Having children ruins everything

[Greywolf2375]

I'm coming to this a bit late (I'm finally home and have access to a real computer) but I've got a thing or two to say about the Waldman article. Enough with the Mommy Guilt! We're guilty because we don't love them the right way, we're guilty because we don't feed them the right way, we're guilty because we send them to day care and summer camp so we can work, we're guilty because we don't work and therefore are not strong role models for our daughters, we spend too much on them and spoil them, we don't spend enough on them and deprive them. It's endless, and it needs to stop.

No parent (male or female) on this board should feel guilty about any feelings they have towards their offspring. It is ok to crave adult converstation. That is not the same as saying your children are not enough. So what if someone wants to hire a babysitter every Thursday night so he can go play poker with the guys. Who cares if you send your kids to grandma so you and your spouse can have a lovely adult vacation. You fed your kid formula? Why not? It's not poison.

Are our children fed, clothed, protecteded and nurtured? I'd be willing to bet they are, and that is enough. That is love.

Like-d it but can't like it enough.

Especially the daycare/summer camp guilt. holy poop.

[Guest Raidne]

Yeah, I get you and agree with all your points, but I do think a person might feel guilty about publishing this paragraph in the NY Times:

What if, God forbid, someone were to snatch one of my children? God forbid. I imagine what it would feel like to lose one or even all of them. I imagine myself consumed, destroyed by the pain. And yet, in these imaginings, there is always a future beyond the child's death. Because if I were to lose one of my children, God forbid, even if I lost all my children, God forbid, I would still have him, my husband.

I don't think it's wrong to think that, necessarily, but she probably didn't need to publish that particular part for posterity for the sake of her children's feelings. Nobody wants to know that their parent has imagined how they would still have a life after they were abducted and killed.

[willo the wisps]

I sure do. I think it went something like this:

<bing bong> Minaku has entered the chatroom

chat: hey mina!

Mina: hi! what's up?

chat: oh you know, dick jokes and talking about cats; the usual. What's up with you?

Mina: not much - hang on a sec

chat:?

Mina: sorry; contraction. you were saying?

chat: wait wut

Mina: oh, I'm in labor, but it's really early so I'm just killing some time until I have to wake the boy up to take me to the hospital - wait, hang on a sec

chat:...

...

...

...

Mina: damn, that was aggravating. Anyway, dick jokes and cats huh?

chat: er, yeah. And we will totally pretend this this is perfectly normal and not badass in anyway until you leave

Damn I'm mad I missed that. That sounds about right for Minaku.

[willo the wisps]

I'm coming to this a bit late (I'm finally home and have access to a real computer) but I've got a thing or two to say about the Waldman article. Enough with the Mommy Guilt! We're guilty because we don't love them the right way, we're guilty because we don't feed them the right way, we're guilty because we send them to day care and summer camp so we can work, we're guilty because we don't work and therefore are not strong role models for our daughters, we spend too much on them and spoil them, we don't spend enough on them and deprive them. It's endless, and it needs to stop.

No parent (male or female) on this board should feel guilty about any feelings they have towards their offspring. It is ok to crave adult converstation. That is not the same as saying your children are not enough. So what if someone wants to hire a babysitter every Thursday night so he can go play poker with the guys. Who cares if you send your kids to grandma so you and your spouse can have a lovely adult vacation. You fed your kid formula? Why not? It's not poison.

Are our children fed, clothed, protecteded and nurtured? I'd be willing to bet they are, and that is enough. That is love.

And with that, our discussion ends.

Take care everybody.

[Guest Raidne]

Hi willo!!!

I was talking to a friend of mine once and she said "God I'm so hung over I really thought I was going to puke on the baby." Taken as a stand-alone sentence, I guess that seems pretty untoward, but honestly who gives a fuck? It was her night out the night before, her husband was home with the baby, etc.

[Greywolf2375]

Yeah, I get you and agree with all your points, but I do think a person might feel guilty about publishing this paragraph in the NY Times:

I don't think it's wrong to think that, necessarily, but she probably didn't need to publish that particular part for posterity for the sake of her children's feelings. Nobody wants to know that their parent has imagined how they would still have a life after they were abducted and killed.

I've said it in a couple other places, I've all ready had the worst nightmares ever, that my son died. I'm afraid something could happen to my wife, I'm terrified something could happen to my son.

Edit: It's not wrong to think that, in some ways your life does have to go on if something tragic does happen. But yeah, publishing it...that I wouldn't do. And god forbid if I ever got my hands on the person that injured my child like that.

[Muttering Bill]

I don't think there's necessarily a me-me-me generation. There are me-me-me type of selfish jerks in every generation.

Whether that person qualifies is a whole other argument. I think it all comes down to whether, for you personally, the rewards are worth all the hard work. There were times when I hated, I mean fucking hated my daughter - especially between the years of 2.5 and 4. I mean, I loathed that kid. I would have other parents tell me how well behaved she was and how smart and sweet and what a gem and all that bullshit and I'd look at them incredulously, like, are you fucking kidding me? This kid is the devil!

But I knew that wasn't true, because she was really well behaved for her age, especially compared to my nephews who were - and are - real assholes.

And yet, despite that loathing when she was being a stubborn brat, it would all melt away with a well-timed hug and an excited "Daddy!" (or Da-eeeeeeeeee! as she said it til about 4.5) when I walked through the door after work. Or any number of things that would make the hours of tantrums or non-listening or strong-willed balking at basic things (you'd think taking her to the bathroom to brush her teeth was like sending her to the electric chair). For a few moments, even if it was just seconds, you get that feeling of joy and contentment that comes from knowing maybe you are doing it right after all. Even if 23 hours of the day are full of misery, that 1 hour of joy makes it worth it. Cliche, but true.

I'm complete agreement here. My first daughter is the same way. Up until she was 4 I could have sworn she hated me. Even still, I think she only came around because of her sister; that she now has competition. It's very easy just to give up, especially when you aren't getting those little moments of appreciation. And many times I'd sworn to myself that I had given up. But that girl is a manipulative genius, and always manages to win me over again. And always in the simplest ways, as you've said.

Yeah, I get you and agree with all your points, but I do think a person might feel guilty about publishing this paragraph in the NY Times: I don't think it's wrong to think that, necessarily, but she probably didn't need to publish that particular part for posterity for the sake of her children's feelings. Nobody wants to know that their parent has imagined how they would still have a life after they were abducted and killed.

It is, perhaps, too candid for public admission. But it's completely normal to consider what one would do if something like that were to happen. And there is no fault in realizing that one would, with difficuly, still carry on. That one could even still manage to have relatively happy life after.

She raises some good points, but they seem to be getting lost under the outrage over her more extreme statements. Women, or at least some of them, tend to focus all of their attention on their child/children, and lose track of themselves.

I can only attest to the changes of my own gf in the matter really. Nevermind me, she can't think of herself for even a moment. Every thing revolves around the kids. And that's good to an extent. They're wonderful and important and deserve the attention and adoration. But I don't think that sort of extreme focus is healthy. It's not being selfish to say "I want -----." Whether that want is some sort of new trinket, or just some time to yourself. I regularly take those things myself, and am usually accused of being selfish or lazy, or it's insinuated that I don't love the girls as much. Which is entirely untrue. They are a part of me, but they are not all of me. I encourage the gf to do those things for herself, but she's just no longer capable.

If the most erotic form of foreplay to a mother of a small child is, as I've heard some women claim, loading the dishwasher or sweeping the floor, then he's a master of titillation.

LIES!!!

[Greg]

Actually, that latter statement is not completely true. For some odd reason, some parents like to tell new parents that babies are "easy" and it only gets harder after that. And really, that's complete bullshit. You generally get different issues as they get older, but the 24 hour attention thing a baby needs goes away, and in terms of getting your life back, it generally gets much easier as you go along. Not sure why people say that other than to build up their own ego that they still have it "tough".

I seem to be in a different phase of child rearing than most of the posters here. My boys are now 11, 16, 18(going to college in the fall) and 20 (in college living at home). We are well out of the constant vigilance phase and mightily grateful for it. Cathy and I are at a point where we can have a standing Saturday lunch date, can both work late without the world ending, and on my rare nights off we can take a walk or sit in the back yard and drink a beer, hold hands, and read. Most of all, those days, from Aug 1992-to about Aug 2001, when I rarely got a full nights uninterrupted sleep are long past. Very nice:).

But...

When parents of older kids tell you baby problems are easier, well..they are. Unless you are presented, God forbid, with a horrible health problem, the solutions to most infant to school age kid difficulties are pretty easy to solve. Execution of the solutions might be exhausting (okay hon, I'll handle the colicky baby, you handle the toddler who WON'T go to sleep), but they tend to be simple.

Teen and YA problems are entirely another matter. After a pretty easy 5-7 years (5-12 is nice) You go from "Pleeeeeaaaase go to sleep", "Good heavens now I know what the doctor means by explosive bowel movements", and "Stop trying to stick Mecha-Godzilla in your brother's ear" to "What did you take, when, and how many?", "look we can agree that pot should be legalized, but that doesn't mean you can smoke it in my house", and "Thanks officer for bringing my smartass son home instead of tasing or arresting him."

In underwriting or actuary terms, the problems shift from high incidence, lower severity to lower incidence and mid to high severity. And the problems tend to be more emotionally intense and painful. Intellectually it is easy to understand that you want your kids to stand on their own, learn from mistakes, and grow from them. Emotionally, it is hard to forget that little, drowned rat looking gnome that used to wait for you to come home, so he could curl up on your chest and go to sleep. Especially when he is staring at you eyeball to eyeball radiating contempt and telling you how much he hates you. It is difficult to watch them make stupid mistakes, especially ones that you warned them against, which will have possible ripple effects throughout their entire lives.

I wish all of you relatively smooth and trouble free teen years, friends. And I give you better odds than I had. Most of you seem to be better established and mature than I was when I had young kids. But I would bet real money that almost all of you will face at some point, a sullen, barely recognizable homunculus, wishing that he or she was a sweet little kid again.

I don't think it's wrong to think that, necessarily, but she probably didn't need to publish that particular part for posterity for the sake of her children's feelings. Nobody wants to know that their parent has imagined how they would still have a life after they were abducted and killed.

Even as a sullen, moody teen I would have been okay with this. After all, as much as I devoutly wished it to be true, I recognized then as I do today, that the sun does not rise and set in my ass, and would hope that my parents could have a good life after my death.

[Whitestripe]

Even as a sullen, moody teen I would have been okay with this. After all, as much as I devoutly wished it to be true, I recognized then as I do today, that the sun does not rise and set in my ass, and would hope that my parents could have a good life after my death.

Thank you for articulating what I've been trying to say. :)

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

In underwriting or actuary terms, the problems shift from high incidence, lower severity to lower incidence and mid to high severity.

I think that's accurate. However, in terms of the entire aspect of having little outside life, etc., that is generally what torments parents of babies, that problem disappears. You get much of your free time back, and just have to deal with the incidental problems, even if they are more severe. At the same time, you also start getting a different type of reward for parenting. Instead of smiles, hugs, and laughs, you get to teach your kids how to shoot a basketball, or take them white water rafting, introduce them to the books you loved, etc.. It's all sort of part of the package.

[Guest Raidne]

It is, perhaps, too candid for public admission. But it's completely normal to consider what one would do if something like that were to happen. And there is no fault in realizing that one would, with difficuly, still carry on. That one could even still manage to have relatively happy life after.

She raises some good points, but they seem to be getting lost under the outrage over her more extreme statements.

Agreed. Although I'm not outraged by any means. I just can't condone a few things she says, and I've read a few other articles both in the media lately and back in college that raised this point also - the whole Supermom thing is totally pernicious.

Even as a sullen, moody teen I would have been okay with this. After all, as much as I devoutly wished it to be true, I recognized then as I do today, that the sun does not rise and set in my ass, and would hope that my parents could have a good life after my death.

I agree with the latter part, but I feel like the implication of the way you wrote it is that a child who was upset that their mother wrote a piece about how much more upset they would be if her husband died than if her children were abducted and murdered is utterly self-centered. I think a child who would want their parents' lives to be over if something happened to them is utterly self-centered and emotionally immature, but having a mother who thinks it's cool to communicate this to you is a whole other thing. Similarly, I appreciate all that my mother gave up professionally to raise my sister and I, I do. On the other hand, I probably could have dealt with hearing about it a little less.

Having said all that, it was mentioned earlier that the author is a diagnosed narcissist, and so I think her totally admirable point that women should stop feeling guilty if their children are not the center of their lives is somewhat mixed up with her desire to be candid about her narcissism in terms of that particular statement. But on the flip side, being able to be honest about one's own narcissism is, itself, a rare and admirable trait.

Anyway, I'll leave it at that, since it's one small issue that probably shouldn't overshadow the overall point. I guess, to summarize, I'd say that mothers should be not selfless or selfish and that we've been tilted toward selfless for a really, really long time. Having said that, as we trend to center, we should make sure not to push it too far. And the same warning goes for fathers, for whom the historical trends run in the opposite direction.

[Elder Sister]

I think that's accurate. However, in terms of the entire aspect of having little outside life, etc., that is generally what torments parents of babies, that problem disappears. You get much of your free time back, and just have to deal with the incidental problems, even if they are more severe. At the same time, you also start getting a different type of reward for parenting. Instead of smiles, hugs, and laughs, you get to teach your kids how to shoot a basketball, or take them white water rafting, introduce them to the books you loved, etc.. It's all sort of part of the package.

I think it depends on how much grief your teenager(s) give you. If I could have run away and joined the Foreign Legion or something when I had a teenager, I would have. In a heartbeat. Of course, I survived it, and so did my daughter, and we now have a fantastic relationship, but it was extremely tough for a period of 4 or 5 years.

[Greg]

Thank you for articulating what I've been trying to say. :)

I had you in mind, Michelle. I know how very much you wanted your kids and how much you love them. But, you and P seem to have worked out a pretty good unspoken(?) solution to the tension brought by bringing kids into a long standing relationship. In this regard, you are kinda my hero:).

I agree with the latter part, but I feel like the implication of the way you wrote it is that a child who was upset that their mother wrote a piece about how much more upset they would be if her husband died than if her children were abducted and murdered is utterly self-centered. I think a child who would want their parents' lives to be over if something happened to them is utterly self-centered and emotionally immature, but having a mother who thinks it's cool to communicate this to you is a whole other thing. Similarly, I appreciate all that my mother gave up professionally to raise my sister and I, I do. On the other hand, I probably could have dealt with hearing about it a little less.

Having said all that, it was mentioned earlier that the author is a diagnosed narcissist, and so I think her totally admirable point that women should stop feeling guilty if their children are not the center of their lives is somewhat mixed up with her desire to be candid about her narcissism in terms of that particular statement. But on the flip side, being able to be honest about one's own narcissism is, itself, a rare and admirable trait.

If you think I merely implied it, I failed. Because that is what I meant:p. It is utterly self-centered.

Having said that, I had parents who were hell bent on making sure their kids were well educated. Towards this end Mom and Dad gave up a lot of comfort, security, and happiness. As an adult, I am humbled, grateful, and a little awed by what they did. However, as a typically self-centered teen, I sure as hell was sick of hearing about it. Maybe you and I should go bowling sometime:p.

IMHO,I don't think it is admirable for a narcissist to admit bravely, with fanfare, what a bastard he or she is. It's part of the high self regard, I think. "Look at how SELF AWARE I am. Now admire me for my hard hitting, brutal honesty"

I think it depends on how much grief your teenager(s) give you. If I could have run away and joined the Foreign Legion or something when I had a teenager, I would have. In a heartbeat. Of course, I survived it, and so did my daughter, and we now have a fantastic relationship, but it was extremely tough for a period of 4 or 5 years.

This.

Oh my, this 20 times over.

If someone in your care is really self destructive or difficult, it can erode or even destroy the basic elements of trust that hold a family together. The exhaustion and worry over what awaits you, when you get home...it is very nerve wracking. You hope and trust that the behavior will pass with effort and time, but it doesn't always.

[Whitestripe]

I had you in mind, Michelle. I know how very much you wanted your kids and how much you love them. But, you and P seem to have worked out a pretty good unspoken(?) solution to the tension brought by bringing kids into a long standing relationship. In this regard, you are kinda my hero:).

Awww, thanks. :) I guess it is unspoken. Did we sit down and divide up the responsiblities? No. Do we each pull a fair share? I think so. We negotiate. We bargain. We yell at each other, and somehow it all works out in the end.

[Minaku]

Parents of older kids, thanks for giving us some perspective. I am an only child and though I was not by any means an uncontrollable or even slightly wild teenager, my mother and I did have enough fights during those years that ended up boiling outside and filled the house with venom for days. At the time it was a lot of me thinking everything was her fault, and when I went to college I deliberately stopped being in contact a lot. It probably hurt my mom a lot though she has never admitted it. I was the kid who wouldn't call home for weeks.

Our relationship is way, WAY better now, 10 years after I started college. I think I'll go call her and tell her I'm okay. It's easy to forget as a teen that your mother is not an evil overlord but someone who is trying her best to look out for you and keep you from making really stupid decisions, and it's easy as an adult to forget the hurt you caused when you were a teen.

[Kalbear]

First off, I want to say sorry to FLOW. I was wrong, I assumed wrong, and I insinuated wrongly.

I do think that it's interesting that those parents who have had older kids tend to be in the 'it's really worth it' camp. And with my experiences with older kids - even ones that are similarly challenging to Greg's fun times - that they're significantly less stressworthy and less work on a regular basis. Yes, the big issues are much bigger (usually) - I'll still never forget having to go searching for my daughter who decided to run away in a snit on father's day - but the day to day stresses are much less.

And that's a real key for me; being on constant guard at all times, not having any moments to yourself - these sometimes feel like a form of actual, literal torture.

I don't really know how to say this, but I stayed in a relationship that was terrible for a really long time because a lot of friends, family, and marriage therapists fed me this bullshit. I mean, it's true, but it isn't. Anyone else know how to say what I mean here? I want to say that I'm good with the effort and thought part, but "work" is probably going a step too far. If a person finds that they have moved on from effort to work, then, in my experience, that is a person with underlying problems in their relationship that should have been addressed before things got to that point.

That's fair, and it's reasonable to say. The point is still valid. I would put it this way - it is work, but much like children the work doesn't feel like it when you're doing it. At least sometimes, for some people. I think those same people that can look at any baby and melt are the ones most inclined to feel that way about the work young children require.

At the end of the day you're of course right and wrong - that you shouldn't stay in a relationship that is actively causing you pain or that is simply too much work. But what 'too much work' is is going to differ for people, and more importantly it's going to be work regardless. That work may be enjoyable and interesting and fun, but it's still work. Some days you'll have a good time at work, and some days you'll have a bad time.

[Guest Raidne]

Having said that, I had parents who were hell bent on making sure their kids were well educated. Towards this end Mom and Dad gave up a lot of comfort, security, and happiness. As an adult, I am humbled, grateful, and a little awed by what they did. However, as a typically self-centered teen, I sure as hell was sick of hearing about it. Maybe you and I should go bowling sometime:p.

Yeah, I'm thinking your situation and my situation are probably just very different, unless one of your parents, like my Mother and the author, also has a personality disorder.

IMHO,I don't think it is admirable for a narcissist to admit bravely, with fanfare, what a bastard he or she is. It's part of the high self regard, I think. "Look at how SELF AWARE I am. Now admire me for my hard hitting, brutal honesty"

Yeah, it's tough to parse that one out for me. What I mean is the inability to know that one is a narcissist is, in my understanding, part of being a narcissist, so it would only be through some kind of introspective process that I cannot comprehend that a person could get to that kind of understanding of themselves, seems like.

At the end of the day you're of course right and wrong - that you shouldn't stay in a relationship that is actively causing you pain or that is simply too much work. But what 'too much work' is is going to differ for people, and more importantly it's going to be work regardless. That work may be enjoyable and interesting and fun, but it's still work. Some days you'll have a good time at work, and some days you'll have a bad time.

This is, IMO, one of the hardest things in life that we grapple with as humans.

On the subject of children and work, I got curious and read that board Mina was talking about and was appalled at the number of people posting who are constantly hit by their children. One woman said her four year old daughter ran over and grabbed and twisted both her breasts when she wouldn't let her play with the toy she wanted. Stories similar to this were not uncommon - children beating their infant siblings, children abusing animals, etc. I mean, Jesus Christ!!! WTF do you do if you end up with that? Tell me that's not common!

[Sci-2]

IMHO,I don't think it is admirable for a narcissist to admit bravely, with fanfare, what a bastard he or she is. It's part of the high self regard, I think. "Look at how SELF AWARE I am. Now admire me for my hard hitting, brutal honesty"

This.

[Minaku]

You quit having children. That's the only solution I can come up with. A lot of those situations are caused by a mismatch between parent and child personality or parenting styles. There is no one size fits all, sadly. If only there were...

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Parents of older kids, thanks for giving us some perspective. I am an only child and though I was not by any means an uncontrollable or even slightly wild teenager, my mother and I did have enough fights during those years that ended up boiling outside and filled the house with venom for days. At the time it was a lot of me thinking everything was her fault, and when I went to college I deliberately stopped being in contact a lot. It probably hurt my mom a lot though she has never admitted it. I was the kid who wouldn't call home for weeks.

Our relationship is way, WAY better now, 10 years after I started college. I think I'll go call her and tell her I'm okay. It's easy to forget as a teen that your mother is not an evil overlord but someone who is trying her best to look out for you and keep you from making really stupid decisions, and it's easy as an adult to forget the hurt you caused when you were a teen.

It is so freaking hard to be a good parent. Seriously. Because inevitably, you fuck up, and then the consequences of that cause negative reactions, and trying to keep all that shit under control is really, really tough. In my experience, the toughest relationships are mother/daughter, followed by father/son. The opposite gender ones tend to be less stressful.