Cersei and Sexuality

[Tommen]

Not at all, really. For me, her fault isn't that she used sex specifically to further her own ends, it was the fact that she was manipulating people in the first place. If you're talking about the fact that she has a slightly loose sexual identity (I say it like that because it would be very difficult to label her as a bisexual/lesbian/anything), I think that those chapters in which she slept with Taena Merryweather were less about her being sexually deviant and more to do with her troubling self-image. She's always been an important woman in a man's world, she's always resented the fact that she's Tywin Lannister's daughter and not his son, and she hated being a mere political pawn in her marriage to Robert. That's why she imagines herself as Robert when she's having sex with Taena. If you look at the representation of homoeroticism in general in ASOIAF, you'll see in the cases of Renly and Loras and Jon Connington that GRRM treats them with respect, and some of the most genuinely romantic things we get are from them:

"When the sun has set, no candle can replace it" - Loras in ASoS

"I tried to grasp a star, overreached and fell" - Jon Connington in ADwD

Of course an argument can be made that in the cases of Cersei and Daenerys, the homoeroticism is actually quite eroticised and therefore not placed on the same pedestal, hence the female/female sex takes on a different and more demeaning character. But honestly, I think GRRM just likes hot lesbian sex as much as the rest of us do, nothing wrong with that.

[Kolantero]

The sexuality thing is not what makes me look down on Cersei. But her lying, self-centered, pompous, entitled, paranoid driven stupidity does. If all she did was spread because she was horny I wouldn't give a crap. But all her other traits get worked into why she has sex with the different characters she does.

I agree with this.

There are plenty of reasons to dislike Cercei, how exactly is it infered that it comes (or a big part of the dislike anyway) from her having multiple sexual partners (and not for example the reasons she has sex with Kettleblack etc), I don't know.

Also:

- There's plenty of (valid) criticism towards Robert for his sex life and for neglecting his bastards. I don't get where the notion that "he gets a pass" is coming from

- To say that Cercei is not promiscuous because she had 5-6 sexual partners in a span of 30something years is deceptive. She had 2 sexual partners for all her life and then 4 more in a short period of time and the latter makes her, at least in my opinion, promiscuous.

- The above by itself is not a bad thing (imo atleast) but there are valid reasons to criticise Cercei based on her sex life because:

1) She doesn't have sex just because she wants to have sex but instead she uses it as a currency or even a weapon.

2) Something that i 've never seen Cercei criticized for (although i'm relatively new so maybe i missed it) is that she cheats on Jaime, a guy who's never been with another woman, who gave up his inheritance of Casterly Rock to be near her (and to be in the KG to be fair). A guy who, up until the point he returns to her with one hand less and sees her reaction, is 100% loyal to her. Which is imo a good enough reason to be called a "slut" or a "whore". At least that's the way i use these words (someone cheating around with multiple partners when their boyfriend/girlfriend/wife/husband is loyal)

So like I said many reasons to judge Cercei on her sexual behaviour, not necessarily related to the "promiscuity" thing.

Isn't it funny how Robert gets trashed (correctly imo) for whoring around even though he never actually wanted to marry Cercei, but Cercei gets a pass for cheating on Jamie even though she goes for a replacement (Lancel) as soon as when he gets imprisoned in the Riverlands?

Not that Jamie is a saint or anything. But in their relationship (if we discount the incest which i have no problem doing since they are concending adults even though i find i disgusting) Cercei was cheating around while he was loyal.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

I'm sure that Robert's lawyers could have found a way to put Cersei aside, and if all else failed, the High Septon could have been bribed to find some ground to annull the marriage. There was speculation that he was going to set Cersei aside for Margaery, by the time of his death.

Twelve years and thirteen bastards later?

[Alex Swann]

I think her problem is that she uses people as a means to and end and not and end in themselves. Sexually or otherwise.

So we don't like her having sex with these people - she's 'using' them.

Whereas when a Dornish Princess (I forget which one) is late seeing her father. She apologises as she was in bed with twins. But we don't mention this as being wrong. Because we are led to believe that they are all consenting adults having fun with each other and not hurting others - so it can't be wrong.

Cersei intentions are not a bit of consensual light hearted relief but manipulation so she's a bad un.

Well that's my two pence worth anyway.

[Lummel]

In this case she is using sex as currency so I think it kind of fits the bill, no?

She attempts to use the promise of sex - but fails since Kettleblack has his way with her, but otherwise, no I wouldn't say that she does use sex as currency so no, it doesn't fit the bill.

[Elder Sister]

I'm not necessarily a fan of the TV Cersei's change. I don't know, I think they try to blunt the edges of certain characters in the show and they did it with Cersei with her not killing Robert's bastards. But honestly, I guess I dislike it more on principle than anything.

Totally agree with this - I think it lessens the impact of the storylines: Example, when Cersei is depicted as having Robert's child on the show and she's discussing with Catelyn. Then we have her interacting with Ned, and she's back to being the Cersei we know. Then she's being more kind to Sansa than we see in the books, then she's back to 'as written'. I get dizzy, man. Just write her the way she's created in the books. Cersei on tv has multiple personality disorder. You never know who's going to show up.

I agree with Garnicus. Her sexuality is irrelevant to me. She is a nasty bitter manipulative person. As far as her not having a choice of who she married, most high born marriages are arranged, so she doesn't get the "I didn't have a choice of who to marry" excuse because most men don't have a choice either, see Ned, Brandon and Jaime. She hated Robert because he called her Lyanna, period. Her pride was hurt and he was not abusing her then. Not that Robert was right to abuse her, it appears that the beatings took place after she started denying him sex. Divorce doesn't seem to be an option in Westeros so what were Roberts options in order have heirs? I'm talking Robert the way that GRRM wrote him, not an enlightened 21st century Robert.

I agree with your first two bolded statements whole-heartedly. If Cersei were pure as the driven snow, her actions as a human being would mark her for the description you give her. She's a very, very manipulative, duplicitous person.

I disagree with your last two statements. Robert believed her children were his. He had no reason not to, there was no way to 'test' them, and he never remembered what he had done to Cersei the night before. I think this fact alone attests to what she endured married to him. He was much bigger and stronger than her, and it's obvious that the marriage with regards to their intimate relations was horrific. Her description to Ned Stark shows that.

Robert didn't need any options: He thought her children were his.

Set aside. According to Renly. Who knows what he meant?They could simply have had her killed. I don't necessarily buy this lawyer thing because we haven't seen it in Westeros. Ever. Honestly it doesn't seem very practical to go around pissing off lords like that.

Castel, we're on a roll. Totally agree with you here as well.

- There's plenty of (valid) criticism towards Robert for his sex life and for neglecting his bastards. I don't get where the notion that "he gets a pass" is coming from

- To say that Cercei is not promiscuous because she had 5-6 sexual partners in a span of 30something years is deceptive. She had 2 sexual partners for all her life and then 4 more in a short period of time and the latter makes her, at least in my opinion, promiscuous.

- The above by itself is not a bad thing (imo atleast) but there are valid reasons to criticise Cercei based on her sex life because:

1) She doesn't have sex just because she wants to have sex but instead she uses it as a currency or even a weapon.

2) Something that i 've never seen Cercei criticized for (although i'm relatively new so maybe i missed it) is that she cheats on Jaime, a guy who's never been with another woman, who gave up his inheritance of Casterly Rock to be near her (and to be in the KG to be fair). A guy who, up until the point he returns to her with one hand less and sees her reaction, is 100% loyal to her. Which is imo a good enough reason to be called a "slut" or a "whore". At least that's the way i use these words (someone cheating around with multiple partners when their boyfriend/girlfriend/wife/husband is loyal)

So like I said many reasons to judge Cercei on her sexual behaviour, not necessarily related to the "promiscuity" thing.

Isn't it funny how Robert gets trashed (correctly imo) for whoring around even though he never actually wanted to marry Cercei, but Cercei gets a pass for cheating on Jamie even though she goes for a replacement (Lancel) as soon as when he gets imprisoned in the Riverlands?

Not that Jamie is a saint or anything. But in their relationship (if we discount the incest which i have no problem doing since they are concending adults even though i find i disgusting) Cercei was cheating around while he was loyal.

I don't think it matters if, or how, or by who's definition, she's promiscuous. IMO, she should get some sort of pleasure, because she's certainly not getting it from Robert. She's getting nothing but abuse from him. I think she really did enjoy bedding Jaime, but the others are done as a means to an end. I can't fault her for this; it's her only currency at this point. I do fault her aims, though.

It's interesting that you fault Cersei for 'cheating' on Jaime, yet he swore an oath in the Kingsguard and he's screwing the king's wife. That seems a bit more serious than 'cheating' on your brother with your husband, which is a marriage that was arranged for her.

This sort of illustrates my point about Cersei being the scapegoat when it comes to the sex/romantic stuff. We have a tendency to judge the women more harshly, imo.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

It's interesting that you fault Cersei for 'cheating' on Jaime, yet he swore an oath in the Kingsguard and he's screwing the king's wife. That seems a bit more serious than 'cheating' on your brother with your husband, which is a marriage that was arranged for her.

I think the cheating didn't refer to Cersei having sex with Robert despite being in a committed relationship with Jaime but to Cersei having sex with Lancel despite Jaime.

[Castel]

I think the cheating didn't refer to Cersei having sex with Robert despite being in a committed relationship with Jaime but to Cersei having sex with Lancel despite Jaime.

Yeah, both Cersei and Jaime cheated on the people/organization they were with, but in their personal relationship Cersei sleeping with Robert/Jaime sleeping while in the kingsguard was not cheating. Whether or not Jaime could rightly expect to have a monogamous relationship with Cersei after Robert's death is something else. I'm a bit conflicted on it but I lean towards yes.

[Elder Sister]

I think the cheating didn't refer to Cersei having sex with Robert despite being in a committed relationship with Jaime but to Cersei having sex with Lancel despite Jaime.

Yeah, both Cersei and Jaime cheated on the people/organization they were with, but in their personal relationship Cersei sleeping with Robert/Jaime sleeping while in the kingsguard was not cheating. Whether or not Jaime could rightly expect to have a monogamous relationship with Cersei after Robert's death is something else. I'm a bit conflicted on it but I lean towards yes.

I hear what you both are saying, and am not sure how I feel about this...

Only in the world of asoiaf could I think about how a woman should be faithful to her brother. :D

[mormont]

[mod] Let's stick to the topic, people. [/mod]

[Kolantero]

I don't think it matters if, or how, or by who's definition, she's promiscuous. IMO, she should get some sort of pleasure, because she's certainly not getting it from Robert. She's getting nothing but abuse from him. I think she really did enjoy bedding Jaime,

I was refering to how she replaced Jamie with Lancel just because he was imprisoned, not to her having sex with Robert (she was forced to anyway). And yes she did enjoy bedding Jamie but she led him to believe (and she believed herself) that they were in love, "two parts of a half" etc etc only to replace him when he was imprisoned and then spurn him when he came back with one hand less and started to disagree with her.

but the others are done as a means to an end. I can't fault her for this; it's her only currency at this point. I do fault her aims, though.

I disagree. Everyone makes his/her choices. And its not like she was going to be executed or something if she didn't have sex with them. She would just have less power in the "game".

It's interesting that you fault Cersei for 'cheating' on Jaime, yet he swore an oath in the Kingsguard and he's screwing the king's wife. That seems a bit more serious than 'cheating' on your brother with your husband, which is a marriage that was arranged for her.

Imo Jamie breaking a vow is another matter than what we are discussing here, which is sexual behaviour, sexual loyalty and sexual promiscuity. He was loyal to his sexual partner (what we are talking about) and disloyal to his king (another matter). If we start putting other stuff the two characters have done then we can include Jamie throwing Bran out of the tower and whatever that sicko Qubyrn did in the dungeons at Cercei's commands.

Not to mention that Jamie's vow was only a technicality, everyone (including Robert and Jamie) knew that Jamie was not loyal to Robert.

This sort of illustrates my point about Cersei being the scapegoat when it comes to the sex/romantic stuff.

I disagree.

We have a tendency to judge the women more harshly, imo.

I really disagree. From my experience it varies from person to person, some people judge women more harshly and some judge men more harshly. The only difference is that as a society we are trained to spot only the former.

[Elder Sister]

The only difference is that as a society we are trained to spot only the former.

That's really my whole point.

I do hear what you're saying about Jaime and the KG - and I also hear what you're saying on Cersei's choices with regards to her sexuality as a means to an end.

She's a strange character, because on the one hand, I'm horrified by her, and on the other hand, I have a lot of pity for her. The biggest point regarding her sexuality is I don't think she ever really enjoyed it once she was married. (and I'm not including Robert here - ugh - what's to enjoy?) I think she felt like she couldn't afford to - she was always busy plotting and scheming, and worrying.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

[snip name=Elder Sister' timestamp='1350496318' post='3725484]

I agree with your first two bolded statements whole-heartedly. If Cersei were pure as the driven snow, her actions as a human being would mark her for the description you give her. She's a very, very manipulative, duplicitous person.

I disagree with your last two statements. Robert believed her children were his. He had no reason not to, there was no way to 'test' them, and he never remembered what he had done to Cersei the night before. I think this fact alone attests to what she endured married to him. He was much bigger and stronger than her, and it's obvious that the marriage with regards to their intimate relations was horrific. Her description to Ned Stark shows that.

Robert didn't need any options: He thought her children were his.

[snip]

I'm talking about his options for having heirs with Cersei, if she weren't willing to have sex with him, rape was his only option.

[Zar Lannister]

This thread would well benefit from Queen Cersei I's insight. I wonder if this would serve as a summon to her.

She's a strange character, because on the one hand, I'm horrified by her, and on the other hand, I have a lot of pity for her. The biggest point regarding her sexuality is I don't think she ever really enjoyed it once she was married. (and I'm not including Robert here - ugh - what's to enjoy?) I think she felt like she couldn't afford to - she was always busy plotting and scheming, and worrying.

Well, she does use it like a tool for her ends, as she told Sansa in ACoK:

“Were it anyone else outside the gates, I might hope to beguile him. But this is Stannis Baratheon. I’d have a better chance of seducing his horse.” She noticed the look on Sansa’s face, and laughed. “Have I shocked you, my lady?” She leaned close. “You little fool. Tears are not a woman’s only weapon. You’ve got another one between your legs, and you’d best learn to use it. You’ll find men use their swords freely enough. Both kinds of swords.”

So most of her sexual encounters are indeed not for her pleasing, but for manipulation.

Probably the only moment where one could say she's sparked something of an interest (other than with Jaime) is when she's checking out Aurane Waters, perhaps. And she doesn't even hit it off with him.

[Elder Sister]

[snip name=Elder Sister' timestamp='1350496318' post='3725484]

I agree with your first two bolded statements whole-heartedly. If Cersei were pure as the driven snow, her actions as a human being would mark her for the description you give her. She's a very, very manipulative, duplicitous person.

I disagree with your last two statements. Robert believed her children were his. He had no reason not to, there was no way to 'test' them, and he never remembered what he had done to Cersei the night before. I think this fact alone attests to what she endured married to him. He was much bigger and stronger than her, and it's obvious that the marriage with regards to their intimate relations was horrific. Her description to Ned Stark shows that.

Robert didn't need any options: He thought her children were his.

[snip]

I'm talking about his options for having heirs with Cersei, if she weren't willing to have sex with him, rape was his only option.

I don't really think that rape is ever an option, or shouldn't be, at least. If a woman is unwilling to sleep with you, and you're king, annul the marriage and marry someone who is. Of course, Robert wasn't going to do that, because he was an abusive drunk.

I'm not advocating infidelity, but Robert was about the worst spouse I can think of in aSoIaF other than Gregor Clegane and Ramsay Bolton.

[Lion of Judah]

Cersei is sexually promiscuous? You're promiscuous if you have had sex with four different people during your life?

The hurdle is clearly much lower than I would have thought.

I suppose the word promiscuous is used rather liberally, but in said context it is considering the fact that she is married. You do highlight a point that I never considered though and that is exactly how many partners Cersei actually had, that number doesn't imply promiscuity at all.

[Castel]

I suppose the word promiscuous is used rather liberally, but in said context it is considering the fact that she is married. You do highlight a point that I never considered though and that is exactly how many partners Cersei actually had, that number doesn't imply promiscuity at all.

So..she's not promiscuous?The problem is that there doesn't seem to be a word for a person that is very unethically about their sexual practices. The closest one I can think of is "slut" and even that has to do with promiscuity. The previous generation really had tunnel vision when it came to women and sex.

[Elder Sister]

I think the problem is, we only want to find labels for women with regards to their sexuality. Try to think of a male term that's similar, and you...just won't. We have gigolo and that's it. A male who sleeps with women to advance his agenda would be called manipulative, or dishonest, or cold hearted, but not really promiscuous and certainly not one of the other slurs that people like to use with regards to women.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

I don't really think that rape is ever an option, or shouldn't be, at least. If a woman is unwilling to sleep with you, and you're king, annul the marriage and marry someone who is. Of course, Robert wasn't going to do that, because he was an abusive drunk.

I'm not advocating infidelity, but Robert was about the worst spouse I can think of in aSoIaF other than Gregor Clegane and Ramsay Bolton.

In all fairness Cersei isn't that much of a prize either.

[Éadaoin]

I think the problem is, we only want to find labels for women with regards to their sexuality. Try to think of a male term that's similar, and you...just won't. We have gigolo and that's it. A male who sleeps with women to advance his agenda would be called manipulative, or dishonest, or cold hearted, but not really promiscuous and certainly not one of the other slurs that people like to use with regards to women.

Very true, and a good point.

As for Cersei... I have my issues with her, but her sexuality isn't one of them.