Cersei and Sexuality

[Zar Lannister]

I'm not advocating infidelity, but Robert was about the worst spouse I can think of in aSoIaF other than Gregor Clegane and Ramsay Bolton.

Both Robert and Cersei were terribly broken. At the same time, the idea of a King being unable to bed his wife was a bit of a social stigma in Westeros (see Renly in the TV-Series). Then again, Robert never knew his wife wasn't sleeping with him, she managed to outsmart him for quite a long time.

Back to the topic, another poster brought up Robert. I would assume he would be judged much more harshly for his promiscuity considering he left babies over every hill and vale with poor women, yet it's seldom ever mentioned.

A few of these offspring weren't around Robert not because Robert didn't want to acknowledge them (Mya Stone, Edric Storm, and Gendry stand out here) but because Cersei would have their heads... there's that line about a death threat for bringing one of his daughters to court, and the death of the Casterly Rock twins, which is rumoured to have been ordered by Cersei.

[Florina Laufeyson]

I didn't have a problem with Cersei's sexuality in and of itself. Even her relationship with Jaime, which I felt was gross, I could accept because they were consenting adults and she had been forced into a loveless and abusive marriage.

The problem I had was with how utterly hypocritical she was towards tolerating other people's sexuality, and the explotation she engineered out of other people's sexuality. It's effectively her go to attack in the series. First with Tyrion, then with Margaery and Taena Merryweather.

How can someone so brazenly oppressed by the sexual mores of her own society be such a monster in condemning that behaviour in other people?

Yes. Very much. I dont give many craps about her sleeping with people. Its the fact she endorses the hideous double standard here. "Shes been fucking Lancel, Kettleblack, and Moonboy for all I know." but then she will turn around and say Margaery is a dirty slut (with little proof.) and thats just not cool with me.

I had to get used to the whole Jaime/Cersei thing because incest is squick but since they appeared to love each other and were consenting, my suspension of disbelief was not broken.

Oh, by the way: If male promiscuity was so encouraged and popular, wouldn't old King Bob be hailed as the epitome of amazingness? Which he obviously isn't.

Exactly. Robert's sexual adventures are well known in the realm and i dont recall ever seeing anyone in the story lifting a pint to him for such. In fact, its like "Dude has bastards everywhere." and Ned remembers Lyanna going "He cant keep to one bed." This is not praise for Robert. Its the opposite.

If one views Cersei as a villain then its Cersei's attitudes and actions that vilify her, not the sex acts.

That is certainly how i see it. The ones Cersei had sex with were consenting. Its not a big deal. Its her attitude and actions and manipulation of people and her idiocy in trusting dodgy people and just being horribly unpleasant that bothers me.

[James Arryn]

Mostly, when people are being promiscuous before they marry or have a 'fixed' relationship, it's easier for them to be adulterous in their relationship as well.

I don't agree at all.

Adultery (if you mean sex outside of a relationship done in secret) is an issue about honesty, not about sex.

I've been pretty promiscuous in my life, and more I've been the 'other man' a ton, but I've never cheated on anyone, or even come close. And as someone who was the 'other man' a lot, I can say that for me the real 'cheating' takes place as soon as a person is lying to their partner. After that betrayal takes place, the sex is pretty much a matter of course.

People who have a practice of being dishonest are more likely to become cheaters than people who were promiscuous. For one thing, the latter isn't by definition necessarily likely to get into a monogomous relationship they don't mean to honor, whereas the latter's more concerned about what they can hide.

[Lyanna Stark]

I suppose the word promiscuous is used rather liberally, but in said context it is considering the fact that she is married. You do highlight a point that I never considered though and that is exactly how many partners Cersei actually had, that number doesn't imply promiscuity at all.

But she is not married when she sleeps with Lancel, the Kettleblack brother and Taena. It's only Jaime she "cheats" on Robert with.

[mormont]

Yes. Very much. I dont give many craps about her sleeping with people. Its the fact she endorses the hideous double standard here. "Shes been fucking Lancel, Kettleblack, and Moonboy for all I know." but then she will turn around and say Margaery is a dirty slut (with little proof.) and thats just not cool with me.

I see this as an illustration of the problem that almost defines Cersei's struggles; she hates the patriarchal structure and mores of Westerosi society, because they cripple her, but at the same time she can't escape from them. She is a captive of that point of view, which she both hates and works within. She tries to gain power using the weapons that a male-dominated society tells her are the only ones open to her, but at the same time she realises how fragile these advantages are. Her contempt for Margaery is clearly tied up with her own insecurity over her reliance on sex and beauty to attain and keep power, and her fear that she could lose it all, through the progression of age. Maybe even with the realisation that her 'power' is still ultimately on the sufferance of men.

In this way, Cersei is an interesting contrast to some of the other women in the series - Brienne, most obviously, since Brienne is competing with men at their own game. (Of course, the strategies of these two characters in this respect are dictated by their physical attributes.) And also Asha, or Cat, or Sansa.

[danm_999]

Yes. Very much. I dont give many craps about her sleeping with people. Its the fact she endorses the hideous double standard here. "Shes been fucking Lancel, Kettleblack, and Moonboy for all I know." but then she will turn around and say Margaery is a dirty slut (with little proof.) and thats just not cool with me.

I had to get used to the whole Jaime/Cersei thing because incest is squick but since they appeared to love each other and were consenting, my suspension of disbelief was not broken.

It's not even just that she exploits other people's sex lives, because then I could also see that there's some sort of political expediency to it. All's fair in love and war and so on. But there's a point in AFFC, where Taena confesses to Cersei she didn't come to marriage a maiden, and Cersei immediatly thinks to herself:

You are all whores in the Free Cities, aren’t you?

I mean, there's a serious lack of self examination going on here, to the extent that Cersei is actually calling herself a whore.

[Lyanna Stark]

I mean, there's a serious lack of self examination going on here, to the extent that Cersei is actually calling herself a whore.

Mormont made a really good point above that Cersei is trapped within the system she herself hates and fights against, to a degree. She's bitter about not being able to use a man's weapons (Jaime got the sword) and uses the "feminine" ones, which she talks about disdainfully. Yet she uses them all the same, and then also uses society's mores against other women, like Margaery, or Sansa.

There's also a healthy (or well, unhealthy) dose of projection going in how Cersei views others. Which makes it interesting, cos that implies that on some level, Cersei actually knows and loathes what she has become and what she has done. She may justify everything to herself on a conscious level, but the loathing and hatred she aims at Taena ("You are all whores in the free cities, aren't you?"), and against Margaery and to some degree against Sansa infers that on some level, Cersei is anxious, filled with doubt and possibly self-loathing, that she is desperate to justify. I mean, she shows signs of misogynist thinking, but is herself a woman. She perpetuates the myths of what women should be by her behaviour against others, but still engages in that type of behaviour herself.

[Mumatil]

Cersei seems the kind to like BDSM?

Anyone?

Eh...Ill just go...

[The Dornishman's Wife]

There's also a healthy (or well, unhealthy) dose of projection going in how Cersei views others. Which makes it interesting, cos that implies that on some level, Cersei actually knows and loathes what she has become and what she has done. She may justify everything to herself on a conscious level, but the loathing and hatred she aims at Taena ("You are all whores in the free cities, aren't you?"), and against Margaery and to some degree against Sansa infers that on some level, Cersei is anxious, filled with doubt and possibly self-loathing, that she is desperate to justify. I mean, she shows signs of misogynist thinking, but is herself a woman. She perpetuates the myths of what women should be by her behaviour against others, but still engages in that type of behaviour herself.

I get what you're saying, but I'm not sure about the secret self loathing. I mean, people can be hypocrites without unconsciously hating themselves, and I think that's what's going on here. She's mysogynistic, critizising behaviour she herself exhibits, absolutely... but in her mind, she's just the exception. She would never consider applying those rules to herself.

[danm_999]

There's also a healthy (or well, unhealthy) dose of projection going in how Cersei views others.

Yeah absolutely. She seems straight away to assume Loras and Margaery are lovers, and comes to legitimately believe Margaery's entourage is some kind of fuck-for-power pyramid behind closed doors (it may be, we haven't seen very much compelling evidence of this yet though).

I mean, she shows signs of misogynist thinking, but is herself a woman. She perpetuates the myths of what women should be by her behaviour against others, but still engages in that type of behaviour herself.

She expresses a desire several times in the series that she had a penis, and despises her sex, which I think is kind of misoygny so pure it makes some of the men in the series look tolerant by contrast.

One of the ways we in modern society try to dampen prejudicial viewpoints; sexism, racism, homophobia, is by pointing out that they're often based in an innate ignorance, or lack of understanding. Cersei's misogny is all the more horrendous because this factor isn't really there.

[mormont]

I get what you're saying, but I'm not sure about the secret self loathing. I mean, people can be hypocrites without unconsciously hating themselves, and I think that's what's going on here.

Ah, but Cersei doesn't hate herself. She hates the things that she has to do to gain power in the system. She hates the fact that what power she has is based on her beauty. But that's certainly not the same as hating herself.

[Lyanna Stark]

Cersei's behaviour is actually not really unusual in real life either. There are women out there who are extremely hateful of other women while at the same time perpetuating misogynist values.

Ah, but Cersei doesn't hate herself. She hates the things that she has to do to gain power in the system. She hates the fact that what power she has is based on her beauty. But that's certainly not the same as hating herself.

Absolutely, she hates what it means for her, what it does to her and that she cannot gain power and agency the way a man would.

Hence her outbursts to Jaime that she should have been born a man, and her complaints to Sansa of how Jaime got the sword and she had to learn to sing, please and embroider.

She's also extremely anxious about the fact that her beauty may be disappearing, exemplified both in how she sees Sansa and Margaery as competitors, and how the Walk of Shame breaks her. It's absolutely heartbreaking to see what it did to her since losing her beauty literaly is losing power to Cersei, and her belief in her own beauty got completely and utterly smashed during the WoS.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

Ah, but Cersei doesn't hate herself. She hates the things that she has to do to gain power in the system. She hates the fact that what power she has is based on her beauty. But that's certainly not the same as hating herself.

Ah, that does make a lot of sense. Especially as she knows and has always known how her beauty-power is limited and will be topped by the "younger queen" (though I bet that she has only reached her current level of obsessing about Maggy since Sansa and later Marge arrived).

[leighm89]

People who have a practice of being dishonest are more likely to become cheaters than people who were promiscuous. For one thing, the latter isn't by definition necessarily likely to get into a monogomous relationship they don't mean to honor, whereas the latter's more concerned about what they can hide.

Very true. People rarely seem to have the maturity to see the distinction at times. However one can't neccessarily view Robert & Cersei's relationship as a polygamous or polyamorous one because their society doesn't accept that a woman can be sexually empowered. It's ok if Robert does it, but if Cersei does it - off with her head.

As much as incest is disgusting, her affair with Jamie is one of the only genuine & human traits we see of Cersei. While I'd like to denounce it, it's really not that simple - especially given the precedent the Dragons gave.

[Lion of Judah]

Cersei's behaviour is actually not really unusual in real life either. There are women out there who are extremely hateful of other women while at the same time perpetuating misogynist values.

Absolutely, she hates what it means for her, what it does to her and that she cannot gain power and agency the way a man would.

Hence her outbursts to Jaime that she should have been born a man, and her complaints to Sansa of how Jaime got the sword and she had to learn to sing, please and embroider.

She's also extremely anxious about the fact that her beauty may be disappearing, exemplified both in how she sees Sansa and Margaery as competitors, and how the Walk of Shame breaks her. It's absolutely heartbreaking to see what it did to her since losing her beauty literaly is losing power to Cersei, and her belief in her own beauty got completely and utterly smashed during the WoS.

Very interesting point you brought up here. I had this political science course several semesters ago, the professor asked the class one day; how many of you would vote for a woman as president? I was shocked by how many women absolutely refused to support the idea of a woman in a position of leadership, even more shocking was their reasoning.

Could Cersei believe that for her to be an effective leader she must be less like a woman and more like Tywin (a man)? Several times she refers to herself as Tywin's true heir, at times she even resents Jamie for not being as steadfast as their father.

[ARYa_Nym]

Very interesting point you brought up here. I had this political science course several semesters ago, the professor asked the class one day; how many of you would vote for a woman as president? I was shocked by how many women absolutely refused to support the idea of a woman in a position of leadership, even more shocking was their reasoning.

Could Cersei believe that for her to be an effective leader she must be less like a woman and more like Tywin (a man)? Several times she refers to herself as Tywin's true heir, at times she even resents Jamie for not being as steadfast as their father.

There's a popular saying:

"Women would rule the world if they didn't hate each other."

I think there are some truths and simplifying to that statement. There are things like glass ceiling in their way for example but at the same time they can and do tear each other down which is not to say that men can't be vicious to each other and to women as well.

[Lyanna Stark]

Very interesting point you brought up here. I had this political science course several semesters ago, the professor asked the class one day; how many of you would vote for a woman as president? I was shocked by how many women absolutely refused to support the idea of a woman in a position of leadership, even more shocking was their reasoning.

Could Cersei believe that for her to be an effective leader she must be less like a woman and more like Tywin (a man)? Several times she refers to herself as Tywin's true heir, at times she even resents Jamie for not being as steadfast as their father.

Internalised sexism is very common, and for a lot of feminists it's a constant process to try and find existing prejudice within yourself and change it. We're all products of our time and our culture and cannot exist outside it. Just because you are born a woman doesn't automatically make you a feminist, not at all.

Cersei definitely displays internalised sexism, and she places more value on being like a man than a woman (she labels the Lords' wives in Kings Landing "frightened hens" during the Battle of the Blackwater), she critisises Jaime and Tyrion for not being manly enough, and looks down on "a woman's weapons".

[Lion of Judah]

Internalised sexism is very common, and for a lot of feminists it's a constant process to try and find existing prejudice within yourself and change it. We're all products of our time and our culture and cannot exist outside it. Just because you are born a woman doesn't automatically make you a feminist, not at all.

Cersei definitely displays internalised sexism, and she places more value on being like a man than a woman (she labels the Lords' wives in Kings Landing "frightened hens" during the Battle of the Blackwater), she critisises Jaime and Tyrion for not being manly enough, and looks down on "a woman's weapons".

My mother likes saying that feminist is a term often used, but rarely defined. Many people have a misconception of what exactly is a feminist. Much like Cersei many women simply conform to the idea of "it's a man's world." The thought that they can be women and have a voice as meaningful as a man's is still considered radical.

[Zar Lannister]

Yes. Very much. I dont give many craps about her sleeping with people. Its the fact she endorses the hideous double standard here. "Shes been fucking Lancel, Kettleblack, and Moonboy for all I know." but then she will turn around and say Margaery is a dirty slut (with little proof.) and thats just not cool with me.

Don't think Cersei is conceived as believing in equal judgement, and would use any advantage she could have along the way. Her constant complaint about not having been given the education Jaime got is not some sort of women empowering Philanthropy; Cersei believes she should have been given the same opportunities her brother got, not that all women should be treated equal.

[Florina Laufeyson]

Ah, but Cersei doesn't hate herself. She hates the things that she has to do to gain power in the system. She hates the fact that what power she has is based on her beauty. But that's certainly not the same as hating herself.

Of course. But i still find it kinda janky she will put down other women so much. So yeah im in danm_999's camp a bit here. Its just...wow. Ya know? Sure, Marg is a threat to Cersei's rule, definitely. But for Cersei, its all about Cersei.

My mother likes saying that feminist is a term often used, but rarely defined. Many people have a misconception of what exactly is a feminist. Much like Cersei many women simply conform to the idea of "it's a man's world." The thought that they can be women and have a voice as meaningful as a man's is still considered radical.

Feminism at its core is Male = Female. Equality for both sexes. Some do seem to think that being a feminist means Female > Male. Yeah i do not agree.

Don't think Cersei is conceived as believing in equal judgement, and would use any advantage she could have along the way. Her constant complaint about not having been given the education Jaime got is not some sort of women empowering Philanthropy; Cersei believes she should have been given the same opportunities her brother got, not that all women should be treated equal.

I am aware. She does not believe that women in general should get the same education as Jaime got. Only that SHE should. That only Cersei should be respected like her father was. :bang: