Who Were LF'S Parents and Why Is He a Monster

[Lummel]

Those were titles he was given before he went to the Vale, but never mind.

I'd agree that he's a gambler but we can't say that he's winning since as you point out we don't know what his objective is (or even if he has an objective).

Not sure why you are comparing him to Tyrion, but in anycase that doesn't get away from the fact that his gambling has been, and was intended to be, hugely destructive of other peoples' lives which in itself is pretty monstrous.

[butterbumps!]

LF is a high-stake gambler who enjoys his work and yes that could get him into trouble, because he can't stop playing. However despite not being able to feel empathy he reads people as the best. People say Tyrion (for example) read LF correctly but he really didn't. He knew that LF had a network but had no clue that LF along with Varys moved the pieces around. Tyrion thought him just another backstabbing courtier that he could play. Instead Tyrion was played, and badly lost. Twice, as LF succesfully set Tyrion up for both Bran's attack and the killing of Joff. Since Tyrion isn't portrayed as stupid I'd say LF is pretty good at what he does and has above average intelligence and good insight into people.

The big difference between him and Varys is that we know Varys' true goal, namely the restoration of Aegon (Blackfyre). It is telling that Varys has no clue to what LF is up to (expressed in GoT overheard by Arya), and yet you and many others rate Varys higher and smarter then LF. I suspect it is because Varys is more sympathetic (seemingly, he did after all help start the War of the Five Kings) as a character.

I personally think LF is a mastermind, and Varys is one too, and they're both #winning in terms getting on top and advancing their objectives to whatever goal they're trying to reach.

Wouldn't rule out that LF has no real goal other then advancing himself and playing the Game for thrills.

I don't think Varys' true endgoal is to put Aegon on the Throne. It's Illyrio's goal, to be sure, but I think he's trolling even Illyrio. Which makes Varys even that much more brilliant to my mind.

When LF bested Tyrion in aSoS, Tyrion wasn't exactly in much of a position to do much of anything. He was a kind of sitting duck. It was kind of like taking the low-hanging fruit.

In truth, I don't know that we disagree that much here. We both agree LF's in it to play the game for shits and giggles, and acknowledge that he's a dangerous player, both by what he's willing to do as well as the fact that he just wants to play. That he's playing for the sake of playing is a concept that is really foreign to the other players and undoubtedly gives him an advantage-- it's sort of incomprehensible to those he's playing against, who all assume people want something out of this, and play as a means to an end. But I don't think that this means brilliance on LF's part- he simply has a different end at stake.

What I consider his lack of masterminding has more to do with my understanding of the way he thinks and the anatomy of his plans in particular. They are low cunning to me, and imprecise. He can get away with this low cunning as the guy everyone overlooks, but he's going to really have to step it up now that he's in a more visible position. I will give him more credit if his plans become more subtle, more elegant and more precise.

Also, I disagree that LF can read people better than others. I actually think he applies generic qualities to people and assumes he knows what they desire.

[Scipio Africanus]

Not sure why you are comparing him to Tyrion, but in anycase that doesn't get away from the fact that his gambling has been, and was intended to be, hugely destructive of other peoples' lives which in itself is pretty monstrous.

I used Tyrion as an example because he isn't portrayed as stupid or even that inept at reading people.

It is suggested that LF has only low cunning but that fits people like Bowen Marsh and Janos Slynt more then LF. Or even Cercei.

And Tyrion pwned Janos Slynt, so I suppose that says something about how good LF is.

Never said that LF was a morally upstanding characters. He's a smug ruthless bastard who goes over corpses to get what he wants and yes that is reprehensible.

But being morally superior doesn't seem to win you the Game as Eddard found out.

What I consider his lack of masterminding has more to do with my understanding of the way he thinks and the anatomy of his plans in particular. They are low cunning to me, and imprecise. He can get away with this low cunning as the guy everyone overlooks, but he's going to really have to step it up now that he's in a more visible position. I will give him more credit if his plans become more subtle, more elegant and more precise.

Also, I disagree that LF can read people better than others. I actually think he applies generic qualities to people and assumes he knows what they desire.

Again, LF is the one with the titles and he got what he wanted ever since the start of GoT - marrying Lysa and wedging his foot in the Vale.

So far he's reading (and playing) rather well.

Compare that to Tywin, Tyrion and Cercei Lannister. One is dead, another one exiled and disgraced, and the other is in serious trouble. And the first two are regarded by many on this forum as smart and political geniusses. And that's what I mean by "#winning". Although we do not fully know or understand LF's or Varys' endgame they seem to be getting ahead. Many have already lost their lives and those who haven't (Cercei, Tyrion) are in trouble and must fear for their lives.

Yes we do not disagree all that much and I agree we don't really know Varys' endgame (I agree that he might be playing his own Game but to what end I have no idea).

[butterbumps!]

Again, LF is the one with the titles and he got what he wanted ever since the start of GoT - marrying Lysa and wedging his foot in the Vale.

So far he's reading (and playing) rather well.

Compare that to Tywin, Tyrion and Cercei Lannister. One is dead, another one exiled and disgraced, and the other is in serious trouble. And the first two are regarded by many on this forum as smart and political geniusses. And that's what I mean by "#winning". Although we do not fully know or understand LF's or Varys' endgame they seem to be getting ahead. Many have already lost their lives and those who haven't (Cercei, Tyrion) are in trouble and must fear for their lives.

Yes we do not disagree at that much and I agree we don't really know Varys' endgame (I agree that he might be playing his own Game but to what end I have no idea).

Yea, I guess I don't consider the "winning" to be a badge of brilliance. Sometimes it just means you're willing to do uglier things than others.

Probably what makes me the least impressed with LF is that he's still trying to play people according to the feudal script that has been in existence but is now changing around him. There's something very antiquated about the game he's playing. His tactics are fairly avant-guard are times, but he's still looking at the aristocracy as a single-minded entity, and seems to underestimate a lot of people in terms of what they desire. I think he assumes that people are innately opportunists like himself, which I don't believe to be the case. Additionally, I don't believe that he could play this way with any populace other than in the context of Southron Fools and court intrigue. Other populations are very much not motivated by the things LF tries to appeal to, and I don't think he understands motivations outside of material or status gains. Which will be a major problem for him.

[James Arryn]

ok, i get your above posts. why is he fixated on cat? just because she was his first love obsession? lots of folks have one, but they move on. why Cat? there is something extraordinary with her. let's talk.

Daisy.

[Scipio Africanus]

Yea, I guess I don't consider the "winning" to be a badge of brilliance. Sometimes it just means you're willing to do uglier things than others.

Probably what makes me the least impressed with LF is that he's still trying to play people according to the feudal script that has been in existence but is now changing around him. There's something very antiquated about the game he's playing. His tactics are fairly avant-guard are times, but he's still looking at the aristocracy as a single-minded entity, and seems to underestimate a lot of people in terms of what they desire. I think he assumes that people are innately opportunists like himself, which I don't believe to be the case. Additionally, I don't believe that he could play this way with any populace other than in the context of Southron Fools and court intrigue. Other populations are very much not motivated by the things LF tries to appeal to, and I don't think he understands motivations outside of material or status gains. Which will be a major problem for him.

First part is inherent to playing the Game. As Machiavelli said a Prince needs to be ruthless. The people who (so far) are seemingly come out ahead (LF, Varys, QoT) all share two traits: being ruthless and cunning (Cercei only has the first trait, reminding me of a Robert E Lee quote about John Bell Hood, all of the lion none of the fox).

Second part well, is that so? Someone posted a quote here that LF agreed that some lords cannot be bought off with gold. He bought Lyn Corbray not with gold but with boys. He's not buying Sansa with gold but with promises of her family's restoration.

I do agree he views everyone having a price. He would not understand Jon or Stan for example (which is why he betrayed Eddard, he knew Stan, who Eddard was backing, didn't think like him). Yet he knows somewhere that some people (Stan) are rigid in their ways and not easily bought.

Whether or not they'll end up winning (LF, Varys, QoT) at the end of DoS is another matter, I personally think they'll lose and will end up dead. But for now they seem to be doing fine compared to many other characters.

I also agree that LF is facing some serious issues (Bronze Yohn, Sansa's marriage, the Riverlands, Rickon reappearing in the North, Aegon fighting his friends the Tyrells) and I'm curious to see if he can overcome those difficulties.

[the Scorpion Knight]

First of all, LF is not a monster ...

yep calling a monster is the wrong word creepy psycho is better fitting

I am sure of it. Of course, it's just a theory but what else is there??? At the beginning of asoiaf he was master of coin, at only 35, and everyone agreed that he was doing a great job. He was from a small house, but still he was a noble, so he could hope to become Hand of the King in the future, and because he was rich, he probably could have found a highborn wife. If he wanted more, let's say to become a great lord, again, he could do that without a war.... he had already poisoned Jon Arryn. He needed only to marry Lysa. What do you think he wants? Just to see the world burn? doesn't seem likely.

to quote the series : he just wants to fuck them all

The fact that it seems so obvious that LF wants Sansa should be your first clue that he doesn't.

Lf might be a good liar but but he is a very bad actor

I've never really been that impressed with LF, and in general, I find his schemes inelegant and actually a little sloppy. I think that LF just wants to fuck with people. I don't believe that he has an over-arching goal except to destroy the system. And he wants to destroy the system not as a comment on the problems of feudalism and aristocracy, but as a sort of petty affirmation that he's better than his "betters," so to speak. So I don't believe he wants to become king, or to actually rule anything. He just wants to be the last man standing as sets the world aflame.

As such, his schemes are all about setting pieces in motion to self-destruct. While this does require a certain low cunning, it's all about destruction, which does not require the same skill and precision that building something does. He sets up multiple variables to start creating discord, with the only goal of creating discord. I don't find this particularly difficult or admirable from a scheming standpoint. If the only goal is to destroy everything, you don't need to build precise foundations, or be careful about how you set up your pieces-- you don't really have "assets" to protect or further a cause for. Everything is potentially meant to be destroyed. I don't consider this a huge master-minding accomplishment, but maybe that's just me.

LF's weapons are also based on low cunning in my opinion. He preys on what he believes people want, and by extension, what they fear. This in and of itself has scheming merit, but all too often, he believes that people can just be bought. For example, at the small council meeting where they discuss how to win the newly widowed Margaery to the Lannister cause, he suggests that they actually bribe the Tyrells to their cause with gold. This is kind of bush-league for a master schemer, as everyone else at the table knows that a noble family would feel insulted by an offer based on money. In general, I believe that he miscalculates the pull of money as a driving force of coercion. As a contrast, Varys manipulates people by influencing what they believe, rather than preying on desire/ fears that they already have. I find this to be a more interesting and complex form of masterminding because it requires ingenuity, precision and really careful observation and predictions of human behavior. LF is just operating by a more generic set of expectations of people.

LF's power really only derives from the fact that no one considers him threatening. Which means that as soon as someone is onto him, his power is proverbially castrated. And he's not really that skilled at hiding how threatening he is to a careful observer. Tyrion figured him out very quickly upon arriving at KL. Beyond that, LF does not have a poker face. LF shows off his smugness to Tyrion during one private meeting: Tyrion and LF both know that each other knows that LF set Tyrion up about the dagger, and LF just stands there with a shit-eating grin, flaunting the fact that Tyrion can't do anything to harm him even though he set him up. Then Tyrion offers LF Harrenhal in exchange for setting up an alliance with the Eyrie by marriage between Myrcella and Sweet Robin. LF cannot hide his desire, and Tyrion observes that it would seem the honeycomb is just too sweet-- LF is rendered careless in his desire. (hint, hint as to what's going to happen with the "honeycomb" of Sansa).

Then, as this is recently on my mind, is LF's reaction when he realizes that Tyrion got the best of him with the Tyrion's plot to uncover the leak in the small council. When Tyrion announces that Tyrstane and Myrcella are actually going to marry, LF realizes he's been played. He corners Tyrion, telling him to leave him out of his next deception. He's obviously pissed off and quite reckless, lashing out over the fact that he's been bested, as he's used to being below the radar. He comes across like a petulant little boy, as a few chapters earlier, he was flaunting the fact that he had set up Tyrion with the dagger. Yet now, he's all sulky and whiney that someone bested him, and further, makes it clear to the person who bested him how pissed off he is about being bested. Not the behavior of a world class schemer in my view.

1000% agree here this. "titan" is having feet of clay

[Fire Eater]

Littlefinger never lifted so much as his little finger for her.

I think there is a chance he did, but she couldn't see through his pants.

Daisy.

Gatsby failed to see that the group of people he was aspiring to were horrible. In this case, LF is the person who is horrible. When Gatsby saw Daisy and Tom's daughter, he is turned off the evidence that they did it and have a child; LF, by contrast, isn't turned off when he sees Cat and Ned's daughter, but rather the opposite. He sets his sights on Cat's daughter, Sansa.

Finally, Tom, Daisy's husband, sets Gatsby's death, while with LF the roles are reversed as LF sets up Ned's death.

[Sworn Shield]

Here is just some of the people Littlefinger has betrayed:

• Hoster Tully fostered a very minor lordlings son, raised him amongst his own children. In turn Petyr slept and impregnated one of his daughters and tried to ruin the marriage of the other.
  

• Jon Arryn gave Petyr position after position raising him up to one of the highest offices in the Seven Kingdoms, well above his station. Petyr rewards his Liege Lord who gave him everything by getting his own wife to poison him with the Tears of Lys.
  

• Eddard Stark was definitely a too trusting man, however Petyr stabbed him in the back at every turn. He lied about 'his' Valyrian steel dagger that was used to try and assassinate Bran, when Ned was about to leave the City he took Ned to see one of Robert's bastards and then Ned 'accidently' ran into Jaime Lannister, he pretended to buy the gold cloaks when Ned needed them the most. (I'm sure there are more, but those are the main ones that come to mind)
  

• Petyr plays Catelyn false throughout GOT, he persuaded Lysa to send a note to Catelyn warning her about the Lannisters. When they meet in Kings Landing he states he will do his best to help Ned bring down the Lannisters. He then betrays Ned to the Lannisters with help of the Gold cloaks, which ultimately leads to Ned's death.
  

• Lysa Arryn loved Petyr with all his heart and while it is not a betrayal not to return someone's love, he used that love to further his position in the game of thrones. He convinces her to murder her husband and then send a note to her sister telling that the Lannisters did it. He rewards her loyalty to him by telling her the only woman he ever loved was her sister and then push her out of the Moon Door.
  

• Petyr did not tell Robert about Cercei'ss children not being his and he ignored Robert's last will and testament making Ned regent. Furthermore he was almost certainly fudging the financial figures, therefore plunging Robert's Kingdom into Financial ruin. (He was waging war through economics dammit)
  

• Despite House Lannister raising him up to Lord Paramount of the Riverlands, he assassinates Joffrey with the help of the Tyrells. He betrays Tyrion twice, firstly he lies about the dagger which leads to Catelyn taking Tyrion hostage. Secondly he framed him for Joffrey's murder, to therefore make Sansa a Widow. In AFFC we know he is hoping Cercei will mess things up and is debating whether to remove her from the Game.
  

• While despite helping House Tyrell kill Joffrey, he also betrayed their plans of marrying Sansa to Willas by informing Tywin of the marriage being arranged.
  

• Even though Sweet Robin is his step-son, Petyr plans do not involve him living. If Robin does not die of natural causes Petyr will surely kill him off, as Harry the Heir must become Lord of the Vale for his plans to come to full fruition.
  

Littlefinger is just plain evil, he betrays anyone just to further his ambitions. He does not care if people live or die, just so long as he sits the Iron Throne at the end.

[Sneak]

Littlefinger never lifted so much as his little finger for her.

I've never really understood why she thought this. He was the one who took her away from Kings Landing where she was getting physically and emotionally abused. He rescued her, from her point of view. It's not like he could do anything openly. Surely she knows this?

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

I maintain that the central reason Littlefinger-Sansa thing is creepy isn't because of their age gaps, it's creepy because he's using Sansa as a weird surrogate for Catelyn, and apparently finds no trouble in roleplaying that she's his daughter, but then sticks his tongue down her throat. Also, he's loudly screwing her aunt in earshot. There's a lot of Freudian subtext going on here.

So yeah, the situation is super creepy, but it'd still be creepy if they were the same age.

True, the age difference between Sansa and LF is about the same as 13year old Dany, and 30-something Drogo in AGOT, which gave me the shivers, but overall felt less creepy.

I've never really understood why she thought this. He was the one who took her away from Kings Landing where she was getting physically and emotionally abused. He rescued her, from her point of view. It's not like he could do anything openly. Surely she knows this?

She does, if I recall right, she's confused about him mostly, because he never helped her in KL, but then helps her escape, and because he killed her aunt, but did it to save her.. I can understand she has mixed feelings about him to be fair..

[James Arryn]

I think there is a chance he did, but nobody she couldn't see through his pants.

Gatsby failed to see that the group of people he was aspiring to were horrible. In this case, LF is the person who is horrible. When Gatsby saw Daisy and Tom's daughter, he is turned off the evidence that they did it and have a child; LF, by contrast, isn't turned off when he sees Cat and Ned's daughter, but rather the opposite. He sets his sights on Cat's daughter, Sansa.

Finally, Tom, Daisy's husband, sets Gatsby's death, while with LF the roles are reversed as LF sets up Ned's death.

I'd argue that the horrible-ness (?) of the people themselves were a seriously secondary concern for Fitzgerland's point. It's all about the illusory nature of the Dream itself, how it is self-conflicting and its achievment isn't an end itself.

And Gatsby is turned off by the child because it's slightly too real for his illusion, not because of something inherent in parenthood. It's not like it changed Daisy much. And Gatsby's ability to deflect reality to sustain his illusion is his extraordinary characteristic. Which is why it ultimately didn't make his mind up either.

And lastly, it's entirely possible that LF's designs on Sansa are either payback for his illusions being broken, or an attempt to regain/sustain them, and his place of preeminence in the.

[voodooqueen126]

I don't think Varys' true endgoal is to put Aegon on the Throne. It's Illyrio's goal, to be sure, but I think he's trolling even Illyrio. Which makes Varys even that much more brilliant to my mind.

When LF bested Tyrion in aSoS, Tyrion wasn't exactly in much of a position to do much of anything. He was a kind of sitting duck. It was kind of like taking the low-hanging fruit.

In truth, I don't know that we disagree that much here. We both agree LF's in it to play the game for shits and giggles, and acknowledge that he's a dangerous player, both by what he's willing to do as well as the fact that he just wants to play. That he's playing for the sake of playing is a concept that is really foreign to the other players and undoubtedly gives him an advantage-- it's sort of incomprehensible to those he's playing against, who all assume people want something out of this, and play as a means to an end. But I don't think that this means brilliance on LF's part- he simply has a different end at stake.

What I consider his lack of masterminding has more to do with my understanding of the way he thinks and the anatomy of his plans in particular. They are low cunning to me, and imprecise. He can get away with this low cunning as the guy everyone overlooks, but he's going to really have to step it up now that he's in a more visible position. I will give him more credit if his plans become more subtle, more elegant and more precise.

Also, I disagree that LF can read people better than others. I actually think he applies generic qualities to people and assumes he knows what they desire.

Isn't that called cold empathy?

I am inclined to agree with you: I doubt that Littlefinger has the brilliance to create or do anything useful that would benefit others (say build a clock, or calculate the dates of Easter, or invent the scientific method) although he has mastered double entry book keeping. But that his psychopathy is sort of like a super power when it comes to well manipulating and destroying people, it also makes him unpredictable because he has no real goals beyond hurting people.

I am inclined to think that Littlefinger's mother was struck by lightning when he was 5 and that the damage had already been done by the time he arrived at the Tully's

[ArabellaVidal]

Again, LF is the one with the titles and he got what he wanted ever since the start of GoT - marrying Lysa and wedging his foot in the Vale.

So far he's reading (and playing) rather well.

If that was part one of his plan then I'd say he gets easily derailed by his desire to 'have' or 'own' Catelyn or Catelyn V.2 (Sansa). He manages to outplay Tyrion but only by virtue of circumstances that he could never have foreseen. He plays to advantages that he is momentarily given. As a mastermind, he would have to keep his eye on the endgame but I think that he changes his goals according to how the pieces fall and how he can adapt them to his personal desires. I do admit, though, that he does this very well. But if his goal was Lysa and the Vale why did he ask for Sansa's hand in marriage? What I think is that his personal desires overcome his logic and he tends to overreach. He is vulnerable because of this Achilles' heel. I believe that this is why he will fail. His obsession for Cat has been superimposed on her daughter who is an impressionable 13 year old. While he tells Sansa that she must believe that she's his daughter in order to keep her identity secret (killing Lysa is partly a discretionary act), he fails to play the part that he's set for himself. When alone with her he's a pedophile and this is one of the major reasons Sansa remembers that it is Eddard who was her father, not Petyr. At the moment she's confused. But more and more his actions will prompt memories and attachment to her real father and the Hound. And though Petyr thinks he can supplant Ned and even Tyrion, how can he take the place of the growing fantasy surrounding her final encounter with the Hound when neither he nor Varys have been able to detect even a single conversation between them. Some spys!

[Scipio Africanus]

He manages to outplay Tyrion but only by virtue of circumstances that he could never have foreseen.

That's gambling man Petyr Baelish for ya there. The opportunist extraordinaire, and the reason why he's succesful (yes he is succesful at the moment). Whether or not he will "win" is another matter but up till now he's doing fine.

Yes his original goal was marrying into the Vale (why else bump off Jon Arryn?) and lots of stuff happened that was out of his (and that of Varys) original plans (Jaime tossing children out of windows, Joff ordering hits, Cercei being crackpot). Yet he improvised and grabbed opportunities to better himself.

At the moment she's confused.

I daresay Petyr is confused as well. He wants a daughter and he wants a young Cat from his youth.

Maybe I'm reading too much into all of this (unfortunately we will likely never get their POVs), but Petyr and Varys are not superhuman omnipotent computers in my view. They're humans too. Although Petyr is a sociopath who lacks the ability to feel empathy, he does still have feelings. I'm pretty convinced he will die with Cat's name on his lips, and I don't doubt he really thinks he bedded both Tully girls, and that the only truth he ever told in his sorry life was to Lysa as he pushed her to her death, that he really only ever loved Cat (besides himself of course).

But if his goal was Lysa and the Vale why did he ask for Sansa's hand in marriage?

Two reasons. He partly wants a young Cat to be his wife, as he feels it should have been so all those years ago. The other is opportunity. At that point in the story Sansa was the only living heir to Eddard Stark I believe (as far as people inbook knew), and heir to Winterfell.

As usual Petyr mixes buisiness with pleasure.

He couldn't marry both Lysa and Sansa of course, so maybe he figured that if he couldn't get the Vale he might's well get the North and figure out another way of getting into the Vale.

Petyr is all about advancing himself and I don't think he's particulairly picky in the order he gains boons and titles.

[ArabellaVidal]

That's gambling man Petyr Baelish for ya there. The opportunist extraordinaire, and the reason why he's succesful (yes he is succesful at the moment). Whether or not he will "win" is another matter but up till now he's doing fine.

Yes his original goal was marrying into the Vale (why else bump off Jon Arryn?) and lots of stuff happened that was out of his (and that of Varys) original plans (Jaime tossing children out of windows, Joff ordering hits, Cercei being crackpot). Yet he improvised and grabbed opportunities to better himself.

I daresay Petyr is confused as well. He wants a daughter and he wants a young Cat from his youth.

Maybe I'm reading too much into all of this (unfortunately we will likely never get their POVs), but Petyr and Varys are not superhuman omnipotent computers in my view. They're humans too. Although Petyr is a sociopath who lacks the ability to feel empathy, he does still have feelings. I'm pretty convinced he will die with Cat's name on his lips, and I don't doubt he really thinks he bedded both Tully girls, and that the only truth he ever told in his sorry life was to Lysa as he pushed her to her death, that he really only ever loved Cat (besides himself of course).

Two reasons. He partly wants a young Cat to be his wife, as he feels it should have been so all those years ago. The other is opportunity. At that point in the story Sansa was the only living heir to Eddard Stark I believe (as far as people inbook knew), and heir to Winterfell.

As usual Petyr mixes buisiness with pleasure.

He couldn't marry both Lysa and Sansa of course, so maybe he figured that if he couldn't get the Vale he might's well get the North and figure out another way of getting into the Vale.

Petyr is all about advancing himself and I don't think he's particulairly picky in the order he gains boons and titles.

Very good points and in fact I had forgotten that Sansa was Robb's only heir at that place in the story. I do think that he's master of adaptability regarding his plans which makes him a different kind of dangerous from Varys. I've never thought of him as stupid, just unstable. Varys seems pretty grounded in contrast.

Something new has occurred to me about why his plans might fail. In the early books, LF's base was KL and he was able to freely move around the cyvasse board that is Westeros. At the Vale he's virtually stationary. He cannot now cause damage and then stand apart without consequences. He's now one of the major players rather than just an underestimated one in the background. If the plan falls apart it will be the true test of his skills at 'keeping his hands clean' while in such close proximity to the fallout.

[Scipio Africanus]

Myes two things will be his undoing. He is unstable and will develop ever conflicting interests, which he has been to juggle up till now quite neatly. On one hand he wants to play the family guy with Sansa as his wife/daughter. On the other hand he will want to continue gambling in his never ceasing obsession of bettering himself.

He will make mistakes on both counts and it will cost him his life. Whether or not it is by Sansa, or if it will happen in WoW already, I don't know. I doubt it to be honest.

If you think about it, and this is why I'm so looking forward to reading about those two in WoW, both LF and Varys have made commitments that will alter the rules within they're playing. LF is a big boy now, and no longer just some backwater backstabbing courtier. Whatever he does a lot of people will take notice. Although he still maintains a network, people will react to him differently now.

Varys has a similar problem. He (apparently) moved into the next fase of his endgame, the restoration of Aegon. He, by killing the Lannister supporters in the council en openly helping Tyrion escape, as made his choice, and he cannot move freely now in KL. He still has his network, but officially he is in hiding and probably a wanted spider.

Both will have to adapt to the new conditions to which they play their games in. Can't wait to read about it.

[ArabellaVidal]

Both will have to adapt to the new conditions to which they play their games in. Can't wait to read about it.

Ditto.

Plus, there is the addition of two rogue pieces that are already affecting their plans. The coming of winter has forced LF away from the isolation of the Eyrie down to the more social atmosphere of the Gates of the Moon. He's bought Nestor Royce but he is now more of a guest than a completely in-control host. Plus, Alayne is not going to be isolated amongst snotty noblewomen and lowly maids anymore. She is more amongst women who will look upon her as a companion or even just an equal. His behaviour towards his daughter will be under scrutiny by gossips. He will lose his psyhological advantage over Sansa and by becoming an entilted lord, he is now an eligible widower and that might also throw a spanner in his plans.

As for Varys, I doubt his camp ever thought that Dany's dragons would really hatch. Whether or not Varys originaly meant for Dany to be ever a part of the new regime, now it was imperative that notAegon form an alliance with her before returning to Westeros. Tyrion did stuff up those plans nicely because unless notAegon can win every battle in order to conquer Westeros, he's screwed when Dany comes back.

[MrsManderly]

Joining late in the discussion so apologies if this has already been mentioned...

in my opinion LF is kind of like a smarter version of Theon:

- like Theon, he's raised by a great family and has a mixture of hating them and wanting to be one of them

- while Theon's background social status is much higher than LF's of course, they both struggle to make a place for themselves from an unenviable starting place

- they both therefore turn on and betray "the hand that feeds them", i.e. the Starks and Tullys respectively

The difference is that LF does so way more cleverly than Theon and manages to rise in the world, while keeping the corpses he's walked over to get there (relatively) hidden. Nothing as vulgar as being seen to brutally kill little boys for clever old LF!

Remains to be seen whether, smart as he is, in the end he too gets "Reek-ed" in some way....

[ArabellaVidal]

An interesting way to look at it, Mrs. Manderley. But give Theon credit, he tried. He's just too young to have cultivated the craftiness of a Littlefinger. :)

Besides, while one is trying to reclaim his blood identity, the other is attempting to rise above it.