Best incarnations of Evil in fiction

[The Marquis de Leech]

Further proof that "evil" is relative.

It's an issue of methods. Lord Foul and Yahweh are both very much into the 'inflict pestilence/arbitrary inescapable punishment' thing, and both are complete megalomaniacs.

[delete this account pls]

All of your examples lack context.

I think the show does a pretty good job showing that none of those decisions (except for adultery, perhaps) are taken lightly. Tony's mother and uncle tried to kill him before he moved against them. He kind of had to kill his cousin Tony; the situation with New York backed him into a corner. He didn't want Phil to get his hands on him and possibly torture him. As for Christopher, that's less forgivable. It was tactically sound but morally depraved. His actions in the aftermath of the murder are arguably more repulsive than the murder itself.

They do lack context yeah, but how much does context matter when murder is a routine part of one's life? Apart from Uncle Junior, Tony wasn't acting in self-defence in any one of the examples I gave. And there's a ton of other examples of how little Tony really cares about most of the people around him. Jackie Junior, Artie, Adrianna, Big Pussy, Big Pussy's wife, Feech, Janice .... is there a regular character on the show that Tony doesn't treat like shit at some point? Even the love he has for his kids can be called into question, given that his chosen career puts them under threat.

[brzibrzi]

a man who causes harm to other people for no other reason but to cause harm would be a truly evil man. for instance, tywin could be labeled a sick sadistic bastard but he was only cruel when cruelty was needed. ramsay tortured people for the fun of it and had nothing else to gain. tywin is ambitious but ramsay is evil.

i wanted to nominate baron harkonnen from dune but he was primarily ambitious, he did bad things to improve his position. rape and torture were just hobbies, a way to spend his free time. can't think of anyone else right now.

[MinDonner]

guy in The First Law trilogy

i thought of him more as a gandalf-who-would-take the-ring-and-use-it. i know that galadriel's moment in FotR equates that with sauron, but idunnomaybenot?

anyway, wtf is evil, anyway, aside from somebody that the speaker doesn't like? if we're to entertain true ontological Evil, i want y'all to drop trou and publish some Criteria of Evil so we might make reasonable evaluations.

Exactly what I was going to put (including the spoiler tag!).

As for a definition, I like where Pratchett goes with it (in the more thoughtful parts when he's not just writing crazed irrational assassins, anyway) - the idea that evil begins when you start treating people like objects.

And Lord Foul? I guess he's eeeevil, but I get the feeling that Donaldson actually depicted the Ravers as worse - from a lot of his other books, the removal of free will seems like the greatest crime he can imagine.

[dornish prince]

the chairmaker from use of weapons always springs to mind when this thread makes the loop.

[Nukelavee]

The Limper, from the Black Company.

The Tall Man, from Phantasm.

[Darth Visenya]

Well, I suppose it comes to down to what your idea of evil is. In the beginning of the series, I might not have placed him on the list. But by the end of the show he has pretty much lost every single redeeming quality that he had, aside from love for his family (his real family, that is). I think it's partially that, for me, Tony Soprano is a more "realistic" form of evil than someone like Anton Chigurh or the Joker, who are practically supernatural. In addition, a person like Tony Soprano is different, in my mind, from the likes of, say, Jeffrey Dahmer (I realize I'm comparing a fictional character to a real person, but there are plenty of real life equivalents to Tony -- John Gotti, for the most obvious example). To me, the really out-of-control, ultra-deranged serial killers out there display a serious mental illness, one that they may not entirely be in control of. And I'm not absolving the Jeffrey Dahmers of the world or anything, but I do think there's a difference in conscience. In fact, that might be the most important part. Tony Soprano definitely has a conscience, even towards the end of the series, but he's able to willingly repress and/or delude himself into thinking that whatever he has done was somehow justified. Yet even then, you get the sense that there's always a nagging splinter in his brain, reminding him that, in the end, he isn't one of the good guys.

It's tough to describe, really. I just know that when I think of "real" evil, it's people like -- or at least real people representative of -- Tony Soprano that spring to mind. And sure, you can definitely go with the whole nature vs. nurture argument. After all, Tony was raised in a mob family, so he was exposed to that way of life from the very beginning. But even so, he was still "normal" enough that he recognized right from wrong, and consciously chose to do wrong, often as an easy way out of situations, including emotional ones (I.E. his constant belittling and projecting of his own flaws onto those around him, particularly his sister and mother).

Regardless, I can understand why you would disagree. But from my standpoint, Tony is just a different, and more realistic, incarnation of evil than what would normally be thrown out there (like the Judge or the Joker).

(Hope I didn't just de-rail this thread into a morality debate regarding the evil/goodness of various mobsters and serial killers).

I definately agree he was a bad guy, did some pretty terrible things in the course of the show too, but for me his remorse, or at least questioning some of his actions along with the genuine care he felt for his family make him fall short of being Evil, like another poster said he was bought up in the Mob where violence is an acceptable way of life, and while most of us find his actions abhorrent, I don't feel the guy was truly Evil.

Also I don't think describing him as a Sociopath is wholly accurate, yes he did display some Sociopathic tendencies but one of the key ones is having no conscience whatsoever which ultimately he did.

[Sci-2]

I think Tony's remorse was merely a way for him to justify his actions. He feels bad, so he's not a bad guy. His therapist says something like that right?

[Darth Visenya]

I think she does yes, it has been quite a while since I last saw the show though.

I definatly consider him to be a bad person who did some inexcusable things, I just don't personally feel he is wholly Evil.

[Sci-2]

Whoops, Brady covered the therapist. (And now I got a hankering to watch Goodfellas.)

[Arthmail]

Richard Rahl. His is the most isidious evil of all.

[Sci-2]

Having only read Hyperion, I'll also throw in the Shryke.

Also, Tim Curry's Satan character in Legend.

Satan Dog in All Dogs Go to Heaven. Scared the shit outta me when he's floating over the house at the end whispering "Charlie..."

[Castel]

Tony Soprano was a sociopath who, over the course of the series, serially cheated on his wife, serially cheated on his mistresses, tried to murder his uncle and his mother, and DID murder his cousin and numerous friends, some of whom he'd known since childhood. Buying a car for his daughter, or being sad about a dead horse, doesn't really make up for that. I think it's pretty fair to say he was evil. He was a monster by most of the standards society uses to judge as such. That was Melfi's big realisation towards the end of the final season, and the reason she broke her ties with him.

The ironic thing is that the reasons he is being considered not evil (an inconsistent care for people and animals) are the same reasons that finally show Melfi that it's all a fucking trick. We want to see the best in him so we latch onto those moments but they aren't the measure of the man.

At the end of the day he still goes around hurting people for no reason. He gets an honest cop fired, and when he feels remorse he offers the man money instead of his job so he can drag him to his level. He beats a man until he's blind in one eye for annoying him and then offers to pay the medical bill. He kicks the ass of his loyal bodyguard because of his insecurity and then, you guessed it, throws him a couple of hundred bucks. That is his pattern. Abuse, followed by fleeting regret and shallow apologies. Nothing sticks.

I think Tony's remorse was merely a way for him to justify his actions. He feels bad, so he's not a bad guy. His therapist says something like that right?

Pretty much. Therapy has provided him with a nice bunch of rationalizations like that (during the series he actually pulls out things the therapists says to him to use iirc). He even says it in therapy I can't remember the exact phrase but he claims that he's not real evil because he likes children and is just doing his thing. Or was it Carmela? Suffice it to say that there's enough bullshitting going on that it's difficult to keep straight.

[Durckad]

Best incarnation of evil?

How about

.

[SkynJay]

the chairmaker from use of weapons always springs to mind when this thread makes the loop.

A villain for sure, but pure evil?

Wasn't most the book his attempted redemption ark?

[SeanF]

Tony Soprano is certainly evil. Sympathetic, in some ways, but definitely evil. Carmela is pretty corrupt by the end, as well, and Meadow was getting there.

Good portrayals of evil in fiction (in different ways) include Inquisitor Glokta, Gollum, Screwtape, Richard III, Iago, Roose Bolton, and Nyarlathotep.

[Samalander]

In literature:

Stephen King's The Walking Dude (before King ruined him in The Dark Tower sequece). That guy was Evil.

In Television:

Brother Justin Crowe (Carnivale)

Lucas Buck (American Gothic)

The Mayor (Buffy The Vampire Slayer)

Holland Manners (Angel)

Note that none of these are demons, but rather humans who have chosen to forsake their humanity/embrace evil, for their personal gain/gratification. They also exhibit an alarming ability to corrupt others, mainly due to the remaining vestiges of humanity they still possess.

P.S

Why are there hardly any women characters in this thread? Point of interest...

[SeanF]

I think someone mentioned Dolores Umbridge, who is a very realistic portrayal of someone who is evil in a mean, petty, spiteful way.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

I wouldn't say Glokta is evil. Just a man with a particularly cruel and gruesome job.

The Walkin Dude from The Stand

Henry Bowers from It

Semirhage from WOT

[SeanF]

Glokta didn't need to do that job, though.

And in his own words (to Carlot Dan Eider) "I've done evil things; obscene things; things that would make you puke if I told you about them."