Confessions... Say what! v4

[rmholt]

Some people could have learned a thing or two from him when it comes to loving ALL of their family. Yes that's right bastards and all. You don't have to love them, but you don't have to be do damn cold. So cheers to the Late Lord Walder, putting family first no matter their orgin. :cheers:

I do note also that people who might not have been on board with the Red Wedding were not present. So they were allowed to not agree without being judged by the family anyway.

[Florina Laufeyson]

I never got that he cared about any of his family members, just continuing his line.

Arr. But im positive theres plenty of Freys who arent cruel. Roslin seemed a nice girl and Cleos was an oaf but not horrible.

[BranRaven]

I like Bran far more than any other character. Ever since he woke up from his dream after falling and named his wolf Summer I knew this was a great series. I wish GRRM wrote more Bran chapters but I know he's headed somewhere awesome with Bloodraven and co. His paralysis sucks but I'm weirdly not mad at Jaime at all for it....In fact I think Jaime's my second favorite character

[BranRaven]

I do note also that people who might not have been on board with the Red Wedding were not present. So they were allowed to not agree without being judged by the family anyway.

I think the best thing that could happen to the Freys is being completely exiled and setting up a sellsword company or something in the free cities. The name Frey will forever be associated with betrayal and even the good ones like Olyvar, Roslin & Perwyn are doomed because of this.

And I'm ok with it.

[Winter's Ghost]

Arr. But im positive theres plenty of Freys who arent cruel. Roslin seemed a nice girl and Cleos was an oaf but not horrible.

I was just talking about Walder.

[Kittykatknits]

Well, here's my confession, I do admire Walder for his family values. Everyone, bastard, idiot, or halfwit, is welcome in the castle and everyone is on Walder's page as long as he lives. Everyone is part of the Family. As someone (Cersei?) points out, once he dies all the internecine resentments will turn into action.

Some people could have learned a thing or two from him when it comes to loving ALL of their family. Yes that's right bastards and all. You don't have to love them, but you don't have to be do damn cold. So cheers to the Late Lord Walder, putting family first no matter their orgin. :cheers:

I never got that he cared about any of his family members, just continuing his line.

Well, isn't that the point of Walder Frey? He has this massive family that he has used to increase Frey power and influence. Yet, we see none of them care about each other, constant power grabs, no sense of familial love. So, when he dies, I see the Freys imploding due to their sheer number. Their ultimate destruction will be the very thing that Walder Frey used to try and increase his power. Seems very GRRM-like, no?

[Winter's Ghost]

Well, isn't that the point of Walder Frey? He has this massive family that he has used to increase Frey power and influence. Yet, we see none of them care about each other, constant power grabs, no sense of familial love. So, when he dies, I see the Freys imploding due to their sheer number. Their ultimate destruction will be the very thing that Walder Frey used to try and increase his power. Seems very GRRM-like, no?

I agree with this.

[rmholt]

Well, isn't that the point of Walder Frey? He has this massive family that he has used to increase Frey power and influence. Yet, we see none of them care about each other, constant power grabs, no sense of familial love. So, when he dies, I see the Freys imploding due to their sheer number. Their ultimate destruction will be the very thing that Walder Frey used to try and increase his power. Seems very GRRM-like, no?

I dont see that he has really been able to increase Frey power and influence. Emmon Frey was led around by his Lannister wife. He still had Tully as overlord. He cant get anyone to marry his kids. He really is not respected nor admired for courage or smarts or honor. I was just making the point that the Freys stick together no matter what and that is his doing. There's not much to admire about this guy but he did do that.

[rmholt]

I like Bran far more than any other character. Ever since he woke up from his dream after falling and named his wolf Summer I knew this was a great series. I wish GRRM wrote more Bran chapters but I know he's headed somewhere awesome with Bloodraven and co. His paralysis sucks but I'm weirdly not mad at Jaime at all for it....In fact I think Jaime's my second favorite character

Bran was 7 when the series started and it had been summer for 9 years. Just a cool fact.

[RenlyIsNotRight]

I like Bran far more than any other character. Ever since he woke up from his dream after falling and named his wolf Summer I knew this was a great series. I wish GRRM wrote more Bran chapters but I know he's headed somewhere awesome with Bloodraven and co. His paralysis sucks but I'm weirdly not mad at Jaime at all for it....In fact I think Jaime's my second favorite character

I love both Bran and Jaime too. I sometimes feel conflicted but for it but I'd be interested to see if they ever encountered each other whether or not Bran would forgive Jaime, considering how much Jaime has changed and genuinely regrets a lot of the things he did, including throwing Bran out of the Tower.

[Michelle Stark]

I really like Arya; I'm fascinated by her story line, and can't wait to see where her story leads.

I simply love Jon, he's been my favorite since the start. I thought hat he made a lot of wise decisions as LC, because his motivation was to unite with the wildlngs against their common enemy.

I really,really, really wish that Ned had never been executed, and that he had been a better player of the game. If he had done what Renley suggested and seized the children, he could be the Regent even now, with his family safe at Winterfell. Sigh.......

I also like Bran a lot, I can't wait to see how his training turns the battle win the Others on their favor.

I also have grown to care about Jamie and Tyrion, despite the terrible things they have done.

[Liar]

I love both Bran and Jaime too. I sometimes feel conflicted but for it but I'd be interested to see if they ever encountered each other whether or not Bran would forgive Jaime, considering how much Jaime has changed and genuinely regrets a lot of the things he did, including throwing Bran out of the Tower.

I agree, funny that I forgot about the tower incident, I mean I remember but I kind of forgot about that Jaime lol

[Kittykatknits]

I dont see that he has really been able to increase Frey power and influence. Emmon Frey was led around by his Lannister wife. He still had Tully as overlord. He cant get anyone to marry his kids. He really is not respected nor admired for courage or smarts or honor. I was just making the point that the Freys stick together no matter what and that is his doing. There's not much to admire about this guy but he did do that.

That's the point. He has tried to use his large family to increase Frey power and influence and it hasn't worked. I'd also disagree that they stick together no matter what. Emmon and his sons sided with the Lannisters against his family. We've got those that were loyal to Robb. There is also many hints of fighting within the family.

[Field of Asphodel]

Good sweet heart? She abused a lonely child because she was angry at his father? She started a war by taking Tyrion hostage even though she had major evidence to the contrary? She supports Robs decision to back out of the marrige proposal and frees his greatest asset that could have ACTUALLY gotten her daughters back. She just seems so short sighted and selfish. I suppose this may be very human....but i like my fictional characters to aspire towards a tad more :)

I think the thing that chaffs me about Cat is the same issue i have with when Aaron Sorkin (who i love) write woman. He makes this terrific, strong, independant, powerful, beautiful, charcter...then makes her do such foolish things. Just gets me frustrated :)

OK, proper response time. I'm not sure if you're a long time lurker or not but Catelyn has been discussed heatedly a number of times, I trust we've both heard all the most common arguments. In the interest of not totally derailing the thread, I'll explain my take on Catelyn in terms of my reaction to her, which I think is a better way to go than discussing what she did and didn't do via her actions.

Yes, I actually do mean good, sweet heart. I think Catelyn has two distinct sides - a critical/suspicious/practical/judgmental side, and a motherly, affectionate side, i.e. the "good, sweet heart" side. The first is the one that's most obvious, the one I suspect grates on most people. This is the Southern Tully lady in her, the one that understands that people can be two-faced, conniving, and ambitious, and is naturally suspicious. It's also the side of her that believes that rising to one's role as a man or a woman is a sign of maturity as well as one's duty (see how she watched Robb's response when she told him about the Frey marriage she'd arranged for him). This side of her recognizes Cersei for the snake that she is, and appraises her sons/brother's wives hips, 'cause she knows that in her world, these little details become important. It's a bit off-putting, but Catelyn gets this shit; she's as into love and romance as the next person, but she acknowledges (and admittedly, perpetuates) the transactional reality of such things as marriage, birth, and inheritance in Westeros, and to some extent, I respect that. She's not horrible about it either. She makes notes of various things, but for example her thoughts pertaining to Roslin and her poor birthing hips are empathetic as well as critical in tone ("childbirth will go hard on her"). She's not mean about it at all.

You mention Jon, which is a big sticking point for most people. I accept that her behavior was unkind and worthy of criticism, but I don't think it makes her a reprehensible human being. "Abused" is a loaded, nonspecific term. In the text, we learn that she ignored Jon. We have one clear example of her saying something unkind to Jon, but it occurs in a moment of intense grief (I'll tell you, her reaction is not that typical) after which she slept for four days. She was on the verge of a breakdown. I think her words were unfortunate, but not unforgivable given the mitigating factors. Her overall behavior toward Jon may qualify as emotional abuse, but at low, not-quite-but-close-to-passive level. I think some people imagine that she followed him around giving him sour looks and hurling insults at him, but I didn’t read her behavior that way. A Westerosi wife has to put up with a lot, but Catelyn put her foot down on this issue, but Ned for reasons of his won put his foot down too, and three people paid the price. Ultimately, I think the Jon/Catelyn dynamic works in many ways. It not only enriches Catelyn’s characterization by clearly defines the types of slights she’ll tolerate and the types she can’t, it also makes it absolutely clear that Ned paid a price for keeping his promise to his sister (I believe). It's also imperative for story purposes that Jon feel he can't go home again after he signs up with the Watch; Catelyn's behavior and her outburst serve within the story to set that up. In general, I think Catelyn’s behavior toward Jon is the exception, not the rule.

As has been said by others, she didn't support Robb's decision to back out of the marriage proposal. She was shocked and dismayed when Robb told her. She released Jaime only after Robb made it clear that he thought a captured Jaime was more valuable than Sansa and Arya combined. Kidnapping Tyrion wasn’t a great move, but she tried to avoid it, and felt backed into a corner when she did it. She didn’t think the knife thing through completely, true. What evidence do you think she had that vindicated Tyrion? I don’t really follow you there.

But back to Catelyn’s good-heartedness. Though we often see Catelyn’s judgmental side, its almost always ameliorated by kindness and empathy in short order. Catelyn is not pleased to note that Mya Stone is a bastard, but she notes Mya’s spunky personality too and then feels sympathy for the girl when she realizes she won’t be allowed to marry the boy she loves because of her birth. Her initial response to Brienne is how unfortunate, an ugly woman. But quickly she realizes the others are mocking her and her protective instincts kick in. Her obvious devotion to Renly only deepens this empathy. When Brienne’s life is threatened, Catelyn guides her to safety, and though initially disapproving, in time she actually validates Brienne’s unconventional occupation by swearing Brienne into her service. We see Catelyn repeatedly comforting and guiding boys and girls, and so I say she has a good sweet heart.

This turned out far longer than I intended, I apologize if I much of it wasn’t necessary for our discussion.

[Queen Cersei I]

--I don't think Cersei cuckolding her husband and having the children of another man was evil. Honestly, I could care less if the kids are legitimate, though this issue appears to be a "moral event horizen" for GRRM.

--I think Tyrion is morally worse than Jaime at this point.

--I think that the existence of the children of the forest (and the description of these magical elf...thingies) is downright embarrassingly bad writing.

--I like Sybell Spycer. "An ambitious bitch"? Good for her.

--I am quickly tiring of the word "whore" being used as the ultimate, most degrading insult for women in these books.

--I liked Jaime a thousand times better in ASOS than I did in AFFC and ADWD.

[The Crow in a White Sea]

I wanted Jon Snow to die and so hes watch would end, and then get revived by Mel becoming Azor Ahai reborn and later discovers he is a Targ.

[Peko]

--I think that the existence of the children of the forest (and the description of these magical elf...thingies) is downright embarrassingly bad writing.

I'm curious, what's your stance on the dragons? Because I think they're substantially greater misfits in the ASoIaF universe than the children and white walkers.

[Jolene Brown]

The children of the forest seem more "twee" than the dragons somehow. I know it's a source of frustration for a lot of people, but to me what makes the dragons work is the fact that five books in, Dany still has fairly little control of them and they roast good guys like Quentyn, and possibly children! I do hope we lose 2 of the 3, if not all, by the end of the series though.

[Liar]

I stared at this line for a good 15 minutes, just staring, not reading:

His axe took her in the back of the head.

After that I put the book down for a while, had a smoke, looked at the ceiling, at the wall, thinking of alternate uses for large books. When I finished the third cigarette I said: fuck this, and kept reading.

It was worse than the previous chapter because (here is my second confession) I kind of like that Catelyn died, yes it was shocking with Robb whom I loved but Cat's death cushioned it.

But that line, I seriously considered quitting. When I saw later the title "Arya" again, that was one of the most happy moments of my asoiaf experience.

[Peko]

The children of the forest seem more "twee" than the dragons somehow. I know it's a source of frustration for a lot of people, but to me what makes the dragons work is the fact that five books in, Dany still has fairly little control of them and they roast good guys like Quentyn, and possibly children! I do hope we lose 2 of the 3, if not all, by the end of the series though.

I agree that the dragons have worked fine so far, mainly because Dany hasn't really been able to use them yet. My skepticism stems from Aegon's Conquest, using just three dragons to lay opposing armies to waste. Judging from that alone, the suggestion arises that dragons are essentially unchecked in the natural order of things. I know that the absolute last thing I want to see in the end of the series is Dany leading an Aegon's Conquest v2.0.

That being said, I'm confident GRRM has a nice twist that puts this unease of mine (and many others) to rest. The recent info of Torrhen Stark's brother, Brandon Snow, preparing for the assassination of Aegon's dragons with weirwood arrows before Torrhen bent the knee, suggests that there indeed may be a weakness we don't know of yet, and that is particularly reassuring.