Having children ruins everything

[Inigima]

Kal, great stuff, interesting and helpful. Thanks.

[Greg]

Children limit your choices and soak up resources. As individuals and collectively they are black holes of time, attention, affection, and money. When they are young they smell funny, destroy anything nice that you own, ask endless questions, and frustrate years off your life. When they are young adults they smell worse, destroy everything that you own (nice or not), have all the answers, and infuriate years off your life. It seems as if one minute your little angel is telling you he wants to be a daddy...and a lion tamer :). The next you are standing in critical care watching his fragile body twitch and shake, waiting for good news...any good news.

Having kids is difficult and trying. Anyone who tells you differently is either lying or living an exceptional and enviable life.

But. for every bad memory there are one or two really good ones and six pleasant ones. Watching all of them come into the world. Listening to them spin silly stories about the family pets or perform improv exercises they got from Whose Line is it Anyway? Having them spontaneously sing Angel Band as I drove the old green mini-van through the dark East Tennessee hills, their sweet voices falling on me like warm summer rain. The birthday party where my son got to be the king, who summoned his knights to his hall to feast, give and receive presents, and to go forth and slay the dragon. Having one of my other sons leap to my defense ,when one of the knights tried to impale the dragon by trying to stick his blade through the dragon's, that is, my crotch. Having my ten year old roll his eyes and explain to me that Captain Jack Harkness can like both The Doctor and his companion because, silly Daddy, He Goes Both Ways. When just before I posted this, my eighteen year old, who has had little or nothing kind to say about or to me for the last four years, came and asked me for advice on a RPG campaign that he is designing for his friends. Watching all of them grow in just confidence and earned skill.

It's great. It sucks. Sometimes I regret having them. But... I always know I would be shattered if I were to lose any one of them. Would I do it all over again, if I knew then what I know now? Maybe not. But I'm glad I did.

[Greg]

M-

In response to your original question.

My wife not only recovered, but is sharper now than she ever was. It gets better, I promise:).

[Castel]

I've always thought that having kids was one of those strange inexplicable things people did. This thread has convinced me that I wasn't being an asshole (well, not just). Holy shit.I'm sorry, but this is one life experience I'm sitting out. It is refreshing to hear people actually talk about the bad and not just try to sell you a pitch, which I find unconscionable.

Maybe if we as a culture could articulate the reasons for having kids in a considered way, we could manage the expectations of parenting a bit better (still no benefits for managing the realities though).

Maybe I'm a cynic, but it seems simple to me; evolution. Humanity needs children to survive so your body throws so many chemicals at you that you comply, and feel good complying, then being creatures that like community and others to follow our rules,and by biological vanity we want our line to continue, we pass this on and glorify it.

But yes, there is a fucked up knee jerk reaction that parents have to take both from their peers and those without children when something goes wrong. I remember that not too long ago some radio guy was claiming that we should imprison people whose children killed other people or fucked up in some way. If confronted I'm sure he'd say that it was an over the top act, but he seemed serious to me. People definitely expect parents to be the sole rulers of their child's worlds, which is completely impossible.

EDIT: Although I logically know that Louis C.K. is right in that video, I would honestly say that teaching kids things would be the part I would take the most pleasure from. It's funny, a video that is uncharitable towards child rearing makes it more interesting.

[Lyanna Stark]

I am really appreciative of the honesty in this thread. A lot of people are dancing around the notion that having children was a mistake. That is really interesting, and it takes a lot of balls for any of you to admit it since there are so many societal pressures to have kids.

Dunno if I'd call it a mistake since that would indicate I regretted having her, which is not the case. It's like kalbear said, I could not imagine life without my daughter. It just does not compute, or is a meaningless comparison.

Some people seem more "natural" parents than others though. I'm definitely not and for the longest time I was doubtful if I was ever going to have children. It was not an easy decision to make. I also think I am a pretty bad parent overall, which I have found rather liberating since I don't need to get onto the kid as trend object train a lot of parents seem to be on. Like "oh my kid eats only organic food" or "we go to babyswim, baby yoga and baby singing at least twice a week".

My daughter can do metal horns, sing Lady Gaga songs and say "wanker" flawlessly, on the other hand. And she can tell me that she wants a biscuit in two different languages.

[mashiara]

I am really appreciative of the honesty in this thread. A lot of people are dancing around the notion that having children was a mistake. That is really interesting, and it takes a lot of balls for any of you to admit it since there are so many societal pressures to have kids.

I hope I'm not one of the people who gave you that impression. As excruciatingly hard as it dealing with the twins every day, especially with no help, I don't regret it one bit. I can't imagine life without them. I -we- tried for 5 years to have children, it was a very conscious decision that cost us a lot of grief, drove us to the edge of depression and ate up our savings. The end result is beyond what we had hoped for. We might complain about them often and loudly, but we wouldn't change one thing.

[Whitestripe]

Wow, so much to say here. I agree 100% with Kal. I'm itching to respond, but am at a conference with only my phone which is not good for long posts.

[Greywolf2375]

I am really appreciative of the honesty in this thread. A lot of people are dancing around the notion that having children was a mistake. That is really interesting, and it takes a lot of balls for any of you to admit it since there are so many societal pressures to have kids.

To jump on to what Lyanna & Mashiara said, I don't know if anyone is dancing around that. I think that most are saying it's work, 24/7...365...and the payment you get is a smile, a giggle or an hour when they are napping for you to catch up on everything around the house. Your life will adjust because you, generally, have every responsibility you had before and now you add on this adorable little creature that has no capability whatsoever to care after itself. So you are responsible for you, your share of the house work and making sure your child has food, clean clothes/diaper, isn't too warm/cold/etc.

the irony around our house is that since Jack was born, the place has never been cleaner, laundry done more quickly, things picked up because really quickly we learned the word "later" doesn't exist anymore. Dishes don't go into the sink to be put into the dishwasher later, they go there now because the sink is for Jack's bottles. Laundry? before it would be a big pile...now we actually undress and immediately separate whites/colors/delicates...because otherwise it doesn't happen. Cleaning? has to be done because we don't want to not see a toy under our foot when we are carrying him. Or tummy time - I want the floor, even though he is on a blanket, under him to be very clean.

Similar to Mashiara, Krista and I were trying for more than 5 years and eventually were successful via IVF (though we do believe we would have been successful far earlier if her prior OB & PCP weren't complete fucking retards). When Jack does have his meltdowns, I actually find myself smiling because I am that happy that I get to deal with an upset baby. It's frustrating as hell...he has a piercing scream and is getting amazing range, but like Kal said, now that he is in our lives, I can't imagine anything different. We're hoping that as he gets closer to 1 we might be able to start trying for bubaloo #2.

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

The doctor? Told us to suck it the fuck up and stop fucking whining, is what she said. Also "they grow out of it".

EDIT: to be fair, she only normally wakes up a few times during the nights now so at least a couple of nights a week with only getting up once at 4 am is pretty ok. I can deal. It's when you have week after week and month after month of sleeping in 30 min shifts you start to really, really fray at the edges.

Don't get me wrong, I love my daughter like you wouldn't believe, but she is a demon from hell (in fact that makes me love her more, because she is just more of everything than other kids) but it's hard work.

EDIT2: Sorry for derailing your thread Mina. I have always seen you as super mum, if that helps, and you seem absolutely super articulate here and elsewhere too.

I'm not sure this is relevant at all, but talk of toddlers just not sleeping reminded me of this article.

[Ixodes]

I am really appreciative of the honesty in this thread. A lot of people are dancing around the notion that having children was a mistake. That is really interesting, and it takes a lot of balls for any of you to admit it since there are so many societal pressures to have kids.

I think all of Kal's posts should be printed out and made mandatory reading for anyone contemplating having kids.

Really reflecting on the past 8 years of being a father, the only thing I can add is that it has made me a better person. Let me explain. That constant 24-7 stress makes you snap much, much more than you had before. At least for my personality, I tend to try to hold it in then find I reach a point where I explode at the worst time. Usually my kids take the brunt, and honestly they are usually the reason I snapped in the first place. You hit these points and afterwards you realize how shitty of a person you feel like.

For me this has been motivation to change. I have never worked so hard to alter how I handle stress and how I respond. The only reason is that I want to be better for my kids. I can take being shitty to myself, and to a degree I can take being shitty to my wife, but being that way to my kids really smacked me in the face. I have found a perspective in my life that I never knew and I can honestly say that I like myself better now than I did 9 years ago. The price has been enormous and the stress has been enormous, but when I look at myself with complete honesty I can say that my kids have driven me to be better. And to be completely honest they have also brought out some of the worst, but in the balance scheme I leaning towards the positive.

No doubt this is far from true for everyone. With the stress I can see why so many people and relationships fall apart after children. I thank my lucky stars that Mrs Ix and I have weathered some pretty nasty stuff.

[wolverine]

Maybe I can make my wife read this thread. She really wants to get pregnant NOW and I am still a little unsure, mostly because I am selfish though. I see all the stuff my brothers and friends can't do because they have kids and it just seems like to much work. I am just scared whether or not it will all be worth it.

[mormont]

I've always thought that having kids was one of those strange inexplicable things people did.

What's inexplicable about it?

It's really no different than most other human activities, being driven by the same motivations: to love, and be loved. Having kids is all about love. Sharing your life with another human being, and sharing theirs. It's another variety of love than romantic love or friendship, it's very different to those other forms, but underlying it is the same drive, and that drive is one of the most fundamental things about being human. There's really nothing more to explain about it, and nothing could be more obvious as an explanation. It's very far from inexplicable.

[Greywolf2375]

Maybe I can make my wife read this thread. She really wants to get pregnant NOW and I am still a little unsure, mostly because I am selfish though. I see all the stuff my brothers and friends can't do because they have kids and it just seems like to much work. I am just scared whether or not it will all be worth it.

It's obviously going to depend person to person, but life does not end with children. It absolutely changes, but it does not end. There are things that are more difficult, or even impossible, to do with a young child. But.,.they grow up. Eventually they get to a point where you feel comfortable someone else can look after them for a night or a weekend. Immediately? no...but over time.

Too much work? Not in my opinon. A lot of work? oh yeall yes. Whether it is worth it or not, for you, can only be decided by you. I look at it this way. I may not be able to play golf as much as i want to this summer. But someday, I'll be able to play golf with my wife and son.

The only thing I regret is that we couldn't figure out what was causing our problem earlier, because I am having a blast raising him...a poop infested, laundry filled, formula making at 1:31am blast.

Oh, and I still get to play golf. Go out to dinner. See friends. play video games. workout...have my life. For the time being his life and it's requirements impinge on mine...but again, seeing him laugh and smile makes even 1:31am feedings worth while.

[wolverine]

It's obviously going to depend person to person, but life does not end with children. It absolutely changes, but it does not end. There are things that are more difficult, or even impossible, to do with a young child. But.,.they grow up. Eventually they get to a point where you feel comfortable someone else can look after them for a night or a weekend. Immediately? no...but over time.

Too much work? Not in my opinon. A lot of work? oh yeall yes. Whether it is worth it or not, for you, can only be decided by you. I look at it this way. I may not be able to play golf as much as i want to this summer. But someday, I'll be able to play golf with my wife and son.

The only thing I regret is that we couldn't figure out what was causing our problem earlier, because I am having a blast raising him...a poop infested, laundry filled, formula making at 1:31am blast.

Oh, and I still get to play golf. Go out to dinner. See friends. play video games. workout...have my life. For the time being his life and it's requirements impinge on mine...but again, seeing him laugh and smile makes even 1:31am feedings worth while.

I do believe all that stuff, I have a dozen or so nieces and nephews, I would just like my wife to have realistic expectations of what it will be like. I think she forgets sometimes.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Maybe I can make my wife read this thread. She really wants to get pregnant NOW and I am still a little unsure, mostly because I am selfish though. I see all the stuff my brothers and friends can't do because they have kids and it just seems like to much work. I am just scared whether or not it will all be worth it.

The problem with this thread is that it contains the experiences/thoughts of certain people. Whether it's representative, who knows? I can say that I personally have a more positive view of child-rearing than some, but that's not really of any use either because it all depends on the individual.

The only thing that is likely true universally is that having a baby means a HUGE change to your life. How positive or negative that is varies from person to person. I really, really wanted kids, and despite all the burdens, I think those are massively outweighed by the joys -- little things like being able to shoot baskets with my kids. Introducing them to books and movies -- especially the ones I like. Heh. I play videogames with them -- my son loves the deathmatch ones because he usually kills my guy.

But again, every individual is different, and every kid is different, so generalizations about "is it worth it" are pretty useless.

If your wife wants kids, then I don't think anything she reads here can or should change her mind, as long as the "it will be a huge change" thing is understood.

[awesome possum]

I've got two kids. My daughter just turned six and my son is about 20 months. While my wife was sick they went to stay at Grandmas so I could continue to work; it's the longest in their lives they were without either of us. My daughter was gone for almost a month, the son for a week.

I don't think I've ever been lonlier in my entire life while having the house to myself for those 7 days.

And yet, within 10 hours of them being back home I wanted to strangle both of them. That's parenthood.

[Minaku]

None of the parents in this thread have said they don't want their kids. This thread was more of an exploration of what happens to a parent after kids and how to deal with those changes. For me, it involves some self-pity and lots of hours spent surfing the Internet.

Children are hard. But why should they be easy? Why should raising a baby to be a functional, contributing member of society be easy? It's one of the hardest things you will ever do, period.

Was it a mistake for me to have children? Maybe. But I look at all the things I did pre-baby (and my drinking and carousing days are long past so that's not an option) and I realize that having children was the next logical step in my development as a person. I have changed for the better, except for maybe my intelligence. I have reserves of patience now that I never had before. If I'm not completely frazzled then I can approach meltdown situations calmly and defuse them. I am less vindictive. You could say I've lost my love of bloodlust and my edge in battle, but I am so much more accepting of things now. I am more equipped to handle whatever shit is thrown at me thanks to having a child.

[Sci-2]

"Helpless...demanding...costing us billions. Does America really need children?"

-Colbert

[Kalbear]

The problem with this thread is that it contains the experiences/thoughts of certain people. Whether it's representative, who knows? I can say that I personally have a more positive view of child-rearing than some, but that's not really of any use either because it all depends on the individual.

I think one of the reasons that this thread is being hailed so positively is because for the most part parents don't talk about the negative aspects of childrearing. Or if they do, they do so in little vignettes instead of giving a holistic view. Parents are often discouraged from talking about how hard it is or how sometimes they just are having a really hard time dealing with their kids, because to do so is to say 'hey, I'm a bad parent' - witness Mandy's reaction to me as an example of this. Or yours, for that matter.

So parents aren't really allowed, much less encouraged, to talk about how hard things are or how hard it is to be happy with their kids. To say how much they miss things like regular showers or having privacy in the bathroom or have more than a few hours of uninterrupted sleep. How they'd love clothes that weren't stained by baby food or have a floor that is free of cheerio caltrops. Maybe they'd love to not know the lyrics to every Pixar song ever made. And if your experience is different, well that's really awesome - but that does not negate or reduce mine.

And no offense meant, Jeff, but I suspect strongly that the gender roles in your family mean that you did not have as large of a role in the early interacting with your children as your wife did.

I don't claim to speak for all parents or even any of them (though it seems like a few folks agree with me, which is w00t) - but I do think that the difficulty of parenting is understated. We have girls playing with baby dolls and thinking that it'll be this fun wonderful thing where the baby speaks and yay! We don't have the kid then have to go to their job or have their baby doll wake them up every 2 hours. And boys don't play with them at all. Especially in this familial diaspora where a large chunk of us don't have the family support mechanisms around new babies.

I will have to say that with the 6 and 9 year old (now 12 and 15) things were pretty awesome. Playing legos was win. Playing random role-play scenarios, looking for forts, seeing the discovery as you take them to your favorite outdoor places, seeing a live bear in Glacier, teaching them how to quickly estimate sales tax, having an allowance, watching one of them completely pwn at Halo, watching Cabin in the Woods and having us both declare it to be the best movie ever...the list goes on and on. But that's older. The payoff does happen when you can really interact with them - at least for me it did. But early on, there's a lot less fun and a lot more work. I think it's good to state that.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

I think one of the reasons that this thread is being hailed so positively is because for the most part parents don't talk about the negative aspects of childrearing. Or if they do, they do so in little vignettes instead of giving a holistic view. Parents are often discouraged from talking about how hard it is or how sometimes they just are having a really hard time dealing with their kids, because to do so is to say 'hey, I'm a bad parent' - witness Mandy's reaction to me as an example of this. Or yours, for that matter.

That's unfair. As you said, this thread was essentially a place for parents to vent/be open about the difficulties of raising kids. That's fine, but then by design, that creates an inaccurate view of parenting overall because it is expressly focusing on the negative. And if someone is going to start viewing this as an advice thread, than I think fairness to whomever is reading requires some balance.

So parents aren't really allowed, much less encouraged, to talk about how hard things are or how hard it is to be happy with their kids. To say how much they miss things like regular showers or having privacy in the bathroom or have more than a few hours of uninterrupted sleep. How they'd love clothes that weren't stained by baby food or have a floor that is free of cheerio caltrops. Maybe they'd love to not know the lyrics to every Pixar song ever made.

Who said that? I see absolutely nothing wrong with that, because being a parent can be a real bitch sometimes. My point - again - is that because this thread was being read by people without children who were considering having them, and looking to this thread for input, some balance was required.

And no offense meant, Jeff, but I suspect strongly that the gender roles in your family mean that you did not have as large of a role in the early interacting with your children as your wife did.

Well, let's see. My wife didn't work outside the home, and I did. But she considered my job "vacation" from raising the kids. So when I got home from work, she'd say "they're yours", then drive over to her mom's house. We'd both be in the house together for maybe 15 minutes tops. She'd eat dinner there, watch TV with her parents, and come home at 1 a.m. or so, after the baby, and later kid and baby, were in bed. So from the moment I got home, I was single dad. I was the one who fed, bathed, and put my kids to sleep every night. Alone. She had post-partum depression with my daughter, and that's a horrible thing. Not all that easy on the spouse either, though. Of course, she wasn't any more diligent when that ended, or with my son, so it's not much of an excuse.

Oh, and she had a bit of an idiosyncratic schedule. She liked to sleep in until noon or so, as did the kids because that's the schedule she had them on. So the baby wasn't ready to go to sleep until midnight or even later. I begged her to change that schedule because I had to be up at 6 (and usually did the nightime feedings) but she said "it works for us". Well, naturally -- it meant she'd have as little awake time with the kids as possible. One day I came home early from work because I was sick. It was about 11:30 a.m.. I hear my daughter in her crib screaming. I go in, she's soaked in pee, she's thrown up from screaming, and my wife is still sleeping in the next room. So I change my daughter, clean up the room, etc.. And later, when my daughter was older and my son was a baby, my daughter told me that my son would scream and scream in morning and that his mom wouldn't get him.

There's a reason she is my ex-wife. After the divorce, I had custody most days of the week, which meant I was a single dad for years. Maybe your situation was worse, I don't know. But mine wasn't easy because I had a very demanding job and had absolutely no downtime. Period.

Actually, my only "downtime" was the time I'd get posting on the old eesite/exboard version of this board. There are some folks here from way back then who I talked to about that stuff.

I will have to say that with the 6 and 9 year old (now 12 and 15) things were pretty awesome. Playing legos was win. Playing random role-play scenarios, looking for forts, seeing the discovery as you take them to your favorite outdoor places, seeing a live bear in Glacier, teaching them how to quickly estimate sales tax, having an allowance, watching one of them completely pwn at Halo, watching Cabin in the Woods and having us both declare it to be the best movie ever...the list goes on and on. But that's older. The payoff does happen when you can really interact with them - at least for me it did. But early on, there's a lot less fun and a lot more work. I think it's good to state that.

Sure it is. Raising kids isn't easy, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with bitching about the hardships. My daughter had colic, and had horrible sleeping problems lasting for a year after that. You basically lose your entire outside life for the first year+, except for those wonderful times when you can get a sitter or have a family member over. BUT, if that's all that is mentioned in the thread, and you have people making decisions about having kids based on the thread, it's a skewed view. That was my only point. So sure, I had all those nights when it was just me and my daughter. But I'd read to her, make up ridiculous stories about orcs and stuff without her having a clue what they were, singing the Marine Corps Hymn, the Thermos Song from the Jerk. Even without that outside life, I amused her by doing stuff that largely amused me at the same time. And I think that's how a lot of parents cope.