Cersei and Sexuality

[Mikkel]

Except that it's not, exactly. It is a very widespread norm to view promiscuity in women as bad while wholeheartedly encouraging it in men. So when you talk about it being a norm, you can't help but evoke that double standard, even if you personally don't share it.

Are we talking in the fictional world of ASOIAF or our own? Because in my part of the world, at least, that view as a commonly accepted norm is 60-70 years out of date, at the very least.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

Except that it's not, exactly. It is a very widespread norm to view promiscuity in women as bad while wholeheartedly encouraging it in men. So when you talk about it being a norm, you can't help but evoke that double standard, even if you personally don't share it.

I don't think it's that much appreciated when a man is promiscuous though. I never saw anyone encouraging it in men (I don't know about men themselves, they probably do ;) ) Well, wasn't my intention to evoke some double standard, that's just your opinion and interpretation of my words I think. I, for one, don't have that double standard, as I already stated before. (:

[Lady Sansa Stark]

Are we talking in the fictional world of ASOIAF or our own? Because in my part of the world, at least, that view as a commonly accepted norm is 60-70 years out of date, at the very least.

I was talking about the real world here. I thought we all were when talking about the promiscuity and incest and that, in my opinion, it is bad. (:

[ARYa_Nym]

. Marie Antoinette promiscuity doesn't play a role in my slightly dislike for her, since my dislike for her stems out the fact that she squandered A LOT of money while the rest of France was starving.

This is exactly why I can't stand her. Also, I read that her brother and mother told her to stop her foolishness but she would not listen.

On topic, what I have a problem with is more her incompetence and the high treason that she committed in passing off illegitimate as heirs. Sure she can sleep with Jaime. Sure she has the right to not want to have Robert's children but she took it too far for me to agree with her actions.

[Mikkel]

I was talking about the real world here. I thought we all were when talking about the promiscuity and incest and that, in my opinion, it is bad. (:

Right, I thought as much, it's just that the view that it's ok for men to be promiscuous is, well, medieval, so the quote from "mormont" above made me unsure.

[mormont]

Right, I thought as much, it's just that the view that it's ok for men to be promiscuous is, well, medieval, so the quote from "mormont" above made me unsure.

I don't want to get off-topic, but in much of the world I'm afraid this is still very much true, however 'medieval' it may seem.

[Mikkel]

I don't want to get off-topic, but in much of the world I'm afraid this is still very much true, however 'medieval' it may seem.

You're right, and you certainly do have a point that norms are not the same everywhere in the world.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

I don't want to get off-topic, but in much of the world I'm afraid this is still very much true, however 'medieval' it may seem.

Of course, but nevertheless, the norm is widely known, while not being accepted in the whole world. That's why I thought it was somewhat weird that Lyanna Stark was kinda baffled by my statement, since she ought to know quite a few people accept this norm of promiscuity being 'a bad thing'. I, for one, wouldn't accept it from a boyfriend or husband, nor from a normal friend.

[Lyanna Stark]

Of course, but nevertheless, the norm is widely known, while not being accepted in the whole world. That's why I thought it was somewhat weird that Lyanna Stark was kinda baffled by my statement, since she ought to know quite a few people accept this norm of promiscuity being 'a bad thing'. I, for one, wouldn't accept it from a boyfriend or husband, nor from a normal friend.

Lots of norms that used to be seen as ok are widely known, but hardly seen as being the norms today. Only 30-40 years ago (where I live, which is a comoparably very liberal country), it was the norm that women should be stay at home mothers, and a working mother was seen as unnatural and unfeminine. This norm is to some degree perpetuated today and is definitely widely known. But is it morally right just because it is widely known or because many people still think it's true?

[Lion of Judah]

I think the idea of a woman being a sexually domineering figure has never been socially accepted. I get Lady Sansa Stark's point and from that aspect I agree with her, which is partially why I started the thread. I was very curious to know if readers felt that these qualities are used to further vilify Cersei and was it fair.

I believe other posters brought up the fact that she uses the weapons available to her to play a game that is severely tilted against her. It is unfair that such qualities are the highlight of a man's character and the stain of a woman's. If not for her methods would she still be alive? At the end of the day every characters goal is self perseverance.

Promiscuity is never a good character trait male or female, unfortunately we still have quite a ways to go in evening the scale. I love these books because they lead to discussions that you never thought would be possible. Plus a break from the "who is the best fighter" threads is a plus.

[Elder Sister]

The point that Lyanna and Mormont bring up is one of the very reasons there is so much hatred against Cersei, IMO. There is a very distinct judgment made against Cersei because she is sexually promiscuous, and it comes up over and over again, and is referenced in nearly every post about her.

On the other hand, we have Tyrion, who is the most promiscuous character in the book, Stannis, who is married and sleeping with Melisandre, and Littlefinger who actually owns brothels.

These points about these three characters almost never come up compared to the frequency of jabs made about Cersei's promiscuity.

I think the difference is it is much more acceptable to be a sexual animal if you're male.

[Lion of Judah]

The point that Lyanna and Mormont bring up is one of the very reasons there is so much hatred against Cersei, IMO. There is a very distinct judgment made against Cersei because she is sexually promiscuous, and it comes up over and over again, and is referenced in nearly every post about her.

On the other hand, we have Tyrion, who is the most promiscuous character in the book, Stannis, who is married and sleeping with Melisandre, and Littlefinger who actually owns brothels.

These points about these three characters almost never come up compared to the frequency of jabs made about Cersei's promiscuity.

I think the difference is it is much more acceptable to be a sexual animal if you're male.

:agree:

[Lummel]

Cersei is sexually promiscuous? You're promiscuous if you have had sex with four different people during your life?

The hurdle is clearly much lower than I would have thought.

[ARYa_Nym]

I do think that characters are shamed like I've read reasons for Jon not being able to be with Arianne or Dany is because they are too loose.

Yet we have Sansa as the fandom bicycle who is virginally pure. The fandom loves shipping her with everyone but they won't do it for the older female characters who are in charge of their sexuality. Dany gets shipped with not that many people and Arianne with no one.

As far as Cersei's specific sexual exploits she's not that promiscuous and unlike a character like say Asha she gets no enjoyment out of it unless with Jaime which may be out of narcissism. I found the Taena scene strange too.

[Elder Sister]

Cersei is sexually promiscuous? You're promiscuous if you have had sex with four different people during your life?

The hurdle is clearly much lower than I would have thought.

You know you are one of my favorite posters, right? :)

[Lyanna Stark]

I think the difference is it is much more acceptable to be a sexual animal if you're male.

:agree:

There's also the curiosity that female promiscuity is not only looked down upon more, but is also defined with harsher limits. Men who have several partners often get a pass, while comparably, women with several partners are seen as more suspicious and worhty of contempt.

For instance, there is a lot of complaint on this board about Dany taking Daario as a lover, how it's silly, immature, too promiscuous, etc. But he's only the second man she ever sleeps with. And the first was her husband, a man she was sold to in marriage.

Cersei, too, hardly has a enormous amount of partners. At age 35ish after having been sexually active for 20 years, she's slept with Jaime, Robert, Lancel and two of the Kettleblacks***. That's five in total, and six if you count Taena Merryweather. Apart from Jaime, she also sleeps with the rest after Robert is dead, meaning she is a widow, and technically "single".

***if we assume only one Kettleblack then the total is five, counting Taena Merryweather.

[straits]

Of course, but nevertheless, the norm is widely known, while not being accepted in the whole world. That's why I thought it was somewhat weird that Lyanna Stark was kinda baffled by my statement, since she ought to know quite a few people accept this norm of promiscuity being 'a bad thing'. I, for one, wouldn't accept it from a boyfriend or husband, nor from a normal friend.

A lot of people view promiscuity as negative because it casts doubt on whether this person can stay faithful to anyone at all. And a particularly promiscuous person kind of defines sex as being nothing but the physical, which I think many don't like.

Having said that, male promiscuity is disturbingly promoted, both by men and women. Maybe it differs in different social settings, but as far as student life is concerned, the more sexually experienced (easy to achieve through promiscuity) a guy is, the higher his 'chances'.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

Lots of norms that used to be seen as ok are widely known, but hardly seen as being the norms today. Only 30-40 years ago (where I live, which is a comoparably very liberal country), it was the norm that women should be stay at home mothers, and a working mother was seen as unnatural and unfeminine. This norm is to some degree perpetuated today and is definitely widely known. But is it morally right just because it is widely known or because many people still think it's true?

For people who still hold those norms, it is morally right. To you and me; it isn't. People think things are morally right when they believe it is morally right. Power resides where men believe it resides, remember?

I still don't think you know exactly what I mean when I say a norm is widely known and that I was quite surprised you were baffled by my opinion.

[Mikkel]

The point that Lyanna and Mormont bring up is one of the very reasons there is so much hatred against Cersei, IMO. There is a very distinct judgment made against Cersei because she is sexually promiscuous, and it comes up over and over again, and is referenced in nearly every post about her.

On the other hand, we have Tyrion, who is the most promiscuous character in the book, Stannis, who is married and sleeping with Melisandre, and Littlefinger who actually owns brothels.

These points about these three characters almost never come up compared to the frequency of jabs made about Cersei's promiscuity.

I think the difference is it is much more acceptable to be a sexual animal if you're male.

It may be brought up often, because it is a defining part of her character, but there are plenty of perfectly good reasons to dislike Cercei other than her sexual habits. Arianne Martell, for instance, is no stranger to the bedchamber either, but I don't think anyone hate her for that ? Daenerys, on the other hand, faces a fair bit of bashing for her endless pining for Daario, but that's more to do with the fact that it's annoying to hear (read) about, rather than anyone being against it, per se.

[Lyanna Stark]

Cersei is sexually promiscuous? You're promiscuous if you have had sex with four different people during your life?

The hurdle is clearly much lower than I would have thought.

The hurdle for female characters definitely seems to be low, as Dany gets slutshamed after two!

For people who still hold those norms, it is morally right. To you and me; it isn't. People think things are morally right when they believe it is morally right. Power resides where men believe it resides, remember?

I still don't think you know exactly what I mean when I say a norm is widely known and that I was quite surprised you were baffled by my opinion.

Because I didn't ask why people believed it was morally right or why it has historically been a norm, but why you thought promiscuity is bad, because personally I have never really understood why two adult people having consensual sex is a moral ill that should be condemned.