Which of the following Monarchs would you serve?

[Jamie Lannister]

Euron, but I'd need to curry his favour and join his crew.

His "gang," that is, not the Silence's crew. I like my tongue.

[thewingedwolf]

I mean out of all of them so that includes Robert, Viserys, Joffrey, Stannis, Renly, Robb, Balon, Mance Rayder, Dany, Tommen, Euron and Aegon.

Personally if I had to choose one it would either be Renly (seemed to have the interests of the people at heart) or Dany (good leadership and has an ability to inspire loyalty).

Renly - I think he would have made the best King

Robb - He would have needed some good advice other than "King of the North"

Robert - I like wine and war stories

I would never serve the Targs or anyone else

[Chaircat Meow]

Well, I know I personally assembled an army out of nothing and conquered at least three cities by the time I was 13, chiefly using my own strategems and ploys that I made up on the fly with no training or experience. Most folks do. So maybe you're right.

Consider the city, the types of sick, evil, twisted scum ... ahem ... people ... who've been in control of it for so long. And I did say she stumbled politically, especially in second-guessing herself and trying to make peace with them. She's not perfect by any stretch of the imagination.

Sorry, I call shennanigans on this. It's a BS argument, one that could be used to similarly dismiss any character in the series. "His/her opponents were inept."

I'm done with that one. I've reached the point that I don't even consider it an argument worthy of acknowledgement.

Well, yes, that's an issue. I guess her story would be pretty boring if it didn't contain any challenges or ever force her to make any difficult decisions (*cough*Jon*cough*), wouldn't it?

I think Butterbumps has the right of this but I thought I'd chime in.

I don't recall Dany showed any military ability in Storm. Most of the time she just followed Ser Jorah's advice (not that this is a criticism, she was right to trust on him on things like this). Nevertheless, she needed to ask whether her force could defeat a Yunkish army that had already been described as notably inferior to her own. That isn't someone with any grasp of warfare.

She was just applying massively superior forces against inferior opponents ever since she took over the unsullied in Astapor.

Gaining that army was her sole stroke of brilliance. I tended to view her actions in Astapor as demonstrating very considerable intelligence and daring, especially for one so young, but also a fair dose of naivety. As I recall she never even consulted anyone about her plan, trusting it would work when she didn't have a very good grasp of the culture or the even the nature of the unsullied. True, she used what information she did have well, but I doubt a more mature leader would have behaved as recklessly as she did. It seemed like one of those plans that ought not to have worked but just did, as every so often those kind of plans do.

It was only a viable option because she had birthed dragons too and how many cities just happen to have very powerful armies up for sale and weak neighbours ripe for conquest?

I don't want this to come across as sounding as though I don't think Dany is pretty impressive as a ruler for a 15 year old but she really isn't a genius by any stretch of the imagination. Like most other leaders in the books she's handled some situations very well and been pretty mediocre the rest of the time (i.e. like Robb Stark).

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Well, yes, that's an issue. I guess her story would be pretty boring if it didn't contain any challenges or ever force her to make any difficult decisions (*cough*Jon*cough*), wouldn't it?

Here's a perfect example of you taking a statement out of context. Butterbumps never insinuated that Dany didn't need challenges in her story arc. The statement was in reference to Dany not being able to fully control her dragons, which puts her people in danger. That is a valid argument when it comes to Dany being a ruler.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Gaining that army was her sole stroke of brilliance. I tended to view her actions in Astapor as demonstrating very considerable intelligence and daring, especially for one so young, but also a fair dose of naivety. As I recall she never even consulted anyone about her plan, trusting it would work when she didn't have a very good grasp of the culture or the even the nature of the unsullied. True, she used what information she did have well, but I doubt a more mature leader would have behaved as recklessly as she did. It seemed like one of those plans that ought not to have worked but just did, as every so often those kind of plans do.

I'll give Dany credit on the plan to gain the Unsullied, but again that was also initially Jorah's idea.

I knew were she was going as I read her questions concerning the Unsullied to the former slave girl, and it was quite genius of Dany. If she had told anyone they would have put doubts in her mind, so I was cool with it.

[butterbumps!]

Gaining that army was her sole stroke of brilliance. I tended to view her actions in Astapor as demonstrating very considerable intelligence and daring, especially for one so young, but also a fair dose of naivety. As I recall she never even consulted anyone about her plan, trusting it would work when she didn't have a very good grasp of the culture or the even the nature of the unsullied. True, she used what information she did have well, but I doubt a more mature leader would have behaved as recklessly as she did. It seemed like one of those plans that ought not to have worked but just did, as every so often those kind of plans do.

I pretty much agree. On subsequent re-reads I've been less enamored with her decision to take the Unsullied the way she had, but that's a more debatable position (I think it has weakened her credibility and ability to gain allies/ financing; I should also note, though, that I take the Meereen plot as a "headlining" event on its own, so for me I see the way the Unsullied were purchased to hurt her Meereen campaign, but it might have been a good move if she'd gone to Westeros straight away).

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I'll give Dany credit on the plan to gain the Unsullied, but again that was also initially Jorah's idea.

I knew were she was going as I read her questions concerning the Unsullied to the former slave girl, and it was quite genius of Dany. If she had told anyone they would have put doubts in her mind, so I was cool with it.

The Unsullied thing is something that looks really cool and badass on a first read, but falls apart under scrutiny. Namely, it relies on the Astapori to be almost preternaturally stupid. That makes me side-eye it as being believable within the story. In terms of plot, though, it means that no one in that region will ever take Dany's word for anything ever again. Her word is worth dirt at this point, because she'll always be the person who cheated her way to an army (clever though it may have been, but again, it hinges on other people's idiocy). This is all fine and well and good if you subscribe to a pedestrian view of Slaver's Bay as the land of comic book villainy — "Fuck what they think, who cares, evil slave owners are evil, rah!" — but Dany might very easily arrive at a point when she needs to negotiate with these people (she's already sort of reached it, with Yunkai sitting outside her gates) and in that case, her crotch-grabbing BAMF moment might not look so good in hindsight.

ETA: I also find it cheap that she can say that the Unsullied aren't slaves, but can still command the blind, automaton-like loyalty and obedience of them just as though they were. She basically gets a slave army while also getting the warm and fuzzy feeling of knowing that they're technically not slaves. (Does Dany pay her people? Do they have a dental plan? Vacation time?)

[Chaircat Meow]

I pretty much agree. On subsequent re-reads I've been less enamored with her decision to take the Unsullied the way she had, but that's a more debatable position (I think it has weakened her credibility and ability to gain allies/ financing; I should also note, though, that I take the Meereen plot as a "headlining" event on its own, so for me I see the way the Unsullied were purchased to hurt her Meereen campaign, but it might have been a good move if she'd gone to Westeros straight away).

Your post rather suggests that I framed Dany's 'brilliance' in an overly flattering way.

She was offered the army as a straight up trade for Drogon, so gaining 9,000 or so first rate soldiers was actually no difficulty at all. Moreover, it is this army that hands her slaver's bay, without very much more input from her saving basic competence (Viserys would have found some way to snarl things up).

It was keeping Drogon that was the 'brilliance.' She didn't even need to set the unsullied on the Astapori then and there, she could have assembled them outside the city or something, made sure of their loyalty and sent picked battalions to take Drogon back. The actual plan was cool but unnecessarily risky.

I take it you think she could have taken Drogon back through legal means or perhaps you think she could have left him in Astapor for a time? Or that the unsullied are a mistake anyway?

[Faint]

Daenerys Targaryen and/or Jon Targaryen or whoever else controls the dragons. You don't want to be on the side that has no dragons.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Or that the unsullied are a mistake anyway?

I think the entire exercise was ill-advised. She could have bought sellsword services, or even sent emissaries to Westeros to make contacts on the hush hush. And yes, she went to Astapor to get an army, not to free slaves. Yes she ended up freeing them, after seeing what they were put through — and yes, that was a "good" thing — but that also coincided with her being able to forgo paying for them. Considering that by freeing them, she got out of paying for them and got to keep them anyway (as I said above, they're not slaves in name but in most other respects), this action, while good, is not immediately evident as some monumental sacrifice or hardship on her part. Quite the opposite, in fact. And unlike sellsword companies, which sustain themselves on their fees, the Unsullied had no way of maintaining themselves or paying for their own upkeep, which would have become clear after the dust settled. That fell to Dany, and I still have no good idea how she's feeding her people and I'm not sure she does either.

You can also look at the Sons of the Harpy campaign to see that they're pretty much useless against an insurgency and in asymmetrical warfare. I think it's interesting that the story Dany hears about the successful Unsullied in Qohor involves them defending the city against a siege. In fact, their strong suit seems to be as guards and sentries. But that's the opposite of how she would make use of them in Westeros.

[butterbumps!]

Your post rather suggests that I framed Dany's 'brilliance' in an overly flattering way.

She was offered the army as a straight up trade for Drogon, so gaining 9,000 or so first rate soldiers was actually no difficulty at all. Moreover, it is this army that hands her slaver's bay, without very much more input from her saving basic competence (Viserys would have found some way to snarl things up).

It was keeping Drogon that was the 'brilliance.' She didn't even need to set the unsullied on the Astapori then and there, she could have assembled them outside the city or something, made sure of their loyalty and sent picked battalions to take Drogon back. The actual plan was cool but unnecessarily risky.

I take it you think she could have taken Drogon back through legal means or perhaps you think she could have left him in Astapor for a time? Or that the unsullied are a mistake anyway?

Oh sorry, I'd liked your post, but I should have said I was building off of it rather than challenging any of it. I'd just wanted to add to what you said as a starting point for expressing my feelings about the Unsullied transaction-- that I think it was a mistake to use any sort of treachery in the enterprise if she were to be staying in that region; I think all the treachery involved, while "clever" has undermined her credibility. It would be less of a "mistake" if she hadn't subsequently razed the region and attempt to rule, since she is now surrounded on all sides by enemies, enemies within and no chance of allies (aside from the Lamb Men who can't provide military aid).

I'm not sure if it would have been possible to keep Drogon but not have the Unsullied simultaneously turn on the people or employing "Dracarys."

[Chaircat Meow]

Oh sorry, I'd liked your post, but I should have said I was building off of it rather than challenging any of it. I'd just wanted to add to what you said as a starting point for expressing my feelings about the Unsullied transaction-- that I think it was a mistake to use any sort of treachery in the enterprise if she were to be staying in that region; I think all the treachery involved, while "clever" has undermined her credibility. It would be less of a "mistake" if she hadn't subsequently razed the region and attempt to rule, since she is now surrounded on all sides by enemies, enemies within and no chance of allies (aside from the Lamb Men who can't provide military aid).

I'm not sure if it would have been possible to keep Drogon but not have the Unsullied simultaneously turn on the people or employing "Dracarys."

Oh, no worries. I didn't take your post as criticism!!! I just must have expressed myself a bit oddly in that first sentence.

I think my issue was with the idea that turning on the slavers had to be simultaneous with handing over Drogon in order to get him back. As I read it the big risk with the plan was that the unsullied would obey the Astapori instead of Dany despite the assurances to the contrary. Taking her new army in hand first might have been more sensible unless the Astapori intended Drogon to leave the city in days or weeks. Maybe it's a small point.

I agree it was a PR disaster, or became one, when she decided to stick around, rather than head to Pentos or somewhere near Westeros, as in the original plan.

[Ser Joe the Unknighted]

I'd want to serve under people who were not just good leaders, but someone i could trust and who wasn't a monsterous human being, I'd serve under Robb, Jon, Dany or Mance, but since I'd also lie to win I'd pick Dany

[Kittyhat]

Gaining that army was her sole stroke of brilliance.

... along with deceiving Yunkai, gaining the sellswords, thinking of turning a ship into a battering ram, and on and on.

Sole stroke? Sorry, no.

Look, the lines on this are pretty much drawn, and I don't think we really need to go down this same old road again. It's all the same collection of nonsense anyway (Daenerys doesn't deserve credit for anything she did, all of her opponents were stupid, etc.), and if you haven't been convinced to let those go by now, it's not likely to happen in this thread either. Needless to say, those same tired arguments aren't going to be any more convincing to me this time than they were the other 300 times, either.

We're getting off-topic with this. As I acknowledged before, military aptitude is not a major component of being a good ruler anyway. So let's ... just ... get back to the topic.

[Chaircat Meow]

I think the entire exercise was ill-advised. She could have bought sellsword services, or even sent emissaries to Westeros to make contacts on the hush hush. And yes, she went to Astapor to get an army, not to free slaves. Yes she ended up freeing them, after seeing what they were put through — and yes, that was a "good" thing — but that also coincided with her being able to forgo paying for them. Considering that by freeing them, she got out of paying for them and got to keep them anyway (as I said above, they're not slaves in name but in most other respects), this action, while good, is not immediately evident as some monumental sacrifice or hardship on her part. Quite the opposite, in fact. And unlike sellsword companies, which sustain themselves on their fees, the Unsullied had no way of maintaining themselves or paying for their own upkeep, which would have become clear after the dust settled. That fell to Dany, and I still have no good idea how she's feeding her people and I'm not sure she does either.

You can also look at the Sons of the Harpy campaign to see that they're pretty much useless against an insurgency and in asymmetrical warfare. I think it's interesting that the story Dany hears about the successful Unsullied in Qohor involves them defending the city against a siege. In fact, their strong suit seems to be as guards and sentries. But that's the opposite of how she would make use of them in Westeros.

I thought Jorah described them as being very effective on the battlefield, in formation, against horsemen.

I don't think they are just guards and sentries.

I'm not sure what use Dany does have for forces good at receiving cavalry charges in westeros though, if she is counting on her dragons being grown up by the time an invasion is launched. The field of fire wasn't described as a triumph of combined arms.

Agree with the rest of the post.

[Chaircat Meow]

... along with deceiving Yunkai, gaining the sellswords, thinking of turning a ship into a battering ram, and on and on.

Sole stroke? Sorry, no.

Look, the lines on this are pretty much drawn, and I don't think we really need to go down this same old road again. It's all the same collection of nonsense anyway (Daenerys doesn't deserve credit for anything she did, all of her opponents were stupid, etc.), and if you haven't been convinced to let those go by now, it's not likely to happen in this thread either. Needless to say, those same tired arguments aren't going to be any more convincing to me this time than they were the other 300 times, either.

We're getting off-topic with this. As I acknowledged before, military aptitude is not a major component of being a good ruler anyway. So let's ... just ... get back to the topic.

Ok, fine.

But it must be obvious why people are not convinced that using wood to build siege engines and bribing companies that fight for gold to switch sides when their own force was inferior to her own and likely to lose horribly are marks of military genius.

[Lady of Long Lake]

Mance

If Stannis parted ways with Mel and Selyse and their crazy Red Demon God, I would proudly serve him too.

[Maheshfunky]

Screw the kings I'm pledging to the Queen of Thorns!

Possilby Arianne and her Sand snakes and Mycella if she ever comes of age.

Tyrion and Daenerys make the ultimate team. Actually Tommon and Margery are pretty close, if Cersei or Varys hadnt interupted. I hope Gemma gets the regency now dont think she would accept or be offered though she be Olenna 2

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

The Unsullied thing is something that looks really cool and badass on a first read, but falls apart under scrutiny. Namely, it relies on the Astapori to be almost preternaturally stupid.

I have yet to do a re-read, but I remember thinking the Astapori had to be quite dumb the first time I read that story-line. Considering their opinions of Dany, it was obvious that they considered her to be the dumb one, which was also odd to me. A young girl shows up holding the only three (known) living dragons in the world, and you think she's a "dumb whore." :unsure:

That makes me side-eye it as being believable within the story. In terms of plot, though, it means that no one in that region will ever take Dany's word for anything ever again. Her word is worth dirt at this point, because she'll always be the person who cheated her way to an army (clever though it may have been, but again, it hinges on other people's idiocy). This is all fine and well and good if you subscribe to a pedestrian view of Slaver's Bay as the land of comic book villainy — "Fuck what they think, who cares, evil slave owners are evil, rah!" — but Dany might very easily arrive at a point when she needs to negotiate with these people (she's already sort of reached it, with Yunkai sitting outside her gates) and in that case, her crotch-grabbing BAMF moment might not look so good in hindsight.

This did cross my mind, but I thought I was being overly sensitive. :laugh:

ETA: I also find it cheap that she can say that the Unsullied aren't slaves, but can still command the blind, automaton-like loyalty and obedience of them just as though they were. She basically gets a slave army while also getting the warm and fuzzy feeling of knowing that they're technically not slaves. (Does Dany pay her people? Do they have a dental plan? Vacation time?)

:agree: This also bothered me, but once again I thought I was being overly sensitive.

[Kittyhat]

I have yet to do a re-read, but I remember thinking the Astapori had to be quite dumb the first time I read that story-line. Considering their opinions of Dany, it was obvious that they considered her to be the dumb one, which was also odd to me. A young girl shows up holding the only three (known) living dragons in the world, and you think she's a "dumb whore." :unsure:

Con games always work this way. The best cons make their marks think they (the con artists) are the stupid ones. They also look obvious in hindsight, causing the marks to wonder how they could have been "so stupid."

In fact, many people on these forums who imagine they're smarter than that would likely be very easy prey for such a con job, especially since they think they're smarter than that.