Anders Breivik found sane and sentenced to maximum term of detention

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

To be fair as most people here are able to speak English I suspect they have a better chance of learning more about an issue in the US if they're interested than those of us who don't speak Norwegian have on this subject.

I actually don't think that matters very much. In the U.S., you can rarely tell everything about the actual application of a law simply by reading the text. There is always case law, underlying constitutional restrictions, and other factors that can lead to results different from what folks might assume simply by reading the text of the law itself. People may not want to concede that, but it is true. It seems we're really saying the same thing here with respect to Norway.

However, just because most of us may lack the expertise to predict results under the law of a different country does not mean that discussion regarding some general principles raised by legal questions cannot be had.

I don't know how, exactly, Norwegian law works in this instance. But I do know that Norwegian preventative detention law recognizes the possibility of imprisonment for life for people who have not committed a capital crime, or rape. You can debate the ethics of that even if you don't know enough to debate the procedure.

[RWHamel]

But the point was entirely about Anders Breivik. It was that we all, broadly, agree that he should be locked up for the remainder of his life: and that it is difficult for a non-Norwegian to really judge how likely it is that he will be, because of the unusual sentencing structure.

Sure, come up with a Norwegian major case were a criminal has been locked up longer than 21 years in recent history. Because judging by what happened with Nesset, I would say the expectation would be a lot less. That insight shouldn't require any special nationality. However as someone who lives in the United States, it is very unlikely that I will have to live with the consequences.

[RWHamel]

???? Am I on punk'd?

Maybe.

[RWHamel]

I find it mildly amusing that the poster arguing for greater punishment and retribution in sentencing is called Bronson

I think he means this Bronson. But I could be wrong.

[Bronson]

We'll have to wait 21 years to see what they do with Anders. When his parole comes up I would imagine they will remind him of his words in court.

[ljkeane]

However, just because most of us may lack the expertise to predict results under the law of a different country does not mean that discussion regarding some general principles raised by legal questions cannot be had.

Sure I think that's fair enough, but RWHamel is predicting the results based on, unless he actually does speak Norwegian, a fairly limited amount of information.

[Bronson]

I think he means this Bronson. But I could be wrong.

I picked the name out of the blue.

[Galactus]

I actually don't think that matters very much. In the U.S., you can rarely tell everything about the actual application of a law simply by reading the text. There is always case law, underlying constitutional restrictions, and other factors that can lead to results different from what folks might assume simply by reading the text of the law itself. People may not want to concede that, but it is true. It seems we're really saying the same thing here with respect to Norway.

However, just because most of us may lack the expertise to predict results under the law of a different country does not mean that discussion regarding some general principles raised by legal questions cannot be had.

I don't know how, exactly, Norwegian law works in this instance. But I do know that Norwegian preventative detention law recognizes the possibility of imprisonment for life for people who have not committed a capital crime, or rape. You can debate the ethics of that even if you don't know enough to debate the procedure.

The norwegian law is only applicable in cases that already carry an effective life-sentence. I really don't see the issue here. (basically, there's an option to either give a specific sentence for a particular time, or an undefined sentence, for certain crimes).

[mormont]

Sure, come up with a Norwegian major case were a criminal has been locked up longer than 21 years in recent history.

I can't. But then, I'm the one explaining that like you, I haven't the knowledge to do so.

On the other hand, you could explain what I asked a while back: what is your basis for the expectation that Breivik will be out on parole in ten years? Could you explain to me your understanding of how parole works in Norway, for example, and how you came by that understanding? It was, and is, a fairly straightforward question, but so far you haven't answered it.

[The Iceman of the North]

I don't know how, exactly, Norwegian law works in this instance. But I do know that Norwegian preventative detention law recognizes the possibility of imprisonment for life for people who have not committed a capital crime, or rape. You can debate the ethics of that even if you don't know enough to debate the procedure.

How can you tell that based solely on a quote defining what preventive detention is? Can you give an example of a crime other than "capital crime, or rape" where imprisonment for life is a possibility? You seem to ignore the statues of each individual crime, as well as established precedence, the guidelines and practice when using this for of punishment.

Sure, come up with a Norwegian major case were a criminal has been locked up longer than 21 years in recent history. Because judging by what happened with Nesset, I would say the expectation would be a lot less. That insight shouldn't require any special nationality. However as someone who lives in the United States, it is very unlikely that I will have to live with the consequences.

What you fail to understand is that there haven't been any crimes in modern Norwegian history that even comes close to ABB's crime. Using Nesset as an example is hardly relevant, as there were a different set of rules back then (even if you're ignorant enough to disregard his final years of incarceration.).

But you won't find anyone serving more than 21 years in Norway in recent history simply because 21 years was the maximum sentence until 10 years ago.

ETA: In 2002, Viggo Kristensen was sentenced to 21 years of preventive custody, with a minimum of 10 years for the rape an murder of two 10 year old girls. If he's released within the next couple of years, you might have a point, but I'd be willing to bet a large amount of money that he wont.

[Bronson]

How can you tell that based solely on a quote defining what preventive detention is? Can you give an example of a crime other than "capital crime, or rape" where imprisonment for life is a possibility? You seem to ignore the statues of each individual crime, as well as established precedence, the guidelines and practice when using this for of punishment.

What you fail to understand is that there haven't been any crimes in modern Norwegian history that even comes close to ABB's crime. Using Nesset as an example is hardly relevant, as there were a different set of rules back then (even if you're ignorant enough to disregard his final years of incarceration.).

But you won't find anyone serving more than 21 years in Norway in recent history simply because 21 years was the maximum sentence until 10 years ago.

What was the Maximum prior to 10 years ago?

[RWHamel]

Arnfinn Nesset

During the summer and autumn of 1981, a series of suspicious deaths was uncovered at the nursing home in Orkdal, Sør-Trøndelag where Nesset was working as manager. When questioned by police, Arnfinn Nesset initially confessed to the murders of 27 patients which he claimed to have killed by injecting them with Suxamethonium chloride, a muscle relaxing drug. He was charged with 25 counts of homicide, but later retracted his confession and denied all charges throughout the rest of his five-month long trial.

Nesset, was convicted in March 1983 of poisoning 22 patients with Suxamethonium chloride. He was also convicted of one count of attempted murder and acquitted on two other counts. Nesset may have killed as many as 138 of his patients.

He was sentenced to 21 years in prison, the maximum term available under Norwegian law at the time, to be followed by ten years of preventative detention. However he was released after serving 12 years of this sentence due to good behaviour, and is now reported to be living in an undisclosed location under an assumed name. The chief prosecutor at his trial, Olaf Jakhelln described Nesset as "an ambitious man, who wanted complete control over life and death [of his victims]."

Which was linked to, and talked about in my previous posts. In 1995 Nesset went on probation, and then went to a half-way house until 2004. I don't really know what the conditions are like at a Norwegian half-way house, but I suspect that it is fairly casual.

[The Iceman of the North]

What was the Maximum prior to 10 years ago?

21 years were the maximum 10 years ago. Then they introduced 'preventive detention' which opened up for de facto life in prison.

Which was linked to, and talked about in my previous posts. In 1995 Nesset went on probation, and then went to a half-way house until 2004. I don't really know what the conditions are like at a Norwegian half-way house, but I suspect that it is fairly casual.

That quote is factual wrong. The "half-way" house is not the same as probation.

[RWHamel]

Using Nesset as an example is hardly relevant, as there were a different set of rules back then (even if you're ignorant enough to disregard his final years of incarceration.).

Sure, I'll bite. What were the rules before? What are they now? How did they change? Do you have a link?

I don't agree with you, and at least one other person agrees with me. Whoever wrote the wiki article.

[Bronson]

What was the Maximum prior to 10 years ago?

Nesset very likely would have gotten life without the possibility of parole had he committed his crimes here in the states or sent to a mental hospital.

[RWHamel]

21 years were the maximum 10 years ago. Then they introduced 'preventive detention' which opened up for de facto life in prison.

21 years in prison, the maximum term available under Norwegian law at the time, to be followed by ten years of preventative detention.

Which part of the sentence for Arnfinn Nesset do you keep misreading?

[lacuna]

I took the liberty of making a quick, probably flawed translation about punishment from the web page of the Ministry of Justice.

“Theories on the purpose of punishment is commonly divided into two main categories. According to theories of retribution and penance, the purpose of punishment primarily to fulfill a demand for justice. Such theories are commonly referred to as ‘absolute theories of punishment’.

According to utilitarian theories, it is not in the interest of society to satisfy an absolute demand for justice unless this is gainful of society as a whole. Such theories are categorized as ‘relative theories of punishment’. In Norway, the relative theories are dominant.”

Also:

“The Ministry of Justice feels that the purpose of punishment must be to control/guide* future behaviour, and thus contribute to a society, based on current societal values, that is considered desirable.”

*”Styre” is hard to translate. As you can imagine, it's related to the english word “to steer”.

[Bronson]

I took the liberty of making a quick, probably flawed translation about punishment from the web page of the Ministry of Justice.

“Theories on the purpose of punishment is commonly divided into two main categories. According to theories of retribution and penance, the purpose of punishment primarily to fulfill a demand for justice. Such theories are commonly referred to as ‘absolute theories of punishment’.

According to utilitarian theories, it is not in the interest of society to satisfy an absolute demand for justice unless this is gainful of society as a whole. Such theories are categorized as ‘relative theories of punishment’. In Norway, the relative theories are dominant.”

Also:

“The Ministry of Justice feels that the purpose of punishment must be to control/guide* future behaviour, and thus contribute to a society, based on current societal values, that is considered desirable.”

*”Styre” is hard to translate. As you can imagine, it's related to the english word “to steer”.

Interesting stuff. But a bit bewildering.

[Luzifer's right hand]

Interesting stuff. But a bit bewildering.

Why do you find it bewildering? The system in Norway seems to work quite well. It's one of the safest countries in the world after all.

[RWHamel]

That quote is factual wrong. The "half-way" house is not the same as probation.

I don't agree with you. And of course, anyone who reads this can form their own opinion about it.