Cersei and Sexuality

[Elder Sister]

The sexuality thing is not what makes me look down on Cersei. But her lying, self-centered, pompous, entitled, paranoid driven stupidity does. If all she did was spread because she was horny I wouldn't give a crap. But all her other traits get worked into why she has sex with the different characters she does.

Stay classy, Gannicus.

[Gorubahn]

Zar Lannister: I think that we actually agree on most points; I was just trying to take it easy on Cersei since: 1) I had just finished mercilessly bashing her in another thread and 2) I felt that the subject of her marriage to Robert was a sensitive one to some readers and deserved kid gloves.

Voodooqueen: Thank you very much for the compliment!

Dimadick: How can you say that her running away with Jaime is "hardly realistic"... and then name a bunch of people who did exactly that? You're right that she would have to give up her life of privilege, but that is the point I was making: she can accept a life of luxury and serve the realm but keep her sexuality under control or she can go be with her man but actually have to find her own way in the world. Trying to "have her cake and eat it too" as queen is not only immoral but, if you ask me, the root cause of the WOFK.

Ragnarok: I think that the length of their affair is reason enough to assume that she loves him -- more than that there is the fact that she was risking her life and her children's future every time she lay with him. That's a lot to risk just to "play" with Jaime, as you described. And if all she wanted was Lannister children... didn't she already have three? What, was she going for a fourth? Why? Her attachment to him certainly seemed to dip during a certain portion of the books and how she feels for him now is up for debate (she claims to love him, but she also desperately needs his support), but to say that she never loved him at all? You could say that Cersei is incapable of loving anyone (and Jaime is as close as she'll ever come), or that Cersei only loves him because she sees him as a reflection of herself (pure narcissism), but I do not think she has just been "playing" with him all this time. Perhaps we'll have to agree to disagree.

[Lion of Judah]

I have a bit of a different take on Cersei. We're not talking about actual, real people inhabiting a medieval time period, and the work is written in the 20th and 21 centuries - we're dealing with an author's interpretation of a woman who has no real rights to speak of, and is a victim of abuse for years within the constraints of her marriage. Cersei is also a pretty blatant narcissist, and her only truly redeeming quality is her love for her children.

• We know that Cersei has resented her role as the female vassal to be traded off to whatever house her father deems worthy. However, we also know through Cersei's own words, that in the beginning of her courtship to Robert, she did 'love' him, or at least find him extremely handsome, and worthy. It was only when he began abusing her and calling her Lyanna that she grew to hate him. I think Zar is right in that her children by Jaime are a way of exacting revenge. And in her defense, she really didn't have any options open to her of correcting the situation or escaping it.
  
• Her relationship with Jaime, while extremely repulsive to us as modern readers, actually makes sense to me, and like Dimadick, it's one of the things that makes me sympathize with Cersei. She got no love from her father. Her husband was a horrific, drunken abuser, and the one person who was kind and good to her, was, unfortunately, her brother. And we know that the Targaryens practiced incest pretty regularly to the point of seriously weakening their gene pool.
  
• Regarding Cersei's practice of using her sexuality to manipulate others and achieve her goals: I understand why she's doing this. Women in Westeros have limited options, and her beauty and sexuality are the only things that her family and all of Westeros have ever seemed to value. We see this in the description of her father's attempts to marry her to Rhaegar. We see this in the descriptions of Cersei herself, and then finally during the Walk of Shame, her power is gone because people 'see' her for what she is - an aging woman who's beauty is fading.
  
• Cersei's actual actions are very much indefensible with regards to Qyburn. Her willingness to give him innocent people to experiment on is just wrong, wrong, wrong. She has twinges of conscience about it and pushes those twinges aside. I am not in any way defending her for this type of behavior. BUT, having said that, it bothers me how much derision and vitriol is aimed at Cersei on a regular basis, and we have male characters who do similar things and they actually have a fan base, re: Roose Bolton.
  
• Cersei's history shows that she was a cruel, sociopathic character even in girlhood, but it's interesting to me how the events of her life seem to shape her. The abuse she suffers in her marriage seems to make her more cruel instead of empathetic to others. The description of her relationships with Taena and Sansa are good examples of this.
  

Cersei is GRRM's whipping boy in many ways. And to be honest, it sort of bothers me. I am not bothered by her using her sexuality as a means to an end; it's one of the few tools she has. Of course, I'm bothered by the cruelty she exacts on others, but I also think that GRRM is making a statement about women's roles in this time period, and perhaps unknowingly, he's allowing us the opportunity to examine our own reaction to women who use their sexuality for advancement. Cersei's actions are no different from her male contemporaries, only instead of engaging in sex for pleasure, like Tyrion, she's engaging in it to advance her cause.

I wish she would get the opportunity for redemption that we see Jaime and Tyrion getting, but she's doomed to be the villain, and I doubt that changes. She's one of my favorite characters, and I usually root for her in her dealings with the Martells and the Tyrells, especially now that she's in a position of weakness.

Very interesting analysis...I feel like we are not supposed to be sympathetic towards Cersei. She has endured, which has taken some presumptive skill other than being sexually domineering.

[danm_999]

I didn't have a problem with Cersei's sexuality in and of itself. Even her relationship with Jaime, which I felt was gross, I could accept because they were consenting adults and she had been forced into a loveless and abusive marriage.

The problem I had was with how utterly hypocritical she was towards tolerating other people's sexuality, and the explotation she engineered out of other people's sexuality. It's effectively her go to attack in the series. First with Tyrion, then with Margaery and Taena Merryweather.

How can someone so brazenly oppressed by the sexual mores of her own society be such a monster in condemning that behaviour in other people?

[fiekie]

I think that's a case where they're so used to seeing themselves as one soul in two bodies that they can't recognise their views on the issue of fidelity have been or are beginning to be different. Jaime could always be physically faithful: he could tell himself he was honouring his vows to the KG and his love for Cersei by not having sex with any other women. For Cersei, on the other hand, it was a fact of life that however she tried to discourage him Robert would eventually return to her room and need to be satisfied with some sort of sexual act. Jaime could devote his heart and body to Cersei alone. Despite their AFFC disagreements, IMO Cersei's heart is still Jaime's, but she's used to a very different way of seeing her body and sexuality. She didn't let Jaime know the extent of the violence Robert could visit on her. Does Cersei know that she's doing Jaime harm? Tyrion was the one who got him thinking about her infidelity, but Cersei hasn't made a confession. I get the impression that she's thinking that "what he doesn't know can't hurt him" and she sees herself as the brain, the one who makes decisions and has to keep some things secret from reckless Jaime with his tendency to act in the heat of the moment. So it's natural for her to not share everything with him, which has now started driving them apart. She's also so self-centred, so used to seeing her beauty as a weapon and a way to win political concessions from men, that she can't put herself in Jaime's shoes and see it as serious betrayal - much as he can't put himself in her shoes and think about what it really means for Cersei to be a woman and be denied the sword as a weapon or the authority he has as a man, even a crippled one.

In a way, they're both still immature to me. They didn't get to grow up and reach a more adult understanding of love as two individuals committed to a relationship - "one soul in two bodies" is harmful and excessive idealism that's breaking down now that the external factors that forced them to be discreet, Robert and Tywin, have been removed. Cersei is as blindly selfish as a child; Jaime is as romantic as a sheltered boy. Cersei can't see anything wrong with sleeping with other men since it doesn't mean anything to her and is just her way of using her one weapon; she's physically unfaithful but emotionally faithful. Jaime can't help but see it as a violation of his views of love and honour since the romance of Cersei blinds him to the reality of her situation as a woman who was never given the respect and options he had as a man or the martial training Brienne received because of her unusually permissive father; he's physically faithful but becomes emotionally unfaithful. So in ADWD Jaime has let go of Cersei, the mother of his children, while she spends her chapters and the walk of shame still devoted to the idea of their love and supernatural connection, unaware that Jaime has abandoned her and sees her as a whore just as the people of King's Landing do. In general, I can't agree that Cersei becomes a truly evil character when she uses sex to manipulate Jaime, when someone like Tyrion is so rarely condemned as truly evil for raping women who can't say no. It's a sign of how unhealthy their relationship has become, but far from the worst we get in ASOIAF even if the discussion of cruelty and manipulation is limited to sexual acts alone. Jaime does have the option to say yes or no, and whether he goes along with Cersei's plan or refuses it is a choice he himself makes; he's also used sex to distract Cersei, as when they reunite next to Joffrey's corpse and in his memory of shutting up her protests about Bran.

I could'nt agree more.

And I think the reason most people hate Cercei is because the stuff she does is so frustatingly stupid. She's obviously not a total idiot; so she has the brains to be a good leader. Yet she keeps making enemies of potential allies, she surrounds herself with people who are BLATANTLY just using her and she's unncessarily cruel because she doesn't even consider other ways of dealing with her "enemies". She actually had a lot going for her: she's pretty and smart and she comes from a politically strong family and she could potentially have a lot of allies. It all feels like such a waste. I'm actually very sorry for her. Yes she got a shitty deal with robert and it's unfair that she doesn't have a choice etc. but she didn't have to end up in the position she is in now. Her love-affair with Jaime is also really sad. He truly did love her! And I think, inasmuch as Cercei is capable of "love", she did love him as well; and now she's (unwittingly) ruined the relationship too. Truly lamentable.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

Her promiscuity and incestuous relationship with her brother is definitely something which made me like her even less, that is, if I ever liked her, which I actually didn't. It's more of a complementary thing though, because I like Anne Boleyn. Accusations against her aren't verified though, and Henry Tudor wasn't an honest man, so maybe that is why I still really like her. Marie Antoinette promiscuity doesn't play a role in my slightly dislike for her, since my dislike for her stems out the fact that she squandered A LOT of money while the rest of France was starving.

But what about it? Why should it matter or even be a bad thing that I like Cersei even less because she's promiscuous and had an incestuous relationship?

Renly's homosexuality isn't a problem here or in the books, I don't see many people who use that to marginalize him. I dislike Renly because of its arrogance and because he wanted the Throne of Joffrey for himself, saying he wasn't legitimate, while his brother Stannis clearly is the rightful King and should get the Throne.

[Lion of Judah]

Her promiscuity and incestuous relationship with her brother is definitely something which made me like her even less, that is, if I ever liked her, which I actually didn't. It's more of a complementary thing though, because I like Anne Boleyn. Accusations against her aren't verified though, and Henry Tudor wasn't an honest man, so maybe that is why I still really like her. Marie Antoinette promiscuity doesn't play a role in my slightly dislike for her, since my dislike for her stems out the fact that she squandered A LOT of money while the rest of France was starving.

But what about it? Why should it matter or even be a bad thing that I like Cersei even less because she's promiscuous and had an incestuous relationship?

Renly's homosexuality isn't a problem here or in the books, I don't see many people who use that to marginalize him. I dislike Renly because of its arrogance and because he wanted the Throne of Joffrey for himself, saying he wasn't legitimate, while his brother Stannis clearly is the rightful King and should get the Throne.

It's a matter of having stimulating conversation.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

It's a matter of having stimulating conversation.

That probably too, but I took the OP as wanting to demean such people, because a woman's promiscuity or incestuous relationship shouldn't be included in your judgment of her.

I don't know whether anyone or even you yourself thought it though. (:

[Lyanna Stark]

On the issue of her sex with Robert (and here is where I fear mod wrath), it is my recollection that intercourse between the two of them was very infrequent and when it did happen, Cersei either didn't like it or resisted(?). I am in no way saying that anyone reading this post will ever have the right in their lifetimes to do anything non-consensual with anyone else sexually. I am not advocating rape or saying that a wife is her husband's property. I will posit, however, that the queen does, in a very real sense, belong to the realm, at the very least where her reproductive facilities are concerned, and it is her obligation to provide an heir to carry on their government and avoid civil war and/or foreign invasion. Therefore, it was her responsibility to get it on with Robert at least occasionally and vice versa. Refusing him sexually because she doesn't approve of his lifestyle or because she doesn't like the way he treats her, while understandable and deserving of sympathy, is the wrong answer in the grand scheme of things.

This depends on if you think refusing to go along with society's mores and rules when they are objectionable to you is a good or bad thing. Clearly I come down on that people should object and should reject the rules that are objectionable or oppressive.

To claim that it is Cersei's duty to completely give up the right to her own body and to her own right to decide who gets to father her children implicitly means an endorsement of reactionary values, of the status quo. Cersei's entire character arc is saturated with her bitterness, her lashings out at the narrow and confined role she was supposed to inhabit. When Jaime got a sword, she had to learn to please, to sew, to dance.

In refusing to carry Robert's children, she is rejecting socety's mores and rules and also the patriarchal structures to which she is a victim.

The duty you claim she has, well, did she ever have a choice about that? She went from Tywin to Robert, without having any say in the matter. Her duty has been dictated by others, hence it is not her personal duty, but one that was thrust upon her. Claiming that "she has no business being queen" also implies Cersei had a choice, that she had the power to choose, the power to reject, the power to make her own way in society. Which is not the case. Tywin wanted Cersei to be queen. First he wanted her married to Rhaegar, the then Crown Prince, and when Robert took over, he went for him instead. Tywin creates Cersei's "duty" and expects her to obey.

That probably too, but I took the OP as wanting to demean such people, because a woman's promiscuity or incestuous relationship shouldn't be included in your judgment of her.

I don't know whether anyone or even you yourself thought it though. (:

Why is it bad for a woman to be promiscuous?

[Lady Sansa Stark]

Why is it bad for a woman to be promiscuous?

This is exactly what I meant. xD

I think it's bad for humans in general to be promiscuous. Just certain norms, values and principles of me.

[Mikkel]

I dislike Cercei for a number of reasons, but her sexuality or perceived promiscuity isn't one of them. Her selfishness, feeling of entitlement and almost psychotic lack of empathy, now those are (IMO) good reasons to dislike her.

[Lyanna Stark]

This is exactly what I meant. xD

I think it's bad for humans in general to be promiscuous. Just certain norms, values and principles of me.

Well, why? Why is it bad for humans to be promiscuous?

I am asking because I am baffled by this statement.

[Mikkel]

Well, why? Why is it bad for humans to be promiscuous?

I am asking because I am baffled by this statement.

Well that's a matter of opinion, but the norms of our society idealizes staying with one person your whole life, and a generally promiscuous behavior will tend to make that ideal hard to achieve.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

I would however imagine that the books are quite difficult to enjoy for someone who would actually believe that to be a moral issue (and not just a matter of going along with social mores or not).

[Lady Sansa Stark]

Well, why? Why is it bad for humans to be promiscuous?

I am asking because I am baffled by this statement.

As I said; those are certain norms and values I have. It's a matter of opinion. In my opinion, it's just a bad thing to be promiscuous. I can't really explain why I feel it's a bad thing though. I don't understand why you're so baffled by this, as it is a widely accepted norm to not be promiscuous.

[Lyanna Stark]

As I said; those are certain norms and values I have. It's a matter of opinion. In my opinion, it's just a bad thing to be promiscuous. I can't really explain why I feel it's a bad thing though. I don't understand why you're so baffled by this, as it is a widely accepted norm to not be promiscuous.

This differs a lot depending on where you live though, so to blithely state that it's a widely accepted norm to not be promiscuous and then also apply that norm to be morally right seems more than passing odd to me.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

This differs a lot depending on where you live though, so to blithely state that it's a widely accepted norm to not be promiscuous and then also apply that norm to be morally right seems more than passing odd to me.

Every norm of me is morally right to me, otherwise it wouldn't be a norm of me. Same goes for your norms; your norms are morally right to you, otherwise it wouldn't be your norms, right? That's the whole point of norms and values. What I meant by 'widely accepted norm' is that I did not understand why you are so baffled by my statement, since the norm is widely known in the world. Not only in islamic countries or other traditional countries, but also in the Western World.

[Lion of Judah]

That probably too, but I took the OP as wanting to demean such people, because a woman's promiscuity or incestuous relationship shouldn't be included in your judgment of her.

I don't know whether anyone or even you yourself thought it though. (:

The thread was started with the intention of posters having intriguing conversation about a topic worthy of analysis. If you took it in an offensive way then that's very unfortunate. I do like that you bring a different perspective to the discussion, so instead of taking issue with the thread itself I think you should make your argument. You could bring up some very good points.

[mormont]

What I meant by 'widely accepted norm' is that I did not understand why you are so baffled by my statement, since the norm is widely known in the world. Not only in islamic countries or other traditional countries, but also in the Western World.

Except that it's not, exactly. It is a very widespread norm to view promiscuity in women as bad while wholeheartedly encouraging it in men. So when you talk about it being a norm, you can't help but evoke that double standard, even if you personally don't share it.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

The thread was started with the intention of posters having intriguing conversation about a topic worthy of analysis. If you took it in an offensive way then that's very unfortunate. I do like that you bring a different perspective to the discussion, so instead of taking issue with the thread itself I think you should make your argument. You could bring up some very good points.

Oh I'm not taking issue with the thread or something, wasn't my purpose. However, I already made some sort of argument in my first post: I stated that I think it's bad for a woman (or people in general) to be promiscuous and to have an incestuous relationship with your brother. I also said that Cersei's promiscuity and incest certainly aren't my main reasons for disliking her; they more or less complement my dislike for her. I never liked her for obvious reasons (stupidity, murder, betrayal, torture etc), but her promiscuity and incest make me like her even less. (: