Which of the following Monarchs would you serve?

[Kittyhat]

I thought about adding "representative" to my paraphrase of Churchill but I thought to myself nah no one is going to be that petty. I guess Kittyhat proved me wrong.

What an extraordinarily ironic use of the word "petty."

[Castel]

You mean our lovely corporate oligarchy masquerading as a republic that calls itself a democracy?

Well, I'm sure we're all feeling terribly "represented." I know I am. ;)

America having a crappy democracy wasn't your original point though.

Pity we have no way of knowing since no one on the planet has ever lived in a democracy, despite the word being whored about constantly.

Something else completely. Are you claiming that there's never been a non-subverted democracy.

[butterbumps!]

Con games always work this way. The best cons make their marks think they (the con artists) are the stupid ones. They also look obvious in hindsight, causing the marks to wonder how they could have been "so stupid."

In fact, many people on these forums who imagine they're smarter than that would likely be very easy prey for such a con job, especially since they think they're smarter than that.

I can say with full sincerity that if it were me raising an army of Unsullied for purchase, I would make it a rule, for example, not to sell them all at once, make a "safety button" so that they could never be immediately turned against me, and to make sure that if it was a dragon I was purchasing, that it came contained in a metal container and not liable to attack me..... Overall, I'd say that the Slave Masters of Astapor were on the stupid side of the sliding stupidity scale.

[Kittyhat]

America having a crappy democracy wasn't your original point though.

I'm not sure I have a point I care much about here. I was mostly just bitching about my lousy government while, apparently, derailing the thread again.

Hm. <_<

Something else completely. Are you claiming that there's never been a non-subverted democracy.

You'd have to have the democracy first. Republics have gotten subverted the hell out of, though! :thumbsup:

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Renly with Rob as his hand. Renly for his politics and Rob for his military prowess. Obviously this would never happen but both would be decent men to serve under.

I really wanted them to join forces when I first read ACoK and start a new Baratheon/Stark team, although deep down I knew it wasn't going to happen. :crying:

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I can say with full sincerity that if it were me raising an army of Unsullied for purchase, I would make it a rule, for example, not to sell them all at once, make a "safety button" so that they could never be immediately turned against me, and to make sure that if it was a dragon I was purchasing, that it came contained in a metal container and not liable to attack me..... Overall, I'd say that the Slave Masters of Astapor were on the stupid side of the sliding stupidity scale.

Yes, this. I don't understand why they didn't include a little "I, Robot" type directives.

"Rule 1: Do not ever, under any circumstances, turn on the masters or citizens of Astapor. Rule 2: Do whatever your buyer tells you to do, unless it conflicts with Rule 1."

etc.

Otherwise, anyone and their mother could buy Unsullied and turn them on Astapor at some point. Sure, Astapor would have other Unsullied with which to defend themselves, but why take the risk of unnecessary losses? I get that their eyes were bigger than their stomachs, but turning the Unsullied over before Drogon had been firmly taken into hand or even removed from the area entirely was incredibly dumb.

[Nymphetamine]

Stannis.

[Howling Mad]

What an extraordinarily ironic use of the word "petty."

quite ;)

[StannisBamfatheon]

Sometimes the truth hurts.

It speaks to talent. If a highly trained warrior cleans house, it's impressive but not that impressive. If a noob who picks up a sword for the first time does the same thing, it's extraordinary.

Not hating on their skill, but they're kinda dead, and their victories all happened "off-screen" anyway.

Mostly, yeah. The best thing about Stannis in battle is Melisandre.

That's nice off-screen stuff. What's he done lately?

Ditto. What's he done lately?

LOL. Dany won chiefly due to her ploys. Robb fought armies (and well, it must be said); Dany neutered armies before battle was even joined, which is a higher art of warfare. And she did it without the benefit of training, which Robb had.

Dany has proven quite skillful at undoing opposing armies through clever treachery.

In all serious have you read ASOIAF? Do you really think the battle of castle black happened off screen? Cause Stannis riding to the aid of the Night's watch totally happened in ASOS, it's right there in the text. And when did Dany ONCE pick up a sword? There's a reason Stannis fans outnumber Dany fans about 5 to 1 on this board, Stannis is actually likeable where as Dany is a petulant brat running Meereen into the ground.

[Faint]

I'm surprised so many have chosen Robb. If there is one thing we've learned in this series, is that following him is a one way path to getting killed or imprisoned (and all because he can't keep his libido under control).

[StannisBamfatheon]

I'm surprised so many have chosen Robb. If there is one thing we've learned in this series, is that following him is a one way path to getting killed or imprisoned (and all because he can't keep his libido under control).

I would have followed Robb to the ends of the earth, he was my brother, my captain, my king.

[Faint]

I would have followed Robb to the ends of the earth, he was my brother, my captain, my king.

Great military general, terrible king.

[Snowborn]

I'd choose Robb, the guy was able to inspire a great deal of loyalty on his followers, or Daenerys, as she seems to really care for her people.

[StannisBamfatheon]

Great military general, terrible king.

Ehh I mean the Northern lords seemed to like him okay except for the treacherous fucks the Boltons. People call Robb a "terrible king" cause he made two mistakes, trusting a friend and falling for a girl, something every 16 year old boy has done. Something I've done. He just paid for his mistakes dearly and unjustly and for that he's called a fool or a bad ruler. I'd rather support somebody honorable and just like Robb who may be a bit naive then throw my loyalty behind someone treacherous who "knows how to play the game" like Varys, Littlefinger, Cersei, etc.... I would have fought with Robb until he was King in the North and Joffrey's head rested on a spike or die in the attempt.

[SerStinger]

If I may add my own two cents in the discussion, I do believe that Dany is a great leader, because a great leader is not one who wins, but the one who never compromises his/her ideals. Everything that put Dany into problem was the honorable choice and therefore it was the right choice. If you're killed, it doesn't matter, because in the end your death will serve as an insipration to others.

[Faint]

Not in the mood for a long winded discussion that has already seen extended play all across this board but honorable kings do not break their marriage pacts. Just think, the Frey marriage agreement was the the very first agreement that Robb entered into as king and he broke it.

People talk about nobody ever believing Daenerys again after she broke her promise to the slavers, imagine what they would have thought of Robb had he survived. His word was shit from that point forward. Of course, since he isn't Daenerys, he'll never be called out on it.

[Dr. Pepper]

If I may add my own two cents in the discussion, I do believe that Dany is a great leader, because a great leader is not one who wins, but the one who never compromises his/her ideals. Everything that put Dany into problem was the honorable choice and therefore it was the right choice. If you're killed, it doesn't matter, because in the end your death will serve as an insipration to others.

Say what? She is anti-slavery with a slave army and slave servants. Anti-torture and then tortures people. The woman compromises her ideals quite frequently. I would certainly prefer a leader who changes when they realize they are doing it wrong. I mean, what if you were being led by someone who thought an entire race of people should be exterminated and they never once change or compromise? Does that mean the leader is great and honorable and will serve as an inspiration when he dies?

___________

I think the reason many critique Dany so harshly is because we can see that she has potential. Her ignorance of just about everything negatively impacts everything she does. She isn't inherently stupid like Cersei or Victarion. She can be educated and she can be taught to think critically and if she gets rid of her blood of the dragon bullshit and the dragons themselves, I think she has the potential to do great things. The reason people offer fair and accurate criticism is usually because they want them to do better. No one says, "Oh Ramsay was stupid and should have just punched Theon in the face instead of flaying and (possibly) castrating him" because we know his sadism is unchanging. All of this crap about how Dany is such a good, amazing, kind-hearted leader is frankly ridiculous. She could be, but at this point, she isn't. It's not character hating to acknowledge that.

[SerBrightflame]

Why all the hate for Daenerys? She is rightful Queen of the Seven Kingdoms! Robb is a shit king, and he deserved to die. And Stannis is always carrying on about his "rightful claim". Daenerys Stormborn is queen, and the last dragon!

[SerStinger]

I'm juding her by my own standards, not the standards of the time, or even her own standards. I don't think Rob was wrong in breaking the stupid pact and nor would be Dany, although if I remember correctly she never did break her pact. She made a call between marrying and going to war, and sacrificed herself rather than her people by choosing to marry. I would have advised her against it, but her choice is repsectable because she's for people. She never once thought of things selfishly, she just did them because she thought they were the right choices.

I mean, what if you were being led by someone who thought an entire race of people should be exterminated and they never once change or compromise? Does that mean the leader is great and honorable and will serve as an inspiration when he dies?

___________

I think the reason many critique Dany so harshly is because we can see that she has potential. Her ignorance of just about everything negatively impacts everything she does. She isn't inherently stupid like Cersei or Victarion. She can be educated and she can be taught to think critically and if she gets rid of her blood of the dragon bullshit and the dragons themselves, I think she has the potential to do great things. The reason people offer fair and accurate criticism is usually because they want them to do better. No one says, "Oh Ramsay was stupid and should have just punched Theon in the face instead of flaying and (possibly) castrating him" because we know his sadism is unchanging. All of this crap about how Dany is such a good, amazing, kind-hearted leader is frankly ridiculous. She could be, but at this point, she isn't. It's not character hating to acknowledge that.

Well to you first point... he would be a great EVIL leader. His death would inspire evil people as well. I would never follow such a person, obviously.

And I get it where you come from. Dany makes many mistakes, you're right. I think this is a sign of GRRM's geat writing though. Because he refuses to make Dany into an impossibly good character. She's an idealist, her heart is pure, her decisions are moral, and therefore I am willing to support her and fight for her, despite her many MANy flaws that you point to.

[Northern-She-Wolf]

Renly, and Robb I did not like him that much but I thought he made somewhat of a good king except the marrying Jeyne and causing him to break the alliance with the Freys which was a bad move.