Having children ruins everything

[awesome possum]

Being a single parent is one of the hardest things to do in life. My wife and I work opposite schedules, so when I come home from work she goes, so we're essentially single parents with joint custody on the weekends.

Of all the jobs I've worked in my life, including the hard labor jobs I worked as a teenager on various farms, there has been nothing more difficult than parenting alone.

[Minaku]

FLOW, there's no way we can convince the childless how great it is to have kids. Unless they just say fuck it, let's go have kids and discover for themselves what kind of crazy adventure they've gotten themselves into.

Let's just say this thread is the dark underbelly of the kid propaganda machine. Oh sure, they're great. I have been blessed with a son whose temperament is just short of perfect. Once he turned into a toddler and was able to get thoughts from his brain to his mouth, things got ridiculously easy (compared to the first year, which was on FUCK ME levels of difficulty). Kids are definitely hard work. Take the good with the bad, and all that.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

FLOW, there's no way we can convince the childless how great it is to have kids. Unless they just say fuck it, let's go have kids and discover for themselves what kind of crazy adventure they've gotten themselves into.

I agree. But there is a way to convince them not to. And generally, the people who are seeking advice aren't just "the childless", but rather "the childless who are seriously thinking about having a baby." In most cases, I assume that's because one or both of them already have an affirmative desire to have kids. I think it is perfectly appropriate to be honest about the difficulties, but equally appropriate to be honest about the wonderful parts of it for balance.

Let's just say this thread is the dark underbelly of the kid propaganda machine. Oh sure, they're great. I have been blessed with a son whose temperament is just short of perfect. Once he turned into a toddler and was able to get thoughts from his brain to his mouth, things got ridiculously easy (compared to the first year, which was on FUCK ME levels of difficulty). Kids are definitely hard work. Take the good with the bad, and all that.

Maybe I missed out on the "kid propaganda machine". I had a brother with kids, and I know how it impacted his life. I had people tell me "your life will never be the same", "get all the sleep you can now", etc. So I think I went into it with a general understanding that it was going to be tough. And maybe it had something to do with having a college/military background that included lots of deprivation. Didn't seem a big deal to me. So I jumped off that cliff anyway, and never regretted it. Even though all the stuff about it being hard was true.

Actually, that latter statement is not completely true. For some odd reason, some parents like to tell new parents that babies are "easy" and it only gets harder after that. And really, that's complete bullshit. You generally get different issues as they get older, but the 24 hour attention thing a baby needs goes away, and in terms of getting your life back, it generally gets much easier as you go along. Not sure why people say that other than to build up their own ego that they still have it "tough".

[Jaxom 1974]

It's obviously going to depend person to person, but life does not end with children. It absolutely changes, but it does not end. There are things that are more difficult, or even impossible, to do with a young child. But.,.they grow up. Eventually they get to a point where you feel comfortable someone else can look after them for a night or a weekend. Immediately? no...but over time.

Oh, and I still get to play golf. Go out to dinner. See friends. play video games. workout...have my life. For the time being his life and it's requirements impinge on mine...but again, seeing him laugh and smile makes even 1:31am feedings worth while.

This. The level of difficulty one finds themselves in with the job of parenting can depend a great deal on how much of the parents time is consumed by the children. Of course the kids have priority, but not finding a way to make it work and still find time to do things for yourselves? That's just heaping trouble on top of little to no sleep.

I don't get out to play golf, go to dinner or the movies like I used to, but Mrs. Jax and I have gotten things to the point where we know we can if we want to. And that makes a world of difference. For us, right now, it's simply more fun to spend the time with the kiddos instead. As they're getting a little older (and Nora will finally be weened) we see more things than we even have now on the horizon and that's just fine with us.

I think that made sense.

[Lyanna Stark]

Actually, that latter statement is not completely true. For some odd reason, some parents like to tell new parents that babies are "easy" and it only gets harder after that. And really, that's complete bullshit. You generally get different issues as they get older, but the 24 hour attention thing a baby needs goes away, and in terms of getting your life back, it generally gets much easier as you go along. Not sure why people say that other than to build up their own ego that they still have it "tough".

I'd say it depends on the child. For me, having a baby was something I was totally prepped for and it worked great the first 9-10 months. Hardly a hitch apart from a severe infection that forced us to go for bottle feed instead of breastfeed, but that was on the whole just about a 2 week problem. She slept as expected, ate as expected, didn't cry a lot, didn't vomit almost at all, developed as expected. Was overall not a difficult child to deal with and I really enjoyed it and felt quite confident I could do this.

It was after that when all hell broke loose and she stopped sleeping apart from in 30 min shifts, she stopped eating almost completely (our dinners are still a battle of wills where only really imaginative coaxing and threats of time out will make her eat) and spent 3 consecutive months more or less ill just after she turned one. She'll be 3 in October so by then we will have handled 2+ years of this.

To me, dealing with a baby was easier, more predictable. It was feeding every 3 hours, so I had a schedule. I could plan accordingly and try and compensate my sleeping etc. With the crazy nights and working and the sicknesses...not so much.

From what I understand from people, most have it the other way around with the baby time being the most trying, but it's definitely not true for everyone.

[mouse]

There is a kid propoganda machine out there.

-You see it in the proclamations that "The second you look into your newborn's eyes, you will fall instantly in love." This isn't always the case, and the propoganda can be harmful for the mother who thinks there's something wrong with her when she doen't immediately fall in love. It's helpful to know that it might happen, and it might not, and either way, you'll (probably) be a good mother.

-You see it in all the nauseating Facebook cut-and-paste drivel about kids being so wonderful, and the center of the universe, and "you can't know love until you've had a child," etc., and "repost if you love your child!"

-You see (to reference another thread) it in the cultural/societal acceptance that it's okay for working mothers to be able to say, "I wish I didn't have to work and I could stay home with my babies!" but it's not okay to say the opposite.

So I think there's a lot of merit to the idea that it's good to talk about the hard parts, and the parts you hate. That being said, I don't think any of the audience for this thread, on this board, is naive enough to think that babies are all happiness and candy and roses and sunshine. I think anyone reading this thread who is on the fence about having kids has no illusions.

And, yeah, it can be hard. Last night, for example, both my kids were nighmares. The baby (7 months) was cranky, tired, and whiny. She cried because she wanted to hold the spoon, cried some more because she kept dropping it, and cried even more because she's not developed enough to actually get any food into her mouth. The toddler threw 5 temper tantrums, complete with shrieking at the top of her lungs, in the span of two hours, because (a) we wouldn't let her put green beans in her ears or nose, (B) we wouldn't fill up her swimming pool, © it was time to wash her hands, and I don't even remember what else. It's hard, and I can handle it only because I have a husband who is an amazing father. I have no idea how single parents do it.

But I still adore them both. It still is worth it - for me. I don't have any regrets.

[Guest Raidne]

I hate to disagree with people that I frequently agree with so much that I don't even bother posting because they've already said it better, but I totally disagree with Lyanna and kalbear.

I have a 2 1/2 year old and a 7 month old, and I would say my brain hasn't turned to much. I think my kids are challenging but rewarding. Going back to work did not suck - I loved going back to work and I love being back at work. It's not easy, and there are days where my husband and I look at each other and say, "What did we do with all that time we had before kids??" and I will admit that sometimes I'm so tired that I turn to bad reality tv. But overall, I don't think becoming a parent changes who you are.

Just wanted to mention that talking to you over lunch was when I was realized that it wasn't that I didn't want to have kids, I just didn't want to have kids with the guy I was married to. I have a question, also - am I remembering correctly that your husband is the primary care-taker or do you 50/50 co-parent? I wonder that about all the differing opinions in the thread - what percentage of the childcare does everyone do?

No judgment there, schedules are different and some things can't be helped, I'm just wondering how it correlates with the effects we're talking about.

I have considered this angle.

Yeah, that's why I asked, too. No longer being interested in your most favorite things is an indicator that it's a possibility worth looking into.

Relationships are hard work, for instance. I know we've been indoctrinated to think that there's this one true love out there and that everything will be great if you only Love Really Hard or something, but honestly that's just not true; the best relationships take work and effort and thought. If you're expecting something perfect or easy, well, you'll be disappointed.

I don't really know how to say this, but I stayed in a relationship that was terrible for a really long time because a lot of friends, family, and marriage therapists fed me this bullshit. I mean, it's true, but it isn't. Anyone else know how to say what I mean here? I want to say that I'm good with the effort and thought part, but "work" is probably going a step too far. If a person finds that they have moved on from effort to work, then, in my experience, that is a person with underlying problems in their relationship that should have been addressed before things got to that point.

With regard to kids, I've seen it both ways. It depends on the kids. I have a friend whose child sleeps well, generally behaves well, etc., and while he requires constant attention, he doesn't require constant work. OTOH, my former sister-in-law is possibly the best mother I have ever seen and you can tell that my former niece would just be a total shit if she wasn't constantly, constantly working with her to keep her in line. The moment she's not totally vigilant, her daughter will bite, kick, grab, run into the street, etc. But she listens to her Mom, 100%, because she's never let up, never been inconsistent, etc. I cannot imagine doing this.

That is what terrifies me about children. You can have a kid with a chilled out personality, or you can have a sociopath. And there is nothing you can do to make it one way or the other.

[mouse]

Just wanted to mention that talking to you over lunch was when I was realized that it wasn't that I didn't want to have kids, I just didn't want to have kids with the guy I was married to. I have a question, also - am I remembering correctly that your husband is the primary care-taker or do you 50/50 co-parent? I wonder that about all the differing opinions in the thread - what percentage of the childcare does everyone do?

No judgment there, schedules are different and some things can't be helped, I'm just wondering how it correlates with the effects we're talking about.

[snip]

That is what terrifies me about children. You can have a kid with a chilled out personality, or you can have a sociopath. And there is nothing you can do to make it one way or the other.

My husband and I both work full-time. However, I work lawyer hours and he works more 9-5 hours, usually. So he puts in more solo hours than I do. And most of the time, not always, if one of us needs to take time off because of the kids, he does. But when we're both home, it is more 50/50. With two kids, and one still a baby, frequently I'm with the baby and he's with the toddler.

But, yeah, my opinion is that your child's temperament and/or personality is luck of the draw. Some parents have great kids, and are so smug about it; what worked for them must be the One Right Way to raise children. It's not so. IMO.

[TerraPrime]

But, yeah, my opinion is that your child's temperament and/or personality is luck of the draw. Some parents have great kids, and are so smug about it; what worked for them must be the One Right Way to raise children. It's not so. IMO.

There's a whole area of developmental psych that talks about the temperament matches between children/infant and parents. So yes, I believe this, as well. The effectiveness of your parenting will depend on both your personality traits and your children's traits. Having them aligned will make things so much easier for both parties, but hey, we don't get to choose.

[Eponine]

FLOW, there's no way we can convince the childless how great it is to have kids. Unless they just say fuck it, let's go have kids and discover for themselves what kind of crazy adventure they've gotten themselves into.

I agree. But there is a way to convince them not to. And generally, the people who are seeking advice aren't just "the childless", but rather "the childless who are seriously thinking about having a baby." In most cases, I assume that's because one or both of them already have an affirmative desire to have kids. I think it is perfectly appropriate to be honest about the difficulties, but equally appropriate to be honest about the wonderful parts of it for balance.

As a member of the childless who is seriously rethinking my decision about children and not being the one who already has an affirmative desire to have kids, actually hearing about the difficulties in terms of logistical problems is more appealing to me than anything that's been said about the wonderful parts.

For those of us who aren't inclined toward children to begin with, the good parts of having children are often phrased in a vague emotional way that isn't meaningful for people who don't already feel that way toward children. I have friends who always wanted kids and if you'd told them before having kids, "you'll fall in love as soon as you look into your newborn's eyes", they'd agree because they already fall a little in love whenever they see any baby. My feelings when being around a baby are usually summed up as "hey, that's a baby. I hope no one asks me to hold it". The things that a parent finds wonderful about their own child are pretty uninteresting to me on a personal level.

But while the parts about people having trouble holding onto their own interests freaks me out, hearing about the logistical difficulties does not. In fact, considering time management problems makes the entire thing feel doable to me, especially since I'm supremely confident in my ability to catch small amounts of sleep in any place or position. Coordinating sleeping, feeding, sickness, etc. is like a challenge. And no matter how hard it is at the time, it's obviously a challenge that parents can and do overcome. This is more appealing to me about having a baby than being told that I'll feel some special emotions.

[Inigima]

FLOW, there's no way we can convince the childless how great it is to have kids. Unless they just say fuck it, let's go have kids and discover for themselves what kind of crazy adventure they've gotten themselves into.

Please don't do this stuff. It's very patronizing and suggests that Oh, everyone would love having kids if they tried it. Or Oh, it would be different if it were your own. You can't know that, and it's extremely condescending to suggest that those of us who don't want them are simply unenlightened.

[Minaku]

Doing all the coordinating contributes greatly to losing one's own interests. Your child will be a black hole - he will suck up your time, your energy, but most importantly your love. And you do it because of a few reasons, one of which is that it's your responsibility to do right by this thing that's half you, another of which is you don't want to be THAT PARENT. Not wanting to be THAT PARENT directly influences the amount of constant vigilance.

[Guest Raidne]

How about this? A friend of mine (the one with the great kid I was talking about earlier, by the way) said that the time you'll know that you're really ready to have kids is when you find out you're pregnant and can't get an abortion.

Or, you know, maybe it's when you're like, fuck it, I really feel like my ability to fuck up the lives of others is woefully limited. Let's have kids!!!

In all seriousness, it's not like the people have already had kids can take it back. In that sense, I can personally totally deal with people telling me I don't understand how great it is to have kids, because I still have a choice in the matter and can afford to be generous. Saying that kind of thing to people who can't physically have children (or, I suppose, on a public message board where people who cannot conceive are part of the conversation) is probably pretty rude I guess, but I absolutely think the sentiment is genuine, and I think it's easy to forget about the last part.

[Minaku]

Please don't do this stuff. It's very patronizing and suggests that Oh, everyone would love having kids if they tried it. Or Oh, it would be different if it were your own. You can't know that, and it's extremely condescending to suggest that those of us who don't want them are simply unenlightened.

You know me, and you know I'd never try to convince you to have children. It's a decision you have to make yourself unless a stroke of bad luck makes it for you. My comment was more along the lines of childless people don't want children for xyz. They live on a different planet from the people who do have children, and it is not something they would get unless they move to the planet of people with children. The people on the planet with children naturally think having kids is great (sometimes) because well, if we didn't, we'd all be running screaming and committing suicide and lamenting the fall of the human race. How do I convince someone from Planet Childless, being a denizen of Planet With Kids, that Planet With Kids is a certain way? The only way to find out is to move from Planet Childless to Planet With Kids. No guarantee that the real estate you get on Planet With Kids is going to be to your liking.

[mouse]

But while the parts about people having trouble holding onto their own interests freaks me out, hearing about the logistical difficulties does not.

My experience has been that I can still have my interests, just on a far more limited basis. As a small example, I'm a reader. I look back at my pre-kids Goodreads list, and I was reading 60 or so books a year. After Kid #1, that dropped to about 30. This year, I'll probably read about 25. I'm still reading, but not like I used to. (Well, I'm reading "Dora Choo-Choo" and "Llama Llama Red Pajama" a LOT.) I also used to run or get to the gym 5 times a week. Now I run about 3 times a week. I go out with friends, but it's scheduled a week or more in advance.

[Guest Raidne]

Ep, that you are considering having kids is the most shocking thing I have heard all year and that is saying something.

[Minaku]

Next thing we know, you and Ep will be due date buddies and you'll turn into...a BabyCenter mama. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

I'm kidding but there is always that fear, like when women get engaged and then turn into the Bridezilla from The Knot.

[Jaime L]

This thread has been a great read and candid. Feel like I witnessed a lot of this with my sister's kids and the relentlessness of the moment to moment seeing to of their needs and keeping them safe. I think a lot of the things said here are what she likely would've said but didn't likely out of a desire not to give off the wrong impression or signal that she regrets her decision in any way. I'm positive she doesn't...but that doesn't mean it hasn't been and often still is extremely difficult.

There's that saying that you don't fully appreciate your parents until you become one and I think that's true. But I think you can get at least brief windows into it even without kids. This thread has been one, seeing the endless patience of my sister and her husband is another.

The end result is I find myself more and more astounded with my parents selflessness each passing year.

[Guest Raidne]

Next thing we know, you and Ep will be due date buddies and you'll turn into...a BabyCenter mama. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

I'm kidding but there is always that fear, like when women get engaged and then turn into the Bridezilla from The Knot.

What is...a BabyCenter mama? Do I just not want to know?

ETA: Somebody needs to buy that island community so that Raids and Ep can have their babies and i can serve them drinks while in labor. HELLS YEAH. lol

Indeed, then I can say my children were raised by the internet.

[Guest]

Really? I didn't know it wasn't like that for all parents. In fact, when I had my first child is when I knew my marriage was over - because i loved my child so ridiculously much more than I cared about my spouse.

The inverse of this reminds me of the controversy with Ayelet Waldman. Married to Michael Chabon, she wrote the essay about how she loved her husband more than her kids. I was astounded at how much shit she received for it. She rocked the propaganda machine to its core.