Cersei and Sexuality

[Lion of Judah]

Has sexuality been used as a tool in vilifying the character? Historically it has been used effectively in discrediting the likes of Marie Antoinette and Anne Boleyn amongst others. When it comes to influential women, promiscuity, incestuous, bi-sexual, lesbian, etc. are adjectives used in attacks to cast them negatively true or not.

Cersei has a unique situation wherein all these are descriptive adjectives about her, and are part of the embodiment which makes up the character. So how has these images contributed to your negative view of the character? Would you dislike her less, the same, or do you simply go by her actions neglecting these traits?

[James Arryn]

I think sexual mores as historically played out are less relevant than might be thought at first blush.

For example, in here and on the show, Renly's bi or homsexuality is definitely used to marginalize him, but in the books themselves, absent of Judeo Christian backdrop for sexual orthodoxy as a moral position, there is little of that evident.

Moreoever, there is the presence of a Spartan like culture which rejects traditional sexual roles, and that was absent from real European medieval history as well. Obviously Dorne is more exceptional than normal in Westeros, but its very presence as a narrative structure breaks down the rigidity with which norms themselves can be seen to be applied as a whole.

That said, Cersei's willingness to use sexuality as a weapon is probably in some respects seen as falling into a darker moral zone, but so to is any kind of other-than-upright intrigue. Littlefinger, Varys et al are all regarded with a kind of contempt even while being respected because of the oblique nature of their play. So I don't think it's exclusive to Cersei or women, although it is by nature one of their few viable fields of play.

Now as to how it affects the readership, I tend to believe less in formative properties of reading material on balance. and generally think whatever people take out of the various issues is pretty much what they bring into them. So biases in all directions apply, but are not necessarily representative of the content.

[Gorubahn]

Cersei's sexuality definitely makes me look down on her, but not for the reasons one might think. I don't care about anything she did sexually as Queen Regent (post-Robert), but by then the real damage of her irresponsibility had already been done. I will explain.

As uncomfortable a subject this may be, I feel that it definitely deserves to be mentioned. I am not looking forward to women and perhaps even the mods coming down on me for having this view, but in my opinion it is one hundred percent valid and relevant so I am going to express it.

The queen's body, once she is lawfully married, is no longer one hundred percent hers in a Medieval, primogenitic (or however you spell the adjective form of "primogeniture") setting. She no longer has the right to express herself sexually however she pleases. It is her duty to produce at least a single legitimate heir if at all physically possible to avoid civil war. More importantly, it is also her duty not to allow herself to be impregnated by anyone other than the king for the same reason.

Cersei was madly in love with Jaime before, during and after her marriage and had no business being queen. Was it an arranged marriage? Yes. Does that mean she had no choice? Not necessarily. I assume that marriages in Westeros include some semblance of, "Do you take this man to be your lawfully wedded husband..." and if her answer had been to scream, "NO!" at the top of her lungs then I find it hard to believe that the marriage would have been legitimate. Barring that, she could have forced her father to drag her to the altar, kicking and screaming. She could've run away with Jaime to Braavos or Qarth or anywhere to get away from it. She could've done a lot of things. But, she allowed the marriage to go through and this is presumably because she wanted to be queen, at least at first. We know that she did as a youngster, and what young girl wouldn't? There are a lot of perks to being queen. There is also a lot of responsibility and this is where she fell short.

And even if she had absolutely no choice whatsoever in the matter, to me, it still wouldn't matter. It was done. She was queen. I love my wife very much, but if I had a very good reason to believe that, by continuing to stay with her, thousands of people would die as a result... well, it would utterly break my heart, but I would divorce her. Thousands of lives are more important than whether or not I am happy in my marriage.

Does Robert get a pass for his promiscuity? Well, yes and no. In the context of the books, we have examples like the Blackfyre Rebellion where the king's bastards caused civil unrest, but that king had to go out of his way to legitimize them in the first place and this seems to be more the exception than the rule. But, the War of Five Kings isn't being fought over a whore's bastard born in Flea Bottom, largely because identifying paternal lineage is simply much more problematic sans DNA tests than maternity is. The queen's children are assumed to be legitimate... until they're not.

Even if Jon Arryn had never discovered the ugly truth, I submit to you that it is entirely possible that someone could've squealed to Robert about Cersei's affair before his death and the result of that, I have little doubt, would've been war between Houses Baratheon and Lannister that probably would've involved the entire realm, much as it is now. Again, it isn't fair that the king and queen are held to different standards, but that is the reality of the situation. Perhaps if Cersei's heart hadn't belonged to Jaime since the very start, Robert could've eventually come to love her and be somewhat less of a b.s. husband. Perhaps both of them could've found some happiness in their lives and the Westerosi countryside wouldn't be the hellish landscape that it is now. Catelyn was extremely resentful of Ned's (assumed) infidelity at the beginning of their relationship, but in the end they made it work. Then again maybe not, who knows. Either way, avoiding her problems by banging away with Jaime is not a good solution.

A lot of people justify the atrocities Cersei commits by saying that she's doing it all for her children, but the fact is that if she was going to be mothering Jaime's children then it should never have been as Queen of Westeros. By bringing them into the world in the Red Keep at King's Landing, she is the one putting their lives in danger and asking that they be used either as political tools or become victims themselves.

On the issue of her sex with Robert (and here is where I fear mod wrath), it is my recollection that intercourse between the two of them was very infrequent and when it did happen, Cersei either didn't like it or resisted(?). I am in no way saying that anyone reading this post will ever have the right in their lifetimes to do anything non-consensual with anyone else sexually. I am not advocating rape or saying that a wife is her husband's property. I will posit, however, that the queen does, in a very real sense, belong to the realm, at the very least where her reproductive facilities are concerned, and it is her obligation to provide an heir to carry on their government and avoid civil war and/or foreign invasion. Therefore, it was her responsibility to get it on with Robert at least occasionally and vice versa. Refusing him sexually because she doesn't approve of his lifestyle or because she doesn't like the way he treats her, while understandable and deserving of sympathy, is the wrong answer in the grand scheme of things. It's fine if she wants to hate him for it, Robert probably deserves it, but again, she may very well have been able to find some room in her heart for Robert (even if Robert had done little or nothing to earn it) if she hadn't been in love with Jaime and actively having sex with him the entire time.

Maybe I'm crazy. :wacko:

EDIT: I am not saying that any of this is fair... just the way it is/was.

[secretninjaboy]

In regards to Cersei's sexual relationship with Robert, I believe she told Ned that she was willing to sleep with Robert so that he would think her children are legit. So the impression I always got was that as much as she never enjoyed the sex (obviously) and was seeking sexual relations else where, she still would let him drunkingly go to town on her when the mood was there (for him). She also mentioned that he usually didn't remember the next morning what had happened after he sobered up.

Edit: horrible sleep deprived grammar

[Lord of Cheese]

I didnt think Cersei was doing much wrong with her sexuality early on other than incest with Jamie. She was married to Robert who was forcing himself on her.

The only time, as far as i know - and i dont have an encyclopaedic knowledge of AsoIaF, is Cersei only used sex towards the end with Kettleblack etc...

But the question is if sexuality is used to vilify her. I dont think so.

If one views Cersei as a villain then its Cersei's attitudes and actions that vilify her, not the sex acts. We get her POVs and we can see what kind of person she is. Its her motives for everything she does that vilifies her. But then again... is she a villain for loving her children? Is she a vilain for loving Jamie? Robert treated her like shit so she ended him... does that vilify her? Sure, the Lannisters seem to offend many people especially because they are ruthless powerful bastards who ended up destroying the Starks, and everyone loves the Starks right? => we view Cersei and the Lannisters as villains. But i dont think it has anything to do with sex as a vilifying tool.

Edit: on second thought... I think The High Sparrow is using all the sex episodes to shame Cersei. So there is a point there. Incest is also frowned upon too so that is being shamed due to sex acts. But the incest is only just speculation in Westeros at the moment right? But still, i think sex is a just a part of vilifying Cersei, not the whole story.

[secretninjaboy]

Not saying this was a fair/right/just thing, but she did consent. Even though the reason she consented wasn't necessarily the best (it wasn't a loving, tender, sexual relationship, she basically used it as a way of keeping Robert quiet and unsuspecting about her and Jaime).

[King.In.Yellow]

I find a grander pattern. You'll notice that the two chief players of the Game of Thrones (Littlefinger and Varys) have... unorthodox sexualities themselves. Littlefinger is a glorified pimp, selling sex to other people while suppressing his own urges (at least until he whisks Sansa away), while Varys is a eunuch. He's, as Cersei puts it, dangerous because he has no cock, unlike Tyrion whose 'little worm does half his thinking for him.'

Again, Tyrion, while not a chief player now, certainly a formidable one, has an unorthodox sexuality. His first woman was his wife, Tysha, whom he believed for a very long time to be a whore. He also raped her, quite unwillingly along with the Lannister garrison. He then develops into a person who believes that women will only have sex with him for money. This is probably a factor in his reluctance to have sex with Sansa. Maybe he sees her as another woman victimized by Tywin, maybe he feels guilty that she neither wants him nor charges him for sex.

Tyrion himself could have a mercantile view of sex, seeing it as an exchange. Believing himself incapable of pleasing women, he must exchange money for his pleasure. He simply doesn't think he has anything to give to his new bride.

Regarding Cersei, unlike Varys, who isn't a sexual being (as far as we know), or Tyrion, who sees sex as an exchange (which is incidentally what it really is), she believes sex to be a weapon, just like Littlefinger. But unlike Littlefinger, who has others fight his sex-battles for him, except with Lysa Arryn, Cersei charges headfirst into battle.

Cersei's fall from grace comes when she starts using sex as a weapon against Jaime. Jaime is the only partner she had whom she slept with out of love. When she starts tempting him (towards the end of AFFC) and blackmailing him for sex, as well as distancing him from Tommen, all the goodness departs her. Cersei goes from a dark-ish moral grayness to complete and utter blackness. She's the only truly evil character following the Jaime manipulation.

[Zar Lannister]

Oh Lannisters! Drawing me back to GenASOIAF aren't you? :P

The queen's body, once she is lawfully married, is no longer one hundred percent hers in a Medieval, primogenitic (or however you spell the adjective form of "primogeniture") setting. She no longer has the right to express herself sexually however she pleases. It is her duty to produce at least a single legitimate heir if at all physically possible to avoid civil war. More importantly, it is also her duty not to allow herself to be impregnated by anyone other than the king for the same reason.

Ah. And that is where Cersei's dilemma with the social norm rises. The need to have men to get what she wants. See, in the core, Cersei only thinks about one thing, herself. Her body is hers, not her Father's to decide upon, not the King to dispose of. Cersei hates the notion of being considered a mere breeding mare, and among one of her biggest implied frustrations in the book comes from being aware of the difference in ubpringing between Jaime and her.

Cersei was madly in love with Jaime before, during and after her marriage and had no business being queen.

Madly in love, you say? Nope. No way. The way I see it, Cersei is madly in love with what she can see of herself in Jaime, and upon his return rejects him for not being her reflection.

Was it an arranged marriage? Yes. Does that mean she had no choice? Not necessarily. I assume that marriages in Westeros include some semblance of, "Do you take this man to be your lawfully wedded husband..." and if her answer had been to scream, "NO!" at the top of her lungs then I find it hard to believe that the marriage would have been legitimate. Barring that, she could have forced her father to drag her to the altar, kicking and screaming. She could've run away with Jaime to Braavos or Qarth or anywhere to get away from it. She could've done a lot of things. But, she allowed the marriage to go through and this is presumably because she wanted to be queen, at least at first. We know that she did as a youngster, and what young girl wouldn't? There are a lot of perks to being queen. There is also a lot of responsibility and this is where she fell short.

Again, no. Cersei's bearing of non-Baratheon children has nothing to do with this. It is Cersei's ultimate revenge befalling on Robert. Robert is a king known for whoring, and she confesses to have been happy with the marriage until the bedding. Why until the bedding? Not because she despised Robert (she even found him attractive ar the time), but because during her bedding he called her Lyanna. Cersei's pride was broken right that moment. Vindictive as she is, she refused to make it possible for him to get it his way. He could whore all he want, but he would not have it with her. And he could beat her up and have a hell of a marriage, but in the end she'd have the upper hand, for his blood would not be in the royal line.

And yes, you are right, Cersei craves power more than anything (Martin admits to this both in ther AFFC charpers and through Sansa's & Littlefinger's conversations in ASOS).

Even if Jon Arryn had never discovered the ugly truth, I submit to you that it is entirely possible that someone could've squealed to Robert about Cersei's affair before his death and the result of that, I have little doubt, would've been war between Houses Baratheon and Lannister that probably would've involved the entire realm, much as it is now. Again, it isn't fair that the king and queen are held to different standards, but that is the reality of the situation. Perhaps if Cersei's heart hadn't belonged to Jaime since the very start, Robert could've eventually come to love her and be somewhat less of a b.s. husband. Perhaps both of them could've found some happiness in their lives and the Westerosi countryside wouldn't be the hellish landscape that it is now. Catelyn was extremely resentful of Ned's (assumed) infidelity at the beginning of their relationship, but in the end they made it work. Then again maybe not, who knows. Either way, avoiding her problems by banging away with Jaime is not a good solution.

You know, I think the best moment to understand how destroyed within Robert was is in Season One of the Series. Robert has a conversation with Cersei in which they both talk about their marriage. He tells her:

Robert Baratheon: [sadly] You want to know the horrible truth? I can't even remember what she looked like. I only know she was the one thing I ever wanted. Someone took her away from me' date=' and seven kingdoms couldn't fill the hole she left behind.[/quote']

See, there was no way Cersei could compete against this woman. She was a timeless ideal. Age wasn't going to make her worse, nothing to be done to destroy this vision in Robert's mind. Lyanna was there, forever timeless, and Robert was in love with this picture of Lyanna in his mind. Cersei, proud as is and broken in her own way was dealt to compete against an impossible, and expected to simply accept it as is. And well, that doesn't work with the personality adscribed to her by the author, Cersei is a constantly challenging whatever is put as a limitation to her.

No she isn't. She is doing it for her own sake. I do not doubt however that Cersei deeply loves her Children (as they are part of herself too). And I also don't think she loves them solely because they will keep her in power (See AFFC for her reflections post-Joffrey & post-Tywin). Cersei is an impulsive player of the game that acts erractically when cornered and has proven her lack of sense to long-term scheming. Littlefinger knows this well and is letting her sink in her own spiral of chaos without doing much.

What Cersei cleverly used to do to get around this was "please him in other ways". Robert was often drunk and never really was completely able to know what he was doing, bed-wise. So, Cersei used these moments to her advantage to pretend-fulfill her queenly duties with him. So, in a way, no one in the Kingdom knows Cersei wasn't fulfilling what was expected.

EDIT: Grammar.

EDIT 2: Clarification. I would have added quotes and all, but Kindle refuses to react in my computer, sadly.

[Dimadick]

Has sexuality been used as a tool in vilifying the character? Historically it has been used effectively in discrediting the likes of Marie Antoinette and Anne Boleyn amongst others. When it comes to influential women, promiscuity, incestuous, bi-sexual, lesbian, etc. are adjectives used in attacks to cast them negatively true or not.

Cersei has a unique situation wherein all these are descriptive adjectives about her, and are part of the embodiment which makes up the character. So how has these images contributed to your negative view of the character? Would you dislike her less, the same, or do you simply go by her actions neglecting these traits?

I don't see the incestuous love of Cersei and Jaime as an a villainous or negative trait. For me it is one of their most sympathetic qualities. They found some emotional connection in an otherwise bleak world,. They made a rather unconventional choice in sexual partners, but they did genuinely risk life and limb in pursuit of said love.

I don't find Cersei's promiscuity an endearing trait. Mostly because I think these relationships tend to only demean the character, while causing alienation from people who genuinely care for her. Her lovers of either sex tend to be opportunistic social-climbers seeking money and titles. Cersei consistently fails to either use sex to advance her own cause, or find emotional support from any one.

As for her affair with Taena, I have trouble seeing Cersei as genuinely exploring her sexuality here. I get the impression that she is imitating Robert and confusing sexual prowess with a right to rule.

The traits of Cersei which I genuinely find loathsome are not however her sexual choices. After a lifetime seeking power in one way or another, the responsibilities that come with it still escape her. She still sacrifices long-term political advantages to indulge in petty vengeance schemes. She still doesn't give a damn about keeping the population of King's Landing moderately content, the basics of bread and circuses escape her.

And for all her concern for her children, she tends to neglect their needs. She reminisces at some point that Joffrey was lonely and friendless as a child. Well, she didn't go out of her way to find companions for him. She keeps trying to isolate Tommen from any figure which the boy likes or admires.

[voodooqueen126]

Cersei's sexuality definitely makes me look down on her, but not for the reasons one might think. I don't care about anything she did sexually as Queen Regent (post-Robert), but by then the real damage of her irresponsibility had already been done. I will explain.

As uncomfortable a subject this may be, I feel that it definitely deserves to be mentioned. I am not looking forward to women and perhaps even the mods coming down on me for having this view, but in my opinion it is one hundred percent valid and relevant so I am going to express it.

The queen's body, once she is lawfully married, is no longer one hundred percent hers in a Medieval, primogenitic (or however you spell the adjective form of "primogeniture") setting. She no longer has the right to express herself sexually however she pleases. It is her duty to produce at least a single legitimate heir if at all physically possible to avoid civil war. More importantly, it is also her duty not to allow herself to be impregnated by anyone other than the king for the same reason.

Cersei was madly in love with Jaime before, during and after her marriage and had no business being queen. Was it an arranged marriage? Yes. Does that mean she had no choice? Not necessarily. I assume that marriages in Westeros include some semblance of, "Do you take this man to be your lawfully wedded husband..." and if her answer had been to scream, "NO!" at the top of her lungs then I find it hard to believe that the marriage would have been legitimate. Barring that, she could have forced her father to drag her to the altar, kicking and screaming. She could've run away with Jaime to Braavos or Qarth or anywhere to get away from it. She could've done a lot of things. But, she allowed the marriage to go through and this is presumably because she wanted to be queen, at least at first. We know that she did as a youngster, and what young girl wouldn't? There are a lot of perks to being queen. There is also a lot of responsibility and this is where she fell short.

And even if she had absolutely no choice whatsoever in the matter, to me, it still wouldn't matter. It was done. She was queen. I love my wife very much, but if I had a very good reason to believe that, by continuing to stay with her, thousands of people would die as a result... well, it would utterly break my heart, but I would divorce her. Thousands of lives are more important than whether or not I am happy in my marriage.

Does Robert get a pass for his promiscuity? Well, yes and no. In the context of the books, we have examples like the Blackfyre Rebellion where the king's bastards caused civil unrest, but that king had to go out of his way to legitimize them in the first place and this seems to be more the exception than the rule. But, the War of Five Kings isn't being fought over a whore's bastard born in Flea Bottom, largely because identifying paternal lineage is simply much more problematic sans DNA tests than maternity is. The queen's children are assumed to be legitimate... until they're not.

Even if Jon Arryn had never discovered the ugly truth, I submit to you that it is entirely possible that someone could've squealed to Robert about Cersei's affair before his death and the result of that, I have little doubt, would've been war between Houses Baratheon and Lannister that probably would've involved the entire realm, much as it is now. Again, it isn't fair that the king and queen are held to different standards, but that is the reality of the situation. Perhaps if Cersei's heart hadn't belonged to Jaime since the very start, Robert could've eventually come to love her and be somewhat less of a b.s. husband. Perhaps both of them could've found some happiness in their lives and the Westerosi countryside wouldn't be the hellish landscape that it is now. Catelyn was extremely resentful of Ned's (assumed) infidelity at the beginning of their relationship, but in the end they made it work. Then again maybe not, who knows. Either way, avoiding her problems by banging away with Jaime is not a good solution.

A lot of people justify the atrocities Cersei commits by saying that she's doing it all for her children, but the fact is that if she was going to be mothering Jaime's children then it should never have been as Queen of Westeros. By bringing them into the world in the Red Keep at King's Landing, she is the one putting their lives in danger and asking that they be used either as political tools or become victims themselves.

On the issue of her sex with Robert (and here is where I fear mod wrath), it is my recollection that intercourse between the two of them was very infrequent and when it did happen, Cersei either didn't like it or resisted(?). I am in no way saying that anyone reading this post will ever have the right in their lifetimes to do anything non-consensual with anyone else sexually. I am not advocating rape or saying that a wife is her husband's property. I will posit, however, that the queen does, in a very real sense, belong to the realm, at the very least where her reproductive facilities are concerned, and it is her obligation to provide an heir to carry on their government and avoid civil war and/or foreign invasion. Therefore, it was her responsibility to get it on with Robert at least occasionally and vice versa. Refusing him sexually because she doesn't approve of his lifestyle or because she doesn't like the way he treats her, while understandable and deserving of sympathy, is the wrong answer in the grand scheme of things. It's fine if she wants to hate him for it, Robert probably deserves it, but again, she may very well have been able to find some room in her heart for Robert (even if Robert had done little or nothing to earn it) if she hadn't been in love with Jaime and actively having sex with him the entire time.

Maybe I'm crazy. :wacko:

EDIT: I am not saying that any of this is fair... just the way it is/was.

You're not crazy, you're merely able to understand the Medieval viewpoint a bit better. You are also able to see that it is not malignant but that it makes sense in context.

Actually your whole post shows a lot of empathy for Cersei, yet doesn't fall into "Cersei can avenge herself on Robert because of the domestic violence". I approve

A lot of people assume that Medieval people were a bunch of psychopaths who murdered each other. Whilst it's true that they murdered each other, they tried pretty desperately to find moral justifications to do so.

Frankly the vast majority of literature that comes down to us from the Middle Ages is prescriptive/didactic, even their philosophical attempts to reconcile Christianity with Greco-Roman science and philosophy comes across as terribly earnest. Sure Bernard of Gui and Conrad of Marburg come across as utter psychopaths, but atleast they try and dress up their actions as morality, rather than revelling in their cynicism. Not until Machiavelli do we get anything openly machiavellian. Even then Machiavellis' cynicism is overstated. It may also be a work of satire.

[Dimadick]

The queen's body, once she is lawfully married, is no longer one hundred percent hers in a Medieval, primogenitic (or however you spell the adjective form of "primogeniture") setting. She no longer has the right to express herself sexually however she pleases. It is her duty to produce at least a single legitimate heir if at all physically possible to avoid civil war.

"No longer has the right" assumes that she once did have such a right. She never did. Her position as daughter to Tywin Lannister made her a pawn in complex games of political chess. From the very beginning Tywin tried to use her to solidify a marital alliance with the Targaryens. While Joanna tried to use her to solidify an alliance with the Martells. We never hear of either parent ever asking their daughter.

And in this respect, all three Lannister kids are similar. It was Tywin who wanted to get Jaime married to a Tully. Only by becoming a member of the Kingsguard could he escape parental authority. As for Tyrion attempting to marry without parental consent, well we all now how this ended. With a raped and bloodied teenaged girl, plenty of coins tossed, and a number of very happy Lannister soldiers. Tywin was no more honorable than ruthless Hoster Tully when it came to marriage.

She could've run away with Jaime to Braavos or Qarth or anywhere to get away from it.

Not much of a realistic option. Daenerys, Viserys, Jorah, and Jon Connington have ably demonstrated what kind of life impoverished, exiled nobles can expect. Becoming either beggars, or sellswords and courtesans to survive.

she wanted to be queen, at least at first. We know that she did as a youngster, and what young girl wouldn't? There are a lot of perks to being queen. There is also a lot of responsibility and this is where she fell short.

I agree that Cersei always sought power and probably still does, while never grasping the responsibility that comes with it. But I think this becomes apparent when you examine her diplomatic and political decisions. Not so much when it comes to the child-bearing. As far as Robert was concerned, he did have three legitimate heirs. How these heirs were born is irrelevant. At least till the secret becomes common knowledge.

Perhaps if Cersei's heart hadn't belonged to Jaime since the very start, Robert could've eventually come to love her and be somewhat less of a b.s. husband. Perhaps both of them could've found some happiness in their lives and the Westerosi countryside wouldn't be the hellish landscape that it is now.

This argument reminds me of a scene from a episode of "Highlander". The plot is a comical whodunit on who killed a womanizing bon viveur, and it comes out that his wife. A character points out that the man loved her with all his heart. And responds that the dead man "loved every woman this side of the Thames".

I doubt that Robert could stay faithful to any sexual partner. Whether this partner was Lyanna, Cersei, or Eddard Stark, Robert would still be seeking pleasure elsewhere.

[Jaime's Wench]

I didn't 'condemn' Cersei in my mind for any of her sexual practices until AFFC. Before then, I quite admired how she put two fingers up at her husband and went off and had three children with the man she really loved. Incest between siblings doesn't squick me out as much as it perhaps should, but then I am an only child :-p

I did begin to 'condemn' her, however, when I came to learn how she was using sex as a tool for her own means at court, to the detriment of Jaime. If it wasn't for Jaime, I would be more forgiving, since she wouldn't be doing emotional harm to anyone through her actions. He has devoted his whole life to her, however, and deserves a bit of respect in return.

[Elder Sister]

I have a bit of a different take on Cersei. We're not talking about actual, real people inhabiting a medieval time period, and the work is written in the 20th and 21 centuries - we're dealing with an author's interpretation of a woman who has no real rights to speak of, and is a victim of abuse for years within the constraints of her marriage. Cersei is also a pretty blatant narcissist, and her only truly redeeming quality is her love for her children.

• We know that Cersei has resented her role as the female vassal to be traded off to whatever house her father deems worthy. However, we also know through Cersei's own words, that in the beginning of her courtship to Robert, she did 'love' him, or at least find him extremely handsome, and worthy. It was only when he began abusing her and calling her Lyanna that she grew to hate him. I think Zar is right in that her children by Jaime are a way of exacting revenge. And in her defense, she really didn't have any options open to her of correcting the situation or escaping it.
  
• Her relationship with Jaime, while extremely repulsive to us as modern readers, actually makes sense to me, and like Dimadick, it's one of the things that makes me sympathize with Cersei. She got no love from her father. Her husband was a horrific, drunken abuser, and the one person who was kind and good to her, was, unfortunately, her brother. And we know that the Targaryens practiced incest pretty regularly to the point of seriously weakening their gene pool.
  
• Regarding Cersei's practice of using her sexuality to manipulate others and achieve her goals: I understand why she's doing this. Women in Westeros have limited options, and her beauty and sexuality are the only things that her family and all of Westeros have ever seemed to value. We see this in the description of her father's attempts to marry her to Rhaegar. We see this in the descriptions of Cersei herself, and then finally during the Walk of Shame, her power is gone because people 'see' her for what she is - an aging woman who's beauty is fading.
  
• Cersei's actual actions are very much indefensible with regards to Qyburn. Her willingness to give him innocent people to experiment on is just wrong, wrong, wrong. She has twinges of conscience about it and pushes those twinges aside. I am not in any way defending her for this type of behavior. BUT, having said that, it bothers me how much derision and vitriol is aimed at Cersei on a regular basis, and we have male characters who do similar things and they actually have a fan base, re: Roose Bolton.
  
• Cersei's history shows that she was a cruel, sociopathic character even in girlhood, but it's interesting to me how the events of her life seem to shape her. The abuse she suffers in her marriage seems to make her more cruel instead of empathetic to others. The description of her relationships with Taena and Sansa are good examples of this.
  

Cersei is GRRM's whipping boy in many ways. And to be honest, it sort of bothers me. I am not bothered by her using her sexuality as a means to an end; it's one of the few tools she has. Of course, I'm bothered by the cruelty she exacts on others, but I also think that GRRM is making a statement about women's roles in this time period, and perhaps unknowingly, he's allowing us the opportunity to examine our own reaction to women who use their sexuality for advancement. Cersei's actions are no different from her male contemporaries, only instead of engaging in sex for pleasure, like Tyrion, she's engaging in it to advance her cause.

I wish she would get the opportunity for redemption that we see Jaime and Tyrion getting, but she's doomed to be the villain, and I doubt that changes. She's one of my favorite characters, and I usually root for her in her dealings with the Martells and the Tyrells, especially now that she's in a position of weakness.

[Buckwheat]

Oh Lannisters! Drawing me back to GenASOIAF aren't you? :P

And what a thread you choose!

I think Cersei's sexuality was a way to villify the character especially in the eyes of the other characters. But in the eyes of the readers, it very much depends on the reader. For me personally, I thought her using her sexuality on the Kettleblacks to gain their loyalty was wrong, but her affair with Jaime just made her the interesting character that she is.

Now running out of this thread before it gets closed.

[Quiet Isle]

Cersei's sexuality

Cersei was madly in love with Jaime before, during and after her marriage and had no business being queen.

What gave you the idea that Cersei was madly in love with Jaime? They played house as children, but I tend to feel her relationship with him was one of power. And Cersei wanted, as did Tywin, to marry Rhaegar, which King Aerys not only put a stop to, but made Jaime Kingsguard which automatically divested him of having land or a family - all of this to insult Tywin and emasculate him as punishment for the people and the Kingdom thinking Tywin was actually running the throne (which he apparently was). And Cersei herself admits she really wanted Robert and thought he was handsome and dashing. So Jaime - I just don't think so. She played with him. and used him to have Lannister children. But Jaime understands now................... and i think this is a HUGE plot point for the next two books.

[Miryana]

I did begin to 'condemn' her, however, when I came to learn how she was using sex as a tool for her own means at court, to the detriment of Jaime. If it wasn't for Jaime, I would be more forgiving, since she wouldn't be doing emotional harm to anyone through her actions. He has devoted his whole life to her, however, and deserves a bit of respect in return.

I think that's a case where they're so used to seeing themselves as one soul in two bodies that they can't recognise their views on the issue of fidelity have been or are beginning to be different. Jaime could always be physically faithful: he could tell himself he was honouring his vows to the KG and his love for Cersei by not having sex with any other women. For Cersei, on the other hand, it was a fact of life that however she tried to discourage him Robert would eventually return to her room and need to be satisfied with some sort of sexual act. Jaime could devote his heart and body to Cersei alone. Despite their AFFC disagreements, IMO Cersei's heart is still Jaime's, but she's used to a very different way of seeing her body and sexuality. She didn't let Jaime know the extent of the violence Robert could visit on her. Does Cersei know that she's doing Jaime harm? Tyrion was the one who got him thinking about her infidelity, but Cersei hasn't made a confession. I get the impression that she's thinking that "what he doesn't know can't hurt him" and she sees herself as the brain, the one who makes decisions and has to keep some things secret from reckless Jaime with his tendency to act in the heat of the moment. So it's natural for her to not share everything with him, which has now started driving them apart. She's also so self-centred, so used to seeing her beauty as a weapon and a way to win political concessions from men, that she can't put herself in Jaime's shoes and see it as serious betrayal - much as he can't put himself in her shoes and think about what it really means for Cersei to be a woman and be denied the sword as a weapon or the authority he has as a man, even a crippled one.

In a way, they're both still immature to me. They didn't get to grow up and reach a more adult understanding of love as two individuals committed to a relationship - "one soul in two bodies" is harmful and excessive idealism that's breaking down now that the external factors that forced them to be discreet, Robert and Tywin, have been removed. Cersei is as blindly selfish as a child; Jaime is as romantic as a sheltered boy. Cersei can't see anything wrong with sleeping with other men since it doesn't mean anything to her and is just her way of using her one weapon; she's physically unfaithful but emotionally faithful. Jaime can't help but see it as a violation of his views of love and honour since the romance of Cersei blinds him to the reality of her situation as a woman who was never given the respect and options he had as a man or the martial training Brienne received because of her unusually permissive father; he's physically faithful but becomes emotionally unfaithful. So in ADWD Jaime has let go of Cersei, the mother of his children, while she spends her chapters and the walk of shame still devoted to the idea of their love and supernatural connection, unaware that Jaime has abandoned her and sees her as a whore just as the people of King's Landing do. In general, I can't agree that Cersei becomes a truly evil character when she uses sex to manipulate Jaime, when someone like Tyrion is so rarely condemned as truly evil for raping women who can't say no. It's a sign of how unhealthy their relationship has become, but far from the worst we get in ASOIAF even if the discussion of cruelty and manipulation is limited to sexual acts alone. Jaime does have the option to say yes or no, and whether he goes along with Cersei's plan or refuses it is a choice he himself makes; he's also used sex to distract Cersei, as when they reunite next to Joffrey's corpse and in his memory of shutting up her protests about Bran.

[Jaime's Wench]

I agree with you, Miryana. It shows how much better their relationship would have been if they had only talked to one another. I think Jaime is capable of seeing her position, but unwilling to accept her sleeping around, and there would probably be a halfway point where they could work together after Tywin's death if they had only sat down and discussed their issues. There's a lot Cersei keeps from Jaime. I can't blame Jaime in many ways for seeing things as black and white as he does - she doesn't enlighten him to the opposite!

[Firewolf]

I have a bit of a different take on Cersei. We're not talking about actual, real people inhabiting a medieval time period, and the work is written in the 20th and 21 centuries - we're dealing with an author's interpretation of a woman who has no real rights to speak of, and is a victim of abuse for years within the constraints of her marriage. Cersei is also a pretty blatant narcissist, and her only truly redeeming quality is her love for her children.

• We know that Cersei has resented her role as the female vassal to be traded off to whatever house her father deems worthy. However, we also know through Cersei's own words, that in the beginning of her courtship to Robert, she did 'love' him, or at least find him extremely handsome, and worthy. It was only when he began abusing her and calling her Lyanna that she grew to hate him. I think Zar is right in that her children by Jaime are a way of exacting revenge. And in her defense, she really didn't have any options open to her of correcting the situation or escaping it.
  
• Her relationship with Jaime, while extremely repulsive to us as modern readers, actually makes sense to me, and like Dimadick, it's one of the things that makes me sympathize with Cersei. She got no love from her father. Her husband was a horrific, drunken abuser, and the one person who was kind and good to her, was, unfortunately, her brother. And we know that the Targaryens practiced incest pretty regularly to the point of seriously weakening their gene pool.
  
• Regarding Cersei's practice of using her sexuality to manipulate others and achieve her goals: I understand why she's doing this. Women in Westeros have limited options, and her beauty and sexuality are the only things that her family and all of Westeros have ever seemed to value. We see this in the description of her father's attempts to marry her to Rhaegar. We see this in the descriptions of Cersei herself, and then finally during the Walk of Shame, her power is gone because people 'see' her for what she is - an aging woman who's beauty is fading.
  
• Cersei's actual actions are very much indefensible with regards to Qyburn. Her willingness to give him innocent people to experiment on is just wrong, wrong, wrong. She has twinges of conscience about it and pushes those twinges aside. I am not in any way defending her for this type of behavior. BUT, having said that, it bothers me how much derision and vitriol is aimed at Cersei on a regular basis, and we have male characters who do similar things and they actually have a fan base, re: Roose Bolton.
  
• Cersei's history shows that she was a cruel, sociopathic character even in girlhood, but it's interesting to me how the events of her life seem to shape her. The abuse she suffers in her marriage seems to make her more cruel instead of empathetic to others. The description of her relationships with Taena and Sansa are good examples of this.
  

Cersei is GRRM's whipping boy in many ways. And to be honest, it sort of bothers me. I am not bothered by her using her sexuality as a means to an end; it's one of the few tools she has. Of course, I'm bothered by the cruelty she exacts on others, but I also think that GRRM is making a statement about women's roles in this time period, and perhaps unknowingly, he's allowing us the opportunity to examine our own reaction to women who use their sexuality for advancement. Cersei's actions are no different from her male contemporaries, only instead of engaging in sex for pleasure, like Tyrion, she's engaging in it to advance her cause.

I wish she would get the opportunity for redemption that we see Jaime and Tyrion getting, but she's doomed to be the villain, and I doubt that changes. She's one of my favorite characters, and I usually root for her in her dealings with the Martells and the Tyrells, especially now that she's in a position of weakness.

I agree with the majority of your post, I think we are forgetting the fact that Cersei didn't always have a lot of choices in the matter. This is set in a medieval time period, and I would say that Cersei is as much a victim of circumstance as anything else. As a woman of that period, she had few options or outlets, and it is easy to see how she has become the desperate creature she is. She has lusted for the power a man has, but never been able to get it, and so it has lead her to use the things she does have ( her sex ) as tools to gain power over those who generally have power (men) if anything I have sympathy for Cersei.

I see her as a victim, ofcourse she is not without blame. Some of her actions are unforgivable and she has clearly always had a very domineering personality type - some might say sociopathic... but I do think that her life's experiences have exaggerated those traits. Ontop of that, those traits may have been considered normal or okay had she been a male.

[Gannicus]

The sexuality thing is not what makes me look down on Cersei. But her lying, self-centered, pompous, entitled, paranoid driven stupidity does. If all she did was spread because she was horny I wouldn't give a crap. But all her other traits get worked into why she has sex with the different characters she does.

[Mikkel]

I agree with the majority of your post, I think we are forgetting the fact that Cersei didn't always have a lot of choices in the matter.

To be fair, not all male nobles had a say in who they married, either. Some did, sure, but for the individual that didn't change anything.