R+L=J #33

[The guy from the Vale]

Just to clarify, if Rhaegar and Lyanna weren't married (is polygamy even legal in Westeros? If not, do they have constitutional reform? though LOL at a constitution under Aerys and etc.) then Jon is still a bastard, correct?

Oh, and gotcha, Octarina. :D

There's no consitution, hence no constitutional reform. And Polygamy is illegal in Westeros, with one glaring exception: Targaryens were allowed to have multiple wives, following the tradition of Aegon I (who married both his sisters) and Maegor I (who married many different women)

[ivorydoom]

No one knows if they were married or not.

Yes Polygamy is excepted for Targs. See Aegon the Conqueror.

I agree, if L+R = J that Jon is probably still a bastard though.

I sorta like Jon as a bastard though. He's showing people whats up with Bastards.

[Lady Octarina]

It's good to see so many new people here; this thread had been almost dead lately. I'd just like to recommend you read the Tower of the Hand essay on Jon's parents; many of the questions you might have are addressed there.

[Old-Growth]

Rhaegar and Lyanna may have been married (by the Green men on the Isle of Faces, or so it has been suggested), but if not, being a Queen, Dany would have the authority to issue a decree of legitimacy if need be.

[Alia of the knife]

@Octarina - good to know. I'm still really new to the series, on my first read and only FFC, so ya know. I have missed a shit ton. But I'm a pretty prolific reader so it's not to hard to piece some ideas together, just sometimes turns out that I missed a few things. But, hey, thats why I joined the board. To get more info.

Is there by chance a thread that lists all the books I should read to get a full picture of SOIAF world? I'd love to read the entire canon.

And yes, I do believe that at the HOTU Dany is told some things never even happened. Which I think a good example is when she sees her own son as a man. (RIght? That happened there correct? )

And again, yes, it's ridiculous hard for me to let my pet theories go, especially when there are very few indicators that its incorrect. I consider one or two overcomable. But I'm not completely irrational, if the theory is totally blown, its blown. But I just dont feel that it was completely and still dont consider too much for GRRM to overcome if he wanted to go that way with the story.

Though now that I read your pet theory....I really freakin' like that too. Just seems like those Dayne's are going to play and important role and that the Dornish are up to something...I'm just not fitting the puzzle together right somehow....

GRR! ARG!! Frustration! LOL

and @ Alia - Stay safe!! I hope everything goes alright for you in that disaster. Thanks for the reply, I'll definitly take that into consideration, because it is a good point. Plus I actually havent made it to the Aegon parts yet, so it will be really awesome to have all this in mind when I do get there.

Is it wrong that I actually enjoy spoilers? I mean, no spoiler is ever as clear and good as the book so it never bothers me. I just like to have the general idea before I read it so I can make a really clear picture in my head.

Thank you for your concern, :wub: , keep your fingers crossed for NJ and NY.

And no, it's not wrong to like Spoilers because I do to, (but I have to remember that others might not). :unsure:

I can then concentrate on the story and not on "angsting." :)

Hmm...as much I want to believe that about Darkstar, why would he have the Dayne surname if he was born out of "dishonor" as Ashara's bastard? :( I also seem to remember her as having a stillborn girl. Which is also strange, come to think of it. Why didn't she just moon-tea that wedlock pregnancy like Hoster had Lysa do?

And sorry about hurricanes, Alia! When you get back to us, could you elaborate on that Aurane Waters theory? Blahhh, I'm so perplexed. So many silver-blonde dudes of dubious origin. :/

Thanks "coldplums8," and as I said, it is a poster by the name "modbelle" who thought of it, but I thought there was some merit to it, because it does seem almost "martinesque" that the play on words would indicate who Aurane Waters,( who is a "bastard" also), might be.

Aegon was supposedly switched with a "pisswater boy" hence the irony of his name, "Waters."

And as for Darkstar, I would refer you to Lady Octerinas excellent post on Brandon+Ashara= Darkstar(k). :)

[ivorydoom]

I noticed something I never had before last night, though I'm not sure it really matters, just wanted to bring it up.

Rhaegar goes back to Kings Landing before he goes to the battle of the Trident where he is killed, this is when Jaime Lannister asks to join him, and he says no. But, Jaime ask him to take him instead of Ser Gerold, which I dont know why I didnt notice this before but Ser Gerold is present at Kings Landing when Brandon and Rickard are killed and then goes with Rheagar before the battle of the Trident, but doesnt stay with him.

I would presume he escorts Lyanna to the Tower of Joy if in fact it is true that Rheagar had her. So that would suggest Lyanna either went to KL or was left somewhere else, but overall, it would suggest that Lyanna probably did know about the horrific deaths of her family....

Which I notice a lot of people seem to think she was oblivious to this fact....so I dont know. Pretty funky. I just never noticed that before, I doubt its terribly important, but I am wondering what Lyanna was doing or where she was at this time.

[ivorydoom]

and...double post.

Sorry -

In regards to my theory on Arthur Dayne and his vows. I was just reading in FFC and was at the part where Arianne Martell is in bed with Arys Oakheart and they're talking about his honor and so on and so forth.

Anyway it leads up to her saying that Arys swore an oath to Joffrey, not Tommen, so his swearing alliegence to Marcella isnt oathbreaking.

So since TOJ occurs after KL - the kingsgaurd could have swore their vows to someone else. They never swore their vows to Rheagar, technically.

Though it is a technicality, I think it could be a loop hole if someone wanted to jump through it....

eh eh??

[Ygrain]

I noticed something I never had before last night, though I'm not sure it really matters, just wanted to bring it up.

Rhaegar goes back to Kings Landing before he goes to the battle of the Trident where he is killed, this is when Jaime Lannister asks to join him, and he says no. But, Jaime ask him to take him instead of Ser Gerold, which I dont know why I didnt notice this before but Ser Gerold is present at Kings Landing when Brandon and Rickard are killed and then goes with Rheagar before the battle of the Trident, but doesnt stay with him.

I would presume he escorts Lyanna to the Tower of Joy if in fact it is true that Rheagar had her. So that would suggest Lyanna either went to KL or was left somewhere else, but overall, it would suggest that Lyanna probably did know about the horrific deaths of her family....

Which I notice a lot of people seem to think she was oblivious to this fact....so I dont know. Pretty funky. I just never noticed that before, I doubt its terribly important, but I am wondering what Lyanna was doing or where she was at this time.

Which chapter is that, please? Does Jaime really mention Gerold Hightower? Whenever the KG were discussed, I was under the impression that Hightower is unaccounted for at that time.

However, even if Hightower was present at KL at that moment, it tells nothing about Lyanna's whereabouts (Dayne is still unaccounted for, hint hint). Furthermore, taking Lyanna to KL would be highly risky - not only would she be a valuable hostage but she would be in a grave danger from Aerys.

That part about Lyanna oblivious to the fate of Brandon and Rickard concerns the time when they were being held and murdered by Aerys. A lot of people on the forums blame Rhaegar and Lyanna for not acting to help them, while it was highly possible that they didn't know a thing at that time, given the distances and means for spreading information.

and...double post.

Sorry -

In regards to my theory on Arthur Dayne and his vows. I was just reading in FFC and was at the part where Arianne Martell is in bed with Arys Oakheart and they're talking about his honor and so on and so forth.

Anyway it leads up to her saying that Arys swore an oath to Joffrey, not Tommen, so his swearing alliegence to Marcella isnt oathbreaking.

So since TOJ occurs after KL - the kingsgaurd could have swore their vows to someone else. They never swore their vows to Rheagar, technically.

Though it is a technicality, I think it could be a loop hole if someone wanted to jump through it....

eh eh??

Would a person acting on a loophole proudly claim that they keep their vows? Somehow, I doubt that. Besides, for some reason, Arys is a soiled knight, and I don't think this refers only to the broken vow of chastity.

[Dr. Pepper]

and...double post.

Sorry -

In regards to my theory on Arthur Dayne and his vows. I was just reading in FFC and was at the part where Arianne Martell is in bed with Arys Oakheart and they're talking about his honor and so on and so forth.

Anyway it leads up to her saying that Arys swore an oath to Joffrey, not Tommen, so his swearing alliegence to Marcella isnt oathbreaking.

So since TOJ occurs after KL - the kingsgaurd could have swore their vows to someone else. They never swore their vows to Rheagar, technically.

Though it is a technicality, I think it could be a loop hole if someone wanted to jump through it....

eh eh??

Arys Oakheart actually swore his oath to Robert. Kingsguard swear to the dynasty, not to individual kings.

He's already breaking his vows at this moment. He's in bed with a woman when he's meant to be celibate. He wants to keep to his vows but he also wants Arianne. She offers him a loophole to subtly manipulate him. Either Arianne doesn't know when Arys came to the Kingsguard or she's purposely not mentioning Robert because he's the one the inducted him in the first place and purposely mentioning Joffrey because it's known that Joff was an asshole. It's a typical play on emotions.

Regarding your other post, can you pull the quote? I don't recall Jaime asking that Hightower stay behind. I thought it was Darry or Barristan he wished to trade places with. Apart from that, there isn't any indication that Rhaegar and Lyanna were in KL when her father and brother were killed.

[Dragonfish]

I noticed something I never had before last night, though I'm not sure it really matters, just wanted to bring it up.

Rhaegar goes back to Kings Landing before he goes to the battle of the Trident where he is killed, this is when Jaime Lannister asks to join him, and he says no. But, Jaime ask him to take him instead of Ser Gerold

As I recall, he asks him to take Jaime and leave Ser Jonothor Darry, not Ser Gerold.

[ivorydoom]

Okay, gimme some time to pull the quote, I HAVE THE AUDIO VERSION only AHH!

I think he says leave Ser Gerold first and then suggests Darry after that.

I'm going to look for it now and I'll come back with the direct quote.

No I'm just an Idiot, he does say leave Ser Darry or Selmy to gaurd the king.

Please ignore me. I'm out of control.

Hightower is still unaccounted for since the death of Brandon and Rickard.

Sorry! :(

[Budj]

Has it been noted the closeness of Aurane Waters to Urine Waters? 'pisswater boy' hahaha

Not to mention Cersei had a thing for him....so being Rhaegar's actual son isn't that far fetched. Hell...that frees Jon up to go do something cooler than being King of the IT....and Aurane is cooler than JC's Aegon...win-win.

[Dr. Pepper]

Has it been noted the closeness of Aurane Waters to Urine Waters? 'pisswater boy' hahaha

Not to mention Cersei had a thing for him....so being Rhaegar's actual son isn't that far fetched. Hell...that frees Jon up to go do something cooler than being King of the IT....and Aurane is cooler than JC's Aegon...win-win.

I think it depends on how it's pronounced. To me, it looks more like it would be pronounced similar to Aaron.

Now, Euron....definitely urine.

[Supa508]

I have a few questions about R+L=J. If Leyana was in love with Rhaegar, how did she feel about her Brother and Father being killed at Aery's hand? Why did she stay? I know Rhaegar leaves KL to go to the Trident and tells Jamie that once he returns many things will change. Did he intend to treat with Robert, did he intend to unseat his own father upon his return? We really need Howland Reed to appear in the books.

[The guy from the Vale]

We have to remember that in Westeros, there are no good means of communications. If R+L were hiding, they probably didn't hear any news for months. They might not have heard about what had happened until the rebellion was far under way. Rhaegar most likely wanted to unseat his father once the rebellion was defeated; while I can't see him treating with Robert, I might see him trying to treat with Jon Arryn and Ned in case Robert had died on the Trident instead of Rhaegar.

[ivorydoom]

I could definitely see Rheagar trying to treat with Jon Arryn. He seems a rational sort and also could have cooled Robert's temper better than Rheagar could.

I think its safe to assume that Rheagar knew of the deaths before he went to the Trident (probably part of the reason he's talking to Jaime as he does, I cant imagine this pleased him) As far as Lyanna, she probably didnt find out until she met up with Gerold Hightower, whenever that happened. By then, no one could do anything, so...

At the very least we know that Ned didnt make his promise to her in concerns to his family members.

[Lady Octarina]

My intuition tells me both Rhaegar and Lyanna might only have heard about Rickard and Brandon's death well into the war. Perhaps they spent most of their time traveling around Westeros, deserted areas, with no way of learning about what transpired in other parts for fear of discovery. Then they arrive at the ToJ, settle there, and only weeks later they learn of what happened, either by Arthur Dayne returning from Starfall where he hears the news, or by Oswell Whent finding them and bringing the news himself (supposing he hadn't been with them the whole time, which is possible). By then, Lyanna is already pregnant, maybe it was a high risk pregnancy from the start (who knows? That could have been what made them take refuge in that tower in the first place), and Rhaegar is summoned to fight in the war. In her condition, even if she wanted to take a more active part (like going to King's Landing) maybe she didn't have the health to do so, or they convinced her not to go for the baby's sake, or maybe at that point they didn't hesitate to make her a prisoner, for her own good.

It is a possible scenario, I don't think we know anything at this point that can contradict this possibility. And it's a good enough explanation for them "not doing anything" about the Starks' deaths.

[Budj]

I think it depends on how it's pronounced. To me, it looks more like it would be pronounced similar to Aaron.

Now, Euron....definitely urine.

haha - yea, more of a tongue in cheek comment...I was more focused on the spelling.

Happy to see some renewed life to the thread though - one of my favorite topics.

[clydas]

Maybe an old question but...

if R+L=J then who will reveal it? Rhaegar, Lyanna, Eddard, Arthur Dayne are all dead.

And how will Jon convince Cersei and friends that he is the real deal and not an impostor?

[Dr. Pepper]

Maybe an old question but...

if R+L=J then who will reveal it? Rhaegar, Lyanna, Eddard, Arthur Dayne are all dead.

And how will Jon convince Cersei and friends that he is the real deal and not an impostor?

There's Howland or Wylla. Might be something in the White Book. Bran perhaps. Or maybe no one reveals it at all and it's known only to the reader.

Cersei and friends won't give a shit. The only people who would care, if Jon made a claim to the throne (which I find very unlikely), are the ones who support Jon.