R+L=J #33

[Zupoleon]

I was wondering (sorry, probably haven't read all the pages of all 33 threads on this, although I am a believer in the theory) if anyone had any ideas as to how Benjen fits in with R+L=J?

I was thinking about possible reasons for Benjen joining the NW, and this is the best I could come up with. We can guess, from Bran's weirwood visions that Benjen and Lyanna were close. Also, Benjen seems to have a stronger relationship with Jon than the other Stark kids, and not just because Jon joins the NW. Could Benjen have known about R+L from a very early stage, and supported her relationship with him? And then, when everything went to pieces and Lyanna, Rickard, Brandon and Rhaegar basically died because of the relationship that he helped to conceal, he felt so guilty that he left Winterfell for the Nights Watch? This would also be why he treats Jon differently, but I know that could simply be due to Jon generally being more similar to Benjen than the others.

I always felt his relationship with Jon hinted at him knowing the truth. Its not too far fetched to think Benjen knew about R & L, and possibly helped them in some way (or was a witness to a secret marriage?). The subsequent deaths of his family members would be reason enough to feel overwhelming guilt, and the decision to join the NW...

[HyacinthGirl]

I always felt his relationship with Jon hinted at him knowing the truth. Its not too far fetched to think Benjen knew about R & L, and possibly helped them in some way (or was a witness to a secret marriage?). The subsequent deaths of his family members would be reason enough to feel overwhelming guilt, and the decision to join the NW...

Glad I'm not alone. I just find it so curious that 5 books in and we still haven't been given a reason for Benjen taking the black.

[Lady Octarina]

I was wondering (sorry, probably haven't read all the pages of all 33 threads on this, although I am a believer in the theory) if anyone had any ideas as to how Benjen fits in with R+L=J?

I was thinking about possible reasons for Benjen joining the NW, and this is the best I could come up with. We can guess, from Bran's weirwood visions that Benjen and Lyanna were close. Also, Benjen seems to have a stronger relationship with Jon than the other Stark kids, and not just because Jon joins the NW. Could Benjen have known about R+L from a very early stage, and supported her relationship with him? And then, when everything went to pieces and Lyanna, Rickard, Brandon and Rhaegar basically died because of the relationship that he helped to conceal, he felt so guilty that he left Winterfell for the Nights Watch? This would also be why he treats Jon differently, but I know that could simply be due to Jon generally being more similar to Benjen than the others.

Amazing, you managed to summarize in your post all of my beliefs on how Benjen is related to R+L=J and why he seems to be closer to Jon than any of the other kids - as, since Jon is the bastard among them, we could expect the opposite.

[Black Wolf Smith]

Glad I'm not alone. I just find it so curious that 5 books in and we still haven't been given a reason for Benjen taking the black.

I think that would mostly due to the fact we have not "seen" Benjen since the early part of the first book, and the only other person that would have known died in it as well.

I guess it is just me, but I have always thought the reason that Wylla pops up so much is that there is more then 1. Like Pate which is a common small folks mans name, and shows up often. Wylla is common small folks women name, and Ned use that to help hid the truth.

[The guy from the Vale]

I think that would mostly due to the fact we have not "seen" Benjen since the early part of the first book, and the only other person that would have known died in it as well.

I guess it is just me, but I have always thought the reason that Wylla pops up so much is that there is more then 1. Like Pate which is a common small folks mans name, and shows up often. Wylla is common small folks women name, and Ned use that to help hid the truth.

As far as I know, Wylla pops up only twice in the books: When Ned and Robert discuss Jon's mother, and when Arya meets Ned Dayne. It's just that it's the only theory so far that hs been confirmed from two independent sources, so, in some ways, it's the best explanation. Or rather would be, if we didn't have Ned's POV.

[iusedtotoo]

I've been trying to figure out this whole theory that Jon's got a claim to the throne and I'd like to see if I got the gist. I haven't made my mind up whether I buy it, but for the sake of my question, I'd like to assume that those who say R&L were married and Jon is their child are right, and that polygamy is not a problem for legitimacy. I'd also like to set aside for a second the obvious fact that the real claim is with the one who has the most power to make it.

In terms of the order of dynasts, this is me figuring who would've had what and when. Please tell me if I have any of this wrong.

Aerys was king, Rhaegar first in line. Viserys second.

Rhaenys born, becomes second. Viserys third.

Aegon born, becomes third (maybe second, I don't know whether males of the same degree are preferred). Viserys fourth.

Rhaegar dies on the Trident. Rhaenys becomes first. Aegon second. Viserys third.

Aerys dies at Kings Landing, Rhaenys (or Aegon) has claim. Aegon first. Viserys second.

Rhaenys and either a fake Aegon or real Aegon die at Kings Landing. Aegon has claim if he's alive, Viserys has it if Aegon's dead.

Jon born at tower of joy, becomes first behind Aegon, or has claim if no Aegon. Viserys second.

Daenarys born on Dragonstone, becomes third, second if no Aegon.

Viserys dies. Aegon still has claim if alive. Jon second. Daenarys third.

So, Jon having a claim would rely on Aegon being dead or dying first and without heirs.

Dany having claim relies on Aegon and Jon both being dead or dying first and without heirs.

Right?

[Please don't tell me to look through the other R&L threads. I've tried, it sucks. I couldn't find any below 23 because you can't enter certain characters needed in the search box. And asking someone to look through all that crap just to make a point or ask a question seems a bit ridiculous.]

[The Drunkard]

I've been trying to figure out this whole theory that Jon's got a claim to the throne and I'd like to see if I got the gist. I haven't made my mind up whether I buy it, but for the sake of my question, I'd like to assume that those who say R&L were married and Jon is their child are right, and that polygamy is not a problem for legitimacy. I'd also like to set aside for a second the obvious fact that the real claim is with the one who has the most power to make it.

In terms of the order of dynasts, this is me figuring who would've had what and when. Please tell me if I have any of this wrong.

Aerys was king, Rhaegar first in line. Viserys second.

Rhaenys born, becomes second. Viserys third.

Aegon born, becomes third (maybe second, I don't know whether males of the same degree are preferred). Viserys fourth.

Rhaegar dies on the Trident. Rhaenys becomes first. Aegon second. Viserys third.

Aerys dies at Kings Landing, Rhaenys (or Aegon) has claim. Aegon first. Viserys second.

Rhaenys and either a fake Aegon or real Aegon die at Kings Landing. Aegon has claim if he's alive, Viserys has it if Aegon's dead.

Jon born at tower of joy, becomes first behind Aegon, or has claim if no Aegon. Viserys second.

Daenarys born on Dragonstone, becomes third, second if no Aegon.

Viserys dies. Aegon still has claim if alive. Jon second. Daenarys third.

So, Jon having a claim would rely on Aegon being dead or dying first and without heirs.

Dany having claim relies on Aegon and Jon both being dead or dying first and without heirs.

Right

As far as I'm aware, women get shunted when it comes to Targaryen inheritance. I doubt Rhaenys would take precendence over Viserys/Aegon.

Anyway, the rest seems right.

[Black Wolf Smith]

Aerys was king, Rhaegar first in line. Viserys second.

Rhaenys born, becomes second. Viserys third.

Aegon born, becomes third (maybe second, I don't know whether males of the same degree are preferred). Viserys fourth.

Rhaegar dies on the Trident. Rhaenys becomes first. Aegon second. Viserys third.

Aerys dies at Kings Landing, Rhaenys (or Aegon) has claim. Aegon first. Viserys second.

Rhaenys and either a fake Aegon or real Aegon die at Kings Landing. Aegon has claim if he's alive, Viserys has it if Aegon's dead.

Jon born at tower of joy, becomes first behind Aegon, or has claim if no Aegon. Viserys second.

Daenarys born on Dragonstone, becomes third, second if no Aegon.

Viserys dies. Aegon still has claim if alive. Jon second. Daenarys third.

So, Jon having a claim would rely on Aegon being dead or dying first and without heirs.

Dany having claim relies on Aegon and Jon both being dead or dying first and without heirs.

It seems about right. Yes after the Dance of the Dragons, they made were women were push to the back of the line. So yes for the sake making this as simply as possible, leaving as is in a perfect world, Dany would behind both Aegon, and a legit Jon her older, nephews.

[HyacinthGirl]

Amazing, you managed to summarize in your post all of my beliefs on how Benjen is related to R+L=J and why he seems to be closer to Jon than any of the other kids - as, since Jon is the bastard among them, we could expect the opposite.

:cheers:

I think that would mostly due to the fact we have not "seen" Benjen since the early part of the first book, and the only other person that would have known died in it as well.

It's not just that Benjen has disappeared and Ned has died, it's that nobody (i.e. Jon, Bran, or maybe even Cat) has thought about why Benjen took the black, and nobody in the NW ever discusses it, which makes me think it could well be part of a secret as big as R+L.

The fact that Ned never thought about it could be due to how it links in with R+L=J and how he never, ever lets himself go there, or at least, no further than "promise me, Ned" (when he isn't delirious and in a fever dream).

The reason for many of the black brothers joining the NW has been discussed at some point, usually internally by Jon, and Bran is always going on about Stark family history. What I'm saying is that I feel like GRRM has pointedly kept it quiet, and there wouldn't be much point in doing that if it was just to do with a minor scandal or one of Benjen's character traits that could have easily been briefly covered, as it has been for many of the black brothers.

Sorry if this is a little off-topic, I'm just interested to discuss how Benjen could fit in with this theory.

[Black Wolf Smith]

@HyacinthGirl my point was that no one ever thinks about memories of Benjen at all, other then where is he, not even Ned. The only thing we have is Lyanna and Benjen seemed to have played together thru the weirwood tree.

I also am pretty sure no one alive knows why he joined the NW. IMO Benjen knew about Lyanna plan, or helped her do it but it could also be that there is something like "always a Stark at WF" type reason for a Stark to be at the Wall.

[Supa508]

I believe they do touch upon Benjen going to the wall in the first book. They make reference to the North still remembering the importance of the NW, also that in the north it's still honorable for a lord or knight to take the black. They also mention that its a Stark tradition to serve on the NW and with Benjen out of the running for Lord of Winterfell it makes sense for him to take the black.

[ArabellaVidal]

I believe they do touch upon Benjen going to the wall in the first book. They make reference to the North still remembering the importance of the NW, also that in the north it's still honorable for a lord or knight to take the black. They also mention that its a Stark tradition to serve on the NW and with Benjen out of the running for Lord of Winterfell it makes sense for him to take the black.

Or he could have married into a great family in order to promote Lord Rickard's 'southron ambitions'. That is, if R+L=/= Robert's Rebellion.

[Lady Octarina]

I believe they do touch upon Benjen going to the wall in the first book. They make reference to the North still remembering the importance of the NW, also that in the north it's still honorable for a lord or knight to take the black. They also mention that its a Stark tradition to serve on the NW and with Benjen out of the running for Lord of Winterfell it makes sense for him to take the black.

The problem is, as far as we know Benjen joined the Watch shortly after the war - that is, before Sansa was born, when the only child Catelyn and Ned had was Robb. Many things could go wrong there; Robb and Ned could die, and what would happen to Winterfell with no more Starks available? So, if he joined the Watch when he was only behind Robb in line for being lord of Winterfell, that means he had a really good reason for doing that. Not to mention that it seems he was only 14 or 15 when the war ended, and, unless you're a criminal sent to the Wall, it doesn't seem to be customary to take the black that young.

[Lady of the Oak]

I think people would be more likely to ask questions if there was a mystery surrounding why Benjen joined the Night's Watch, so calling it 'Stark family tradition' is a nice way of sidestepping that issue.

It's very possible that Benjen knew full well what Lyanna planned and felt tremendously guilty after the war ended, but we have very little evidence to support this... unless we count Bran's weirwood vision of him and Lyanna when they were young. I would very much like to believe this theory but it seems to me that the evidence for it is very scant. :dunno:

The problem is, as far as we know Benjen joined the Watch shortly after the war - that is, before Sansa was born, when the only child Catelyn and Ned had was Robb. Many things could go wrong there; Robb and Ned could die, and what would happen to Winterfell with no more Starks available? So, if he joined the Watch when he was only behind Robb in line for being lord of Winterfell, that means he had a really good reason for doing that. Not to mention that it seems he was only 14 or 15 when the war ended, and, unless you're a criminal sent to the Wall, it doesn't seem to be customary to take the black that young.

Do we know exactly when Benjen joined the NW? I don't remember reading it anywhere, but it has been a while... It does create quite the potential issue, as well as raising quite a few questions... it might be possible that most people put it down to grief, hence their hesitance to ask questions about his reasons.

Maybe I'm just clutching at straws... :unsure:

[Lux in Tenebris]

Not odd at all. I think she DID nurse Jon. But that doesn't mean that she couldn't also have nursed the younger Edric Dayne.

Why would she tell Edric that she nursed Ned Stark's bastard son?

[TheWhiteRabbit]

So here's my first post. If Jon really is a big part of prophecy (PIP / AA) I would think he would be kind of limited as the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. Especially if he is supposed to become king. I thought after the way Dance ended Jon would mostly likely be relieved of his duties. It's a hunch but I think technically Jon dies and as that point the red lady realizes who Jon is and gives him the kiss to bring him back to life. Since technically he died he will no longer be held to his oath. As anyone else thought about this? Or at least thought that Jon having a part of the prophecy kind of clashes with him being a member of the night's watch??

[The guy from the Vale]

So here's my first post. If Jon really is a big part of prophecy (PIP / AA) I would think he would be kind of limited as the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. Especially if he is supposed to become king. I thought after the way Dance ended Jon would mostly likely be relieved of his duties. It's a hunch but I think technically Jon dies and as that point the red lady realizes who Jon is and gives him the kiss to bring him back to life. Since technically he died he will no longer be held to his oath. As anyone else thought about this? Or at least thought that Jon having a part of the prophecy kind of clashes with him being a member of the night's watch??

This idea has been brought up before.

Since I think the Night's Watch is an important part of the prophecy, I don't think Jon being Lord Commander clashes with his prophetic purpose all that much - although I do believe his heritage may come up in the political realm at one point or another.

[TheWhiteRabbit]

So if he remains Lord Commander he'll most likely never become king, right? People have also predicted Jon and Danny will marry but that doesn't seem possible either.

[The guy from the Vale]

So if he remains Lord Commander he'll most likely never become king, right? People have also predicted Jon and Danny will marry but that doesn't seem possible either.

Depends on quite a number of variables. First of all, there's the question of the authenticity of the modern vows - compare and contrast the modern vow with Sam's words in front of the Nightfort's Weirwood door. Then there's the question if the Night's Watch will persist until the very end of the books, or if it will be dissolves, supplanted, or something similar.

As for Dany and Jon marrying, I have a hard time seeing that except for explicitly political purposes - these two are quite different in a number of ways. The only things they have in common are their unknown family bonds and their empathy.

[Jem]

Why would she tell Edric that she nursed Ned Stark's bastard son?

Well Edric seems to be under the impression that Wylla is Jon's mother, so that would be reason enough to nurse him. The more interesting question would be: why did she tell Edric that she is the mother of Ned Stark's bastard son? Or, if she didn't actually tell him that: why does Edric think that Wylla is the mother of Ned Stark's bastard? Did Allyria tell him? Allyria seems pretty mouthy in regards to telling Edric all about Ned Stark (even though she would only have been a little girl at the time of the Rebellion, if she was even born at all, so likely she has no first-hand knowledge of what went on). The Daynes seem very interested in the Starks, though the Starks (well the children anyway) know next to nothing about the Daynes.