Cersei and Sexuality

[Lady Sansa Stark]

Cersei is sexually promiscuous? You're promiscuous if you have had sex with four different people during your life?

The hurdle is clearly much lower than I would have thought.

She clearly doesn't have a problem with it to have sex with multiple people and she uses it as some sort of weapon. Too bad for her she couldn't seduce Stannis.

[straits]

:agree:

There's also the curiosity that female promiscuity is not only looked down upon more, but is also defined with harsher limits. Men who have several partners often get a pass, while comparably, women with several partners are seen as more suspicious and worhty of contempt.

For instance, there is a lot of complaint on this board about Dany taking Daario as a lover, how it's silly, immature, too promiscuous, etc. But he's only the second man she ever sleeps with. And the first was her husband, a man she was sold to in marriage.

Cersei, too, hardly has a enormous amount of partners. At age 35ish after having been sexually active for 20 years, she's slept with Jaime, Robert, Lancel and two of the Kettleblacks***. That's five in total, and six if you count Taena Merryweather. Apart from Jaime, she also sleeps with the rest after Robert is dead, meaning she is a widow, and technically "single".

***if we assume only one Kettleblack then the total is five, counting Taena Merryweather.

Dany is not promiscuous, but she's going down the path of a crappy leader. She's not fully in control of her relationship with Daario, which I would have expected from someone as strong willed as her. It's fine that she's with him, but it isn't fine that he gets a say in her political actions.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

The hurdle for female characters definitely seems to be low, as Dany gets slutshamed after two!

I'll just assume you weren't talking about my statement here. ;)

[Lyanna Stark]

I'll just assume you weren't talking about my statement here. ;)

No, that is picked from the Dany hate threads. :crying:

[Mikkel]

Oh, by the way: If male promiscuity was so encouraged and popular, wouldn't old King Bob be hailed as the epitome of amazingness? Which he obviously isn't.

[ARYa_Nym]

She clearly doesn't have a problem with it to have sex with multiple people and she uses it as some sort of weapon. Too bad for her she couldn't seduce Stannis.

This is not something I shame her for but I see it as more evidence of her incompetence. She sleeps with men like Lancel for example but none of these men are/were loyal to her even though she thinks that sex will make them be her faithful minions.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

Because I didn't ask why people believed it was morally right or why it has historically been a norm, but why you thought promiscuity is bad, because personally I have never really understood why two adult people having consensual sex is a moral ill that should be condemned.

I don't mind consensual sex, I just dislike people who have sex with multiple partners, and doing one-night-stands etc. It's not a characteristic I'd want to see in a future partner. Mostly, when people are being promiscuous before they marry or have a 'fixed' relationship, it's easier for them to be adulterous in their relationship as well. It's one of the reasons of the many divorces nowadays in my country at least.

No, that is picked from the Dany hate threads. :crying:

Hmm. Is that really brought up as an argument against Daenerys? Because, frankly, I am a wholehearted hater of Daenerys, but for quite different reasons. Daario hasn't really crossed my mind there.

[Lummel]

You know you are one of my favorite posters, right? :)

Glad to be of service ma'am ;)

...At age 35ish after having been sexually active for 20 years, she's slept with Jaime, Robert, Lancel and two of the Kettleblacks***. That's five in total, and six if you count Taena Merryweather. Apart from Jaime, she also sleeps with the rest after Robert is dead, meaning she is a widow, and technically "single".

***if we assume only one Kettleblack then the total is five, counting Taena Merryweather.

Oh Lancel. I had forgotten him and his desire to give Cersei a beautiful pearl necklace.

She clearly doesn't have a problem with it to have sex with multiple people and she uses it as some sort of weapon. Too bad for her she couldn't seduce Stannis.

Why should she have a problem with it?

Multiple makes it sound like some kind of roman orgy when we know that she has been a stable long term ménage a trois until Robert's death. Aside from that a seductive overture to a Kettleblack that gets out of hand and he takes advantage of, a one night stand with Lady Merryweather and some comfort from Nephew Lancel at a stressful time in her life. The last three over a period of about a year.

Maybe I'm less puritanical than I thought but I wouldn't even think that was unusual, let alone promiscuous. The only weapon like use would be the overture to Kettleblack that goes wrong, arguably Lancel got part of his reward in sex for being a good nephew.

[straits]

Maybe I'm less puritanical than I thought but I wouldn't even think that was unusual, let alone promiscuous. The only weapon like use would be the overture to Kettleblack that goes wrong, arguably Lancel got part of his reward in sex for being a good nephew.

Because sex is a reward for one party from another, and not a consensual two-way indulgence.

[SeanF]

Cersei's problem is that one lover (Lancel) is a broken reed, while others (the Kettleblacks) are trash.

Catherine the Great took lovers who strengthened her hold over Russia. Edward II's Queen, Isabella, took one of the most powerful Barons in the Kingdom (Roger Mortimer) as her lover, strengthening her rule for a time.

[ARYa_Nym]

.

Catherine the Great took lovers who strengthened her hold over Russia. Edward II's Queen, Isabella, took one of the most powerful Barons in the Kingdom (Roger Mortimer) as her lover, strengthening her rule for a time.

That's what I love about Catherine. I think she was intelligent and had cunning.

Dany and Arya have personal similarities to her but I think in general the female characters wanting to rule could learn from her example but alas she did not exist in their world.

[Mikkel]

I don't mind consensual sex, I just dislike people who have sex with multiple partners, and doing one-night-stands etc. It's not a characteristic I'd want to see in a future partner. Mostly, when people are being promiscuous before they marry or have a 'fixed' relationship, it's easier for them to be adulterous in their relationship as well. It's one of the reasons of the many divorces nowadays in my country at least.

:bs:

That's your opinion, which you are of course welcome to, but there's absolutely no reason to assume it's in any way an objective truth.

On the contrary, I believe that the people that have had the opportunity to find out what they want both sexually and otherwise in a partner, are much more likely to have found someone they actually want to stick with once they do "settle down", assuming they do.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

:bs:

That's your opinion, which you are of course welcome to, but there's absolutely no reason to assume it's in any way an objective truth.

On the contrary, I believe that the people that have had the opportunity to find out what they want both sexually and otherwise in a partner, are much more likely to have found someone they actually want to stick with once they do "settle down", assuming they do.

I'm sorry, I forgot to clearly state it was my opinion. (And of some others, but nevermind.)

[Elder Sister]

I don't mind consensual sex, I just dislike people who have sex with multiple partners, and doing one-night-stands etc. It's not a characteristic I'd want to see in a future partner. Mostly, when people are being promiscuous before they marry or have a 'fixed' relationship, it's easier for them to be adulterous in their relationship as well. It's one of the reasons of the many divorces nowadays in my country at least.

Hmm. Is that really brought up as an argument against Daenerys? Because, frankly, I am a wholehearted hater of Daenerys, but for quite different reasons. Daario hasn't really crossed my mind there.

Seriously? You think people who have what you call 'promiscuous' sex make bad future partners? I want to talk about this, if you don't mind. And let me say for the sake of disclosure, that I am highly religious, would make a great Quaker, and am married for twenty + years, and never been unfaithful to my spouse. :)

*You say people who are 'promiscuous' before a relationship make poor partners. Lummel already demonstrated that the word 'promiscuous' is a judgement, and is by itself, not very helpful. How many is too many? Four? Twelve? And does it matter whether I am male or female?

*I don't follow how a person's romantic history with regards to number equates to a propensity towards divorce. I think it's more an indicator that divorce is easier, with less ramifications, and people don't view marriage in the same way as they did say, fifty years ago. Not good, necessarily, but I do think it's a good thing that a woman has more avenues available to her now with regards to divorce.

And Lummel brings up another good point. These men that Cersei had sex with are never viewed as being promiscuous themselves, in point of fact, we place no judgement on them at all. I don't include Lancel in this because he was underage and that whole deal skeeved me out and is a topic for another day. :)

[Lyanna Stark]

I don't mind consensual sex, I just dislike people who have sex with multiple partners, and doing one-night-stands etc. It's not a characteristic I'd want to see in a future partner. Mostly, when people are being promiscuous before they marry or have a 'fixed' relationship, it's easier for them to be adulterous in their relationship as well. It's one of the reasons of the many divorces nowadays in my country at least.

0.o

Well, thanks for that, I guess. Perhaps I should tell my husband I need to divorce him now because I am bound to cheat on him?

*You say people who are 'promiscuous' before a relationship make poor partners. Lummel already demonstrated that the word 'promiscuous' is a judgement, and is by itself, not very helpful. How many is too many? Four? Twelve? And does it matter whether I am male or female?

Well yes, how many is "many"? As long as it is plural, it's many?

[Elder Sister]

0.o

Well, thanks for that, I guess. Perhaps I should tell my husband I need to divorce him now because I am bound to cheat on him?

Well yes, how many is "many"? As long as it is plural, it's many?

Yeah, exactly. I think I have totally turned into a feminazi but I think it's valuable for us to have these discussions. So much of how we view these characters is how we view people in real life.

Anytime I am questioning things and reassessing why I feel this way, and why I'm making that judgement, that's a good thing. :)

And being a feminist is not a bad thing.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

0.o

Well, thanks for that, I guess. Perhaps I should tell my husband I need to divorce him now because I am bound to cheat on him?

Well yes, how many is "many"? As long as it is plural, it's many?

if that is what you want, go ahead. Never said you are bound to cheat on him. I merely said for such people, it is an easier thing to do. And as said, forgot to tell it's my opinion.

Seriously? You think people who have what you call 'promiscuous' sex make bad future partners? I want to talk about this, if you don't mind. And let me say for the sake of disclosure, that I am highly religious, would make a great Quaker, and am married for twenty + years, and never been unfaithful to my spouse. :)

*You say people who are 'promiscuous' before a relationship make poor partners. Lummel already demonstrated that the word 'promiscuous' is a judgement, and is by itself, not very helpful. How many is too many? Four? Twelve? And does it matter whether I am male or female?

I'm not sure what exactly is too many for me, but twelve is definitely too much. I'll start at least at four, I'd say. As I said multiple times before, it doesn't matter whether you're male or female. How many times do I have to say that, for you people to understand?

*I don't follow how a person's romantic history with regards to number equates to a propensity towards divorce. I think it's more an indicator that divorce is easier, with less ramifications, and people don't view marriage in the same way as they did say, fifty years ago. Not good, necessarily, but I do think it's a good thing that a woman has more avenues available to her now with regards to divorce.

Of course divorce has become easier, but the reasons to divorce have also become 'easier'. Agreed on the bold part.

And Lummel brings up another good point. These men that Cersei had sex with are never viewed as being promiscuous themselves, in point of fact, we place no judgement on them at all. I don't include Lancel in this because he was underage and that whole deal skeeved me out and is a topic for another day. :)

That they are not viewed as being promiscuous themselves isn't my opinion, those are clearly opinions of other people. Robert Baratheon is clearly promiscuous, Jaime Lannister clearly isn't, Kettleblack, well, I assume he is. I do judge them for that as characters.

Here I am, a girl with some opinions, having to do a presentation at four o'clock which I still have to prepare, discussing about said opinions. Great. :P You all must like me very much now.

[fiekie]

How many sexual partners one decides to have is one's own business. However, there are some who theorize that it's better for a society (as a whole) if one has only one sexual partner (less disease etc).

The definition of "promiscuity" is also very vague (for obvious reasons). Most dictionaries define it as a tendency to indiscriminently mingle with mulitple partners on a casual basis. So the numbers don't really count. If you carefully choose a hundred partners throughout your lifetime and have a serious and yes sexual relationship with all of them; per the dictionary definition you are not promiscuous.

I would describe Cercei's sexual behavious as closer to prostitution than promiscuity. She uses sex as a bargaining tool. Sex for {enter whatever she wants in return}. Her relationship with Jaime was a mutual and consensual relationship. Her sexual relationship with robert was abuse to the point of rape.

So basically she had:

• ONE serious, consensual sexual relationship
  
• One abusive relationship with a guy that basically repeatedly raped her
  
• Two *"transactional" relationships (*for lack of better word)
  
• One fling (lancel)
  
• And moon boy (who knows what that was about anyway :dunno: )
  

In contrast, I would call Theon promiscuous.

[straits]

Welcome to the Death Camp of Tolerance.

[ARYa_Nym]

I think Taena should count because for example we wouldn't say that Renly didn't really have sex with Loras. Cersei couldn't penetrate her with a penis but I think homosexual sex is just as legitimate as heterosexual sex (not that the reverse was implied).

EDIT: Although it could be me not completely remembering the scene because I don't remember if it was just fingering or included oral sex.