If Chataya trained her child very carefully never to hit, well, that's fine - but that's like saying that not all dogs poop inside a house because you can train them to not poop in the house.

Okay now that I understand you better I disagree completely. I have met many children who never hit even when they have been struck. One is actually sleeping right now in a room not 20 feet from me. I actually do not think children are violent animals. Now, its completely possible that my daughter is the exception to the rule but I think that highly unlikley that I would just so happen to parent the one child who does not act in this manner.

Note that I'm not talking about a 9 month old grabbing the fur of a dog. I'm talking about a kid who knows that they should not hit a cat hitting a cat because that cat pissed them off or clawed or bit them. It's theoretically possible that this is learned behavior, but if so it's very easy to learn. I've not seen a kid who gets clawed by a cat not try to hit that cat.

If a cat clawed my oldest daughter she would start crying, not strike the cat back.

My daughter has also never struck or even attempted to strike our cat or any animal she has been in contact with. And again, I can really only speak for my children (one is actually only 15 months old so ...); I don't spend every waking moment around other people's children so I cannot speak to them. All I can say is that watching my two children I think that my girls are 1) nothing special in terms of cognitive development or empathy understanding etc; they are just two little girls and 2) that their behavior can be described as anything but violent is not one of them (though as stated they could be rough-housers at times).

I just think that this is an overstatement.