Confessions... Say what! v4

[Khal GoGo]

I want the Lannisters to win the game of thrones, purely so Tommen can stay on the throne. I just love the kid. Also, I hated Rhaegar Frey just for being called Rhaegar more than anything else and I don't think Cersei is actually a bad person.

[Where Boars Glow]

I never got that he cared about any of his family members, just continuing his line.

He does quite a bit to support and find a place for everyone of his blood. He shows this again and again far beyond just carying on his line.

Yet he must die....many painful deaths :)

[Saint Arya]

1. I don't like Stannis. He's says funny things but I just don't like him.

2. I think the wrong man cane back from the Trident.

3. I want Sansa to marry some young, romantic guy and get to be happy, no game of thrones for her.

4. I want Arya and Gendry together. And I don't want Arya to be a FM.

5. I don't care if Dany makes it to Westeros or not.

[Where Boars Glow]

OK, proper response time. I'm not sure if you're a long time lurker or not but Catelyn has been discussed heatedly a number of times, I trust we've both heard all the most common arguments. In the interest of not totally derailing the thread, I'll explain my take on Catelyn in terms of my reaction to her, which I think is a better way to go than discussing what she did and didn't do via her actions.

Yes, I actually do mean good, sweet heart. I think Catelyn has two distinct sides - a critical/suspicious/practical/judgmental side, and a motherly, affectionate side, i.e. the "good, sweet heart" side. The first is the one that's most obvious, the one I suspect grates on most people. This is the Southern Tully lady in her, the one that understands that people can be two-faced, conniving, and ambitious, and is naturally suspicious. It's also the side of her that believes that rising to one's role as a man or a woman is a sign of maturity as well as one's duty (see how she watched Robb's response when she told him about the Frey marriage she'd arranged for him). This side of her recognizes Cersei for the snake that she is, and appraises her sons/brother's wives hips, 'cause she knows that in her world, these little details become important. It's a bit off-putting, but Catelyn gets this shit; she's as into love and romance as the next person, but she acknowledges (and admittedly, perpetuates) the transactional reality of such things as marriage, birth, and inheritance in Westeros, and to some extent, I respect that. She's not horrible about it either. She makes notes of various things, but for example her thoughts pertaining to Roslin and her poor birthing hips are empathetic as well as critical in tone ("childbirth will go hard on her"). She's not mean about it at all.

You mention Jon, which is a big sticking point for most people. I accept that her behavior was unkind and worthy of criticism, but I don't think it makes her a reprehensible human being. "Abused" is a loaded, nonspecific term. In the text, we learn that she ignored Jon. We have one clear example of her saying something unkind to Jon, but it occurs in a moment of intense grief (I'll tell you, her reaction is not that typical) after which she slept for four days. She was on the verge of a breakdown. I think her words were unfortunate, but not unforgivable given the mitigating factors. Her overall behavior toward Jon may qualify as emotional abuse, but at low, not-quite-but-close-to-passive level. I think some people imagine that she followed him around giving him sour looks and hurling insults at him, but I didn’t read her behavior that way. A Westerosi wife has to put up with a lot, but Catelyn put her foot down on this issue, but Ned for reasons of his won put his foot down too, and three people paid the price. Ultimately, I think the Jon/Catelyn dynamic works in many ways. It not only enriches Catelyn’s characterization by clearly defines the types of slights she’ll tolerate and the types she can’t, it also makes it absolutely clear that Ned paid a price for keeping his promise to his sister (I believe). It's also imperative for story purposes that Jon feel he can't go home again after he signs up with the Watch; Catelyn's behavior and her outburst serve within the story to set that up. In general, I think Catelyn’s behavior toward Jon is the exception, not the rule.

As has been said by others, she didn't support Robb's decision to back out of the marriage proposal. She was shocked and dismayed when Robb told her. She released Jaime only after Robb made it clear that he thought a captured Jaime was more valuable than Sansa and Arya combined. Kidnapping Tyrion wasn’t a great move, but she tried to avoid it, and felt backed into a corner when she did it. She didn’t think the knife thing through completely, true. What evidence do you think she had that vindicated Tyrion? I don’t really follow you there.

But back to Catelyn’s good-heartedness. Though we often see Catelyn’s judgmental side, its almost always ameliorated by kindness and empathy in short order. Catelyn is not pleased to note that Mya Stone is a bastard, but she notes Mya’s spunky personality too and then feels sympathy for the girl when she realizes she won’t be allowed to marry the boy she loves because of her birth. Her initial response to Brienne is how unfortunate, an ugly woman. But quickly she realizes the others are mocking her and her protective instincts kick in. Her obvious devotion to Renly only deepens this empathy. When Brienne’s life is threatened, Catelyn guides her to safety, and though initially disapproving, in time she actually validates Brienne’s unconventional occupation by swearing Brienne into her service. We see Catelyn repeatedly comforting and guiding boys and girls, and so I say she has a good sweet heart.

This turned out far longer than I intended, I apologize if I much of it wasn’t necessary for our discussion.

No it was very well stated. I don't think you will turn me a 180 on Cat and how much damage she has done, not because she is a horrible person but because i feel her pettiness often leads to serious problems for her family. I think she really is a great tragic character but I also think alot of her sorrow is fall out from her own actions. I actually think her much more akin to Cersi, especially after reading your post.

touche :cheers:

[WitchyBex]

Ok...I'll confess.

I've come to despise Tyrion.

I once thought Cat was the soul of goodness and was completely justified. Rereads and time have changed my mind.

I struggle to like Dany.

I wish Arianne and the Sand Snakes would go away.

Ramsey Bolton is just sick and Roose is a weakling for just standing by knowing what his son is.

Varys cracked me up until he killed Kevan.

[Myrish Swamp Thing]

R+L=J is starting to irk me

I want to slap anyone who dislikes the Martells (not really, but you get my drift)

I think people here are way too harsh on Cat

[Sneak]

I don't like any of the Greyjoys.

The Martells bore me. (ETA: sorry Juanvito :cheers:)

I like Dany.

I liked Tyrion in AGOT and ACOK, less so in ASOS, and he just annoyed me in ADWD.

I've been indifferent to Arya and Jon since the beginning.

Petyr Baelish is one of my favourite characters.

I'm rereading now and I dread Bran's chapters. I find them so boring.

I can't think of anymore at the moment.

[Fender]

He does quite a bit to support and find a place for everyone of his blood. He shows this again and again far beyond just carying on his line.

Yet he must die....many painful deaths :)

Didn't he tell Cat something like "Go ahead, kill my lackwit son, I don't give a shit"? (Paraphrasing quite a bit, ofc.)

[Night Gathers]

I don't pay much attention to all boat and fleet names, especially in Victarion's chapters where GRRM describes the position of the various fleets and all their names.

[rmholt]

I don't like any of the Greyjoys.

The Martells bore me. (ETA: sorry Juanvito :cheers:)

I like Dany.

I liked Tyrion in AGOT and ACOK, less so in ASOS, and he just annoyed me in ADWD.

I've been indifferent to Arya and Jon since the beginning.

Petyr Baelish is one of my favourite characters.

I'm rereading now and I dread Bran's chapters. I find them so boring.

I can't think of anymore at the moment.

well, in my view only, that is quite enough! :box:

[rmholt]

Didn't he tell Cat something like "Go ahead, kill my lackwit son, I don't give a shit"? (Paraphrasing quite a bit, ofc.)

Well, yes, Aegon was sacrificed for the greater purpose, or Walder was bluffing

[Sneak]

well, in my view only, that is quite enough! :box:

Haha, which one did you dislike? Or was it all of them? :blush:

[BranRaven]

I find the whole way of life of the Iron islanders to be pretty atrocious. They're no better than the Dothraki, and about 10x more cowardly. They literally wait until anyone who could oppose them is gone and sneak and attack unprotected people and castles.

Even some of the Iron Islanders who aren't as bad as others like Asha or Tris Botley I still can't stand.

The only Ironborn I don't despise is Euron Greyjoy, because at least he's forthright about being a bastard and isn't painted in a sympathetic light

[Jolene Brown]

Didn't he tell Cat something like "Go ahead, kill my lackwit son, I don't give a shit"? (Paraphrasing quite a bit, ofc.)

"He's just a grandson and he never was much use."

This is one of those things that should go on the "things you shouldn't have laughed at." GRRM is great at those (of course he prob. intended you to laugh at it, but it's pretty dark humor).

[Lady Lea]

I feel like the Martells could have been great. They could have been the coolest house. But Doran is such a moron, his actions (or lack thereof) make NO SENSE, Quentyn was awful, I don't like the way Arianne is written, and the Sand Snakes barely have a personality...

I still like Dorne though.

[Jolene Brown]

I think the Sand Snakes are such an irritating device that they sort of hang over the Martells and taint them as a unit. If he just cut them out and left everything else the same, I still wouldn't love the Martells, but I do think my opinion of them would be a lot better. I think he generally does an amazing job at writing women, but here, I think the characters are just so one-dimensional. They are almost the classic "flat" characters E.M. Forster talks about when doing his famous little speech about flat vs. round characters. Each one can be easily reduced to a single trait or gimmick.

[BranRaven]

I feel like the Martells could have been great. They could have been the coolest house. But Doran is such a moron, his actions (or lack thereof) make NO SENSE, Quentyn was awful, I don't like the way Arianne is written, and the Sand Snakes barely have a personality...

I still like Dorne though.

Agreed I keep expecting more out of Dorne. So far Arianne has just annoyed me, and I like Doran but he's old and gouty, can;t really do too much. Oberyn was the real bite of that house but GRRM killed him off way too early.

I don't think we know enough about the Sand Snake to judge them yet, Sarella seems pretty awesome and I like Tyene.

[Jolene Brown]

I don't think we know enough about the Sand Snake to judge them yet, Sarella seems pretty awesome and I like Tyene.

Making judgments based on limited information is the entire raison d'etre of the internet. If we stop doing that, how will we spend all our time? :)

I wasn't impressed with Sarella, Tyene, or Lady Nym thus far, though.

[RenlyIsNotRight]

Guess I'll post the rest of mine now...

• I am an unapologetic Stark & Stannis fan. I will defend both of them to the death and I was beyond overjoyed in ADWD when Stannis started fight to free The North from The Boltons.
  
• I honestly feel more sorry for Robert Baratheon than I do for Cersei.
  
• The Martells are boring as hell except for Oberyn. The most interesting thing by far about the Dorne chapters was Darkstar and his shitty one liners.
  
• My obsession with The North is a little bit unhealthy - I kind of want to move to Canada just so I can live a lifestyle more like theirs.
  
• I really don't want the Targaryens back on the Iron Throne - not that there weren't some good Targaryens but I think their haughty attitude and "divine right" thing is bullshit, plus why would anyone want another Aerys or someone like Viserys on the throne.
  
• While I'm not a big fan of the Lannisters overall, Gerion Lannister sounded awesome and I hope we get to see him.
  
• I'd be really upset if The Wall fell - I've always loved the characters and dynamics of the Nights Watch, though I also feel like GRRM has kept our favorite watchmen (Grenn, Pyp, Edd, etc.) alive too long not to be at least considering killing them unfortunately.
  
• Dolorous Edd is way funnier than Tyrion.
  

[Where Boars Glow]

Didn't he tell Cat something like "Go ahead, kill my lackwit son, I don't give a shit"? (Paraphrasing quite a bit, ofc.)

he did say something like that...although i really did take it as a tactful hostige negotiation technique. Make the threat beleive their asset isn't valuable and they feel they have less leverage and will give up.