From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XVII

[bgona]

Lady Lea I am not sure, but I believe that when she got her moonblood was when she reached the "maturity" regarding Westeros law.

[1234567]

Can't believe the thread has been running for a year.

When they Sandor threads were closed, it was a bit of a bummer, but in hindsight it was one of the best things to happen, because the Sansa PtP threads were born and they have exceeded the initial expectation ten fold.

A huge congrats to BrashCandy for one of the best thread series going!

PS. The Next Arya Chapter is finally up in her re-read. :)

[Le Cygne]

Thought I'd pass along some references from the Dunk and Egg stories for anyone who hasn't read them. Some clues to how GRRM writes about sexuality, particularly with a big man ("bigger than Tyrion"!) Dunk is Sandor size, slightly taller. He's also most likely not a knight (there are hints he's never truly been knighted). We've got some familar things, a "true knight" and Florian and Jonquil in The Hedge Knight, and large all over and a dagger in The Sworn Shield:

"You have large feet", she observed. "Large hands as well. I think you must be large all over…"

Dunk grabbed her braid and pulled her face to his. It was awkward with the crutch and the difference in their heights. He almost fell before he got his lips on hers. He kissed her hard. One of her hands went around his neck, and one around his back. He learned more about kissing in a moment than he had ever known from watching. But when they finally broke apart, he drew his dagger. "I know what I want to remember you by, m'lady"...

"I took something else to remember her by instead. A lock of that red hair". He reached under his cloak, brought out the braid, and smiled.

And there's this, from The Mystery Knight:

"Ser Duncan, you appear to be attracting a deal of attention," Ser Maynard Plumm observed as Lord Vyrwel and his party went parading past them toward places of high honor at the top of the hall. "Those girls up on the dais cannot seem to take their eyes off you. I'll wager they have never seen a man so big. Even seated, you are half a head taller than any man in the hall."

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

They've had some very interesting parallels in their respective experiences. Based on some of Martin's comments, I'm beginning to expect that we'll see some future conflict, but not of the personality based type of AGOT. Even if they don't end up working end together though, I expect in the long run they'll be working for the same end goals.

I wouldn't be surprised by some initial conflict, but I do see them working together in the end. Their skills are just complementary to each other that it would be a waste otherwise.

I do have to disagree with the Lady's death revives Bran. Bran was not dead. I think he recovered because he was allowed to be in contact with Summer. I just feel death is a cliff. You can come damn close to it and not have to pay the price. But once you fall off of it, you gotta pay the reaper. Drogo and Catelyn actually died. So, they had to pay a price. But Bran didn't die so the high price didn't have to be paid. I admit this is just my own theory.

[Isalie]

Where is Ned when he kills Lady? Does he just go around the corner or is there a godswood handy? If there was, it would tie in neatly with Bran's vision of blood sacrifice and the idea that Theon will pay for Jon in the godswood. If it did come out that way it would lend credence to the Bran/Sansa connection theory as well.

[Le Cygne]

Indulge me one more time with your thoughts on this one, please, again, from The Sworn Shield. Makes me wish we could see Sandor's POV, I bet he had some interesting dreams about Sansa. What do you think about the braid?

It was the girl he had seen earlier at the archery butts. She had a quiver of arrows on one hip, and held a longbow that was just as tall as she was, which wasn't very tall. If Dunk was shy an inch of seven feet, the archer was shy an inch of five. He could have spanned her waist with his two hands. Her red hair was bound up in a braid so long it brushed past her thighs, and she had a dimpled chin, a snub nose, and a light spray of freckles across her cheeks....

Drowsing at long last, Dunk dreamed. He was running through a glade in the heart of Wat's Wood, running toward Rohanne, and she was shooting arrows at him. Each shaft she loosed flew true, and pierced him through the chest, yet the pain was strangely sweet. He should have turned and fled, but he ran toward her instead, running slowly as you always did in dreams, as if the very air had turned to honey. Another arrow came, and yet another. Her quiver seemed to have no end of shafts. Her eyes were gray and green and full of mischief. Your gown brings out the color of your eyes, he meant to say to her, but she was not wearing any gown, or any clothes at all. Across her small breasts was a faint spray of freckles, and her nipples were red and hard as little berries. The arrows made him look like some great porcupine as he went stumbling to her feet, but somehow he still found the strength to grab her braid. With one hard yank he pulled her down on top of him and kissed her.

One thing I noticed, in the later scene, Dunk "grabbed her braid and pulled her face to his". Here, "with one hard yank he pulled her down on top of him and kissed her". In the books, Sandor "yanked her closer, and for a moment she thought he meant to kiss her".

[brashcandy]

In comparison, we know that Tyrion's eyes weren't devouring her as she undressed, because she barely looked. This is a later construction that is only somewhat true. When Sansa glanced, she saw "hunger" in the green eye and fury in the black, but here in her dream, it is not at all ambiguous. She's undressing for someone who finds her attractive, and in comparison to the Tyrion incident, there is no description of being terrified of barely glancing. And note that the substitution happens at the desire part. Tyrion was watching her and desired her, and dream-Sansa substitutes that person, at that point in time.

I forgot to highlight this yesterday, but this is a wonderful observation. I had always associated the "devouring" with Tyrion, but your point is correct; the substitution has already taken place and there's no ambiguity. This discussion we've been having ties in nicely with Kittykat's current focus on the different kinds of love in the novels. It's clear that a healthy sexual dynamic is integral to romantic love.

Where is Ned when he kills Lady? Does he just go around the corner or is there a godswood handy? If there was, it would tie in neatly with Bran's vision of blood sacrifice and the idea that Theon will pay for Jon in the godswood. If it did come out that way it would lend credence to the Bran/Sansa connection theory as well.

Ned kills her at the gatehouse of Castle Darry, but I think the fact that Lady's body is sent North to be buried in the lichyard of Winterfell is what is truly important, especially if we're looking at the continuing warg bond between her and Sansa and perhaps how Bran might be able to reach out to her without the aid of a godswood.

One thing I noticed, in the later scene, Dunk "grabbed her braid and pulled her face to his". Here, "with one hard yank he pulled her down on top of him and kissed her". In the books, Sandor "yanked her closer, and for a moment she thought he meant to kiss her".

This is really interesting Le Cygne :) Thanks for posting those passages. I know Martin is a creature of habit when it comes to his food porn, so it's nice to have this insight too.

[Lyanna Stark]

This is really interesting Le Cygne :) Thanks for posting those passages. I know Martin is a creature of habit when it comes to his food porn, so it's nice to have this insight too.

He does use certain turns of phrase, it seems.

Another one is Dany thinking that Daario's kisses would be "cruel" and Sansa initially thinks of how it was to kiss the Hound wrt to the Tyrell cousins kissing games: "his cruel mouth on hers".

[Le Cygne]

duplicate

[Le Cygne]

He does use certain turns of phrase, it seems.

Another one is Dany thinking that Daario's kisses would be "cruel" and Sansa initially thinks of how it was to kiss the Hound wrt to the Tyrell cousins kissing games: "his cruel mouth on hers".

And Dany is not at all thinking that cruel kiss would be a bad thing. Quite the opposite, bring it on.

I like showing this because Dunk is a hero, we know Dany is crazy about Daario, and so on. And there's yanking and daggers and cruel kisses there, too, This is the way GRRM writes about desire in Westeros.

This is really interesting Le Cygne :) Thanks for posting those passages. I know Martin is a creature of habit when it comes to his food porn, so it's nice to have this insight too.

Food porn! :)

[butterbumps!]

Happy belated b-day, thread!

Did Lady's death pay for Bran's life?

It came up here in the "Wow, I never noticed that." thread" and I've been wondering about the implications.

MMD tells Dany "Only death may pay for life" and that sentiment is echoed by Jaquen to Arya when she is offered her three deaths. The timing of Bran's awakening certainly fits with Lady's death. What he sees of Ned, Arya, and Sansa in his visions seems to be the moments before Ned chooses to kill Lady himself. There isn't any immediately apparent medical reason for Bran to awaken then as opposed to earlier or later. Bloodraven specifically tells him to put Jaime pushing him out of his mind so there isn't an urgency to get Bran to awaken to help with the fate of his family with the current political intrigue either.

I'm thinking Bran was warged into Summer in a psuedo second life and Lady's death is the sacrifice that pays for his return to his own body and "resurrection." There seemed to be a connection that was keeping his body alive as Cat notes that Bran grew weaker when the window was closed to block out the wolf's howling. My first thoughts on this are about Jon's potential recovery from his stabbing. Borroq, the boar warg that calls him brother, has taken to living in Castle Black's lichyard (the same place at Winterfell Lady is buried) which always struck me as important. While interesting to speculate on, the Bran/Sansa connection from a sacrifice of Lady's life probably has far more subtle clues and implications beyond a single cliff hanging event.

I'm really intrigued by your analysis of this, Rag. I'd always read Bran's awakening chapter "less magically." That is, I also felt that Bran was in a limbo state and sharing consciousness with Summer, but I'd seen the dream he has just prior to waking as leading to more of a "choice" than magically induced. I'd gotten the sense that the 3-eyed crow was showing him the future, that he was needed, and beseeching him to gather his will to push himself through his coma: "Fly or die." (I am embarrassed for making this connection, but I thought it was similar to the King's Cross Station chapter from HP).

I usually favor very human-centric explanations that place events and actions on human will, but I think you make a really compelling case here, as the waking and Lady's sacrifice seem quite simultaneous. I'm still nagged by the idea that there may have been more of a choice element to Bran's waking. I don't doubt that he felt Lady's death; I wonder if it's not a literal life-transference, but one more terrible factor that led Bran to open his eyes.

I wonder what the future implications of either iteration of this would be. For a start, if magical transference can occur between one Stark's direwolf to another Stark, then it means that Sansa's loss of Lady may have no bearing on whether she could have a "second life" (though, I'm not sure her arc is going in that direction precisely). I'm more worried about Jon and Ghost in this scenario; as I'd read the dynamics of Bran's dream and waking as fundamentally an assertion of choice on Bran's part, I'd thought Jon would be facing a similar choice to wake after Chapter 13. If Lady's death was the key with Bran, however, it would mean that one of the direwolves would need to be killed, and almost as disconcerting to me, would it take the issue of choice out of Jon's hands? You've laid this out really well, and I see no flaws, but I'm undecided about how I feel about it (which has no bearing on the correctness of the idea, of course, lol).

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

When I was young and impressionable, the historical romances were often of the type called "bodice rippers." Cruel kisses from demanding lips abounded. There was, in fact, a somewhat similar dynamic to the Sandor/Sansa storyline in some of them. I don't know if this is purposeful or not.

Speaking of food porn, I just had to get the ASOIAF cookbook. No lacquered spiny grubs, thankfully! And what look to be some really good recipes (gotta try the lemon cakes, of course!)

[Le Cygne]

I put this on another thread...

[Ragnorak]

Happy belated b-day, thread!

I'm really intrigued by your analysis of this, Rag. I'd always read Bran's awakening chapter "less magically." That is, I also felt that Bran was in a limbo state and sharing consciousness with Summer, but I'd seen the dream he has just prior to waking as leading to more of a "choice" than magically induced. I'd gotten the sense that the 3-eyed crow was showing him the future, that he was needed, and beseeching him to gather his will to push himself through his coma: "Fly or die." (I am embarrassed for making this connection, but I thought it was similar to the King's Cross Station chapter from HP).

I usually favor very human-centric explanations that place events and actions on human will, but I think you make a really compelling case here, as the waking and Lady's sacrifice seem quite simultaneous. I'm still nagged by the idea that there may have been more of a choice element to Bran's waking. I don't doubt that he felt Lady's death; I wonder if it's not a literal life-transference, but one more terrible factor that led Bran to open his eyes.

I wonder what the future implications of either iteration of this would be. For a start, if magical transference can occur between one Stark's direwolf to another Stark, then it means that Sansa's loss of Lady may have no bearing on whether she could have a "second life" (though, I'm not sure her arc is going in that direction precisely). I'm more worried about Jon and Ghost in this scenario; as I'd read the dynamics of Bran's dream and waking as fundamentally an assertion of choice on Bran's part, I'd thought Jon would be facing a similar choice to wake after Chapter 13. If Lady's death was the key with Bran, however, it would mean that one of the direwolves would need to be killed, and almost as disconcerting to me, would it take the issue of choice out of Jon's hands? You've laid this out really well, and I see no flaws, but I'm undecided about how I feel about it (which has no bearing on the correctness of the idea, of course, lol).

My emotional reaction is much the same as yours. I like the "low magic" feel of the Stark storylines. I was even hesistant a bit with the idea of Bloodraven watching over the Starks for the same reason. With the choice it still comes across as far more human than magical. The magical implications themselves are interesting. There seems to be a connection amongst the wolves. Summer knows Lady is dead and can sense his sister and brothers so there is a connection beyond just the individual Stark child and his or her specific wolf. The Wall seems to block Jon's ability to feel Ghost but not Bloodraven's ability to warg past the Wall though he is a greenseer over just a skinchanger. Not sure what this means for Jon. I assume we'll see a Bran-like state. I wondered if Borroq's boar would be the sacrifice. I don't especially get that feeling, but there is the lichyard connection between Borroq and Lady (plus all that boar regime change stuff around the waking of a King.) A part of me wouldn't be bothered at all since I'm a little Stark-suffering out.

The other aspect is the possible thematic implications for the story. Will Bran be Sansa's protector the way Lady was or at least assume part of that role? It has been pointed out that Jojen dreams of Bran as the winged wolf and Sansa has the rumors that she was a winged wolf in her escape from KL. If Lady's death bonds them this takes on more significance. If Sansa comes to understand that Lady brought Bran back that certainly changes the resentment dynamic with Arya over the incident. I'd have to think more about it but there seems to be a Lady waking the Prince twist on Snow White buried in there as well as ties to the resurrection themes in Sansa. If true it adds a very different perspective to look at Sansa's arc. It is very maternal to sacrifice a part of yourself to bring a life into the world and this places the Sansa as The Mother theme far earlier than Sweetrobin or her song.

[brashcandy]

The other aspect is the possible thematic implications for the story. Will Bran be Sansa's protector the way Lady was or at least assume part of that role? It has been pointed out that Jojen dreams of Bran as the winged wolf and Sansa has the rumors that she was a winged wolf in her escape from KL. If Lady's death bonds them this takes on more significance. If Sansa comes to understand that Lady brought Bran back that certainly changes the resentment dynamic with Arya over the incident. I'd have to think more about it but there seems to be a Lady waking the Prince twist on Snow White buried in there as well as ties to the resurrection themes in Sansa. If true it adds a very different perspective to look at Sansa's arc. It is very maternal to sacrifice a part of yourself to bring a life into the world and this places the Sansa as The Mother theme far earlier than Sweetrobin or her song.

I'm very interested in the thematic relevance of it all as well. Valkyrja has written on the symbolism of the Mother archetype in Sansa's arc, and I think it's significant that we see her taking the same paths as both her parents in KL and the Eyrie - with crucial differences in each journey. She's also currently in the company of a man - a giant - who set the whole mess in motion for the Stark family with Jon Arryn's murder. If there is a link between Sansa and Bran, and she can receive special assistance from her brother, she's in a unique position to achieve some kind of justice for what they've all had to endure. I like your point about the Snow white twist with the Lady waking the Prince. Bran says in ADWD that Sansa liked the kissing stories, and if there's some kind of upcoming rebirth/resurrection angle in her story line, I wonder what twist we could see him employing here.

[Mladen]

The other aspect is the possible thematic implications for the story. Will Bran be Sansa's protector the way Lady was or at least assume part of that role? It has been pointed out that Jojen dreams of Bran as the winged wolf and Sansa has the rumors that she was a winged wolf in her escape from KL. If Lady's death bonds them this takes on more significance. If Sansa comes to understand that Lady brought Bran back that certainly changes the resentment dynamic with Arya over the incident. I'd have to think more about it but there seems to be a Lady waking the Prince twist on Snow White buried in there as well as ties to the resurrection themes in Sansa. If true it adds a very different perspective to look at Sansa's arc. It is very maternal to sacrifice a part of yourself to bring a life into the world and this places the Sansa as The Mother theme far earlier than Sweetrobin or her song.

I had a theory about Bran, Nymeria and Sansa, don`t know if you had read it, but never mind, let`s talk about Bran`s connection with Sansa...I believe that Bran will at the end be a guardian to all of his siblings. His story arc for me is interesting, because at the very beginning we can see consequences of Game of thrones. Just like Dany, there is something more, something that is above the mere survival. His empathy for Lady is outstanding, and I believe that his opinion that Sansa lost herself will make him guide her. And that`s where I think Martin will unite two sides of Sansa`s arc, both political and mythological. Sansa`s current location is very important, because unlike Eyrie there is Godswood, so Bran can keep an eye on her.

And as for the Mother theme, I believe we`ll see more of that. Sweetrobin`s guardian, Rickon`s regent...

[brashcandy]

His empathy for Lady is outstanding, and I believe that his opinion that Sansa lost herself will make him guide her.

Interesting thoughts, Mladen. Sansa's connection to the Mother may also hold literal importance in terms of continuing the Stark line. Perhaps it's no accident that her most profound relationship is with a man who has very Northern looks and ideals.

[House Draper]

This has nothing to do with the subject at hand, but I just had a lightbulb go off and have to post it before I lose it. BUT someone posted elsewhere on the thread that one of the indicators that Dany, Tyrion, and Jon may all be the three heads of the dragon is that, in addition to all of their mothers dying in childbirth, they are all third-born children (Jon being Rhaegar's third). Just realized Sansa is a third-born and kinda geeked. Thought you all would appreciate it. Carry on and happy anniversary to the best thread on the forum!

[Kittykatknits]

I'm kinda rooting for Dany/Daario anymore. I admit. It's Troll Bronn. I didn't like really like him, but didn't really care if Dany had a boy toy. But some of the anti-Dany/Daario things have been so silly/stupid it makes me root for it in spite.

You are a man after my own heart Lord Bronn. :)

If Westeros has a similar law, then she could be of age. Does this make sense? I know Tommen is married and still has a regent, but he is much younger. Sansa is nearing on 14 now, and will be older by the time a reunion with Rickon happens. Of course, if it takes too long and she's already 16, then this is a moot point.

I did the math months and months ago and I *think* Sansa is 14 at the latest point we see in the series during Dance. Her storyline in the Vale ends earlier than many other events in the series. Of course, this means she will likely still be 13 when the story picks back up but we do know she is a bit older.

Also, the only thing I can recall about women and the age of majority is Martin's statements on marriage. IIRC, the time between flowering and age 16, she was no longer a child but not yet an adult - a maid.

This has nothing to do with the subject at hand, but I just had a lightbulb go off and have to post it before I lose it. BUT someone posted elsewhere on the thread that one of the indicators that Dany, Tyrion, and Jon may all be the three heads of the dragon is that, in addition to all of their mothers dying in childbirth, they are all third-born children (Jon being Rhaegar's third). Just realized Sansa is a third-born and kinda geeked. Thought you all would appreciate it. Carry on and happy anniversary to the best thread on the forum!

Heya, Sansa is only the second born actually. :) Robb was the eldest and then she came afterwards. Followed by Arya, Bran, and Rickon. Of course, this is assuming R+L=J.

Also, I can't believe I missed a conversation that would allow me to air my long list of grievances against the show. :( On a related not to it, I did hear that D&D did some focus groups or something similar to find out women's opinions on the relationship between Sandor and Sansa and the show was partly influenced by the feedback they received. I don't have anything to back this up other than it came from someone who knows a lot about the show. So, take that for what you will...

And, happy anniversary to a most wonderful thread.

[House Draper]

Heya, Sansa is only the second born actually. :) Robb was the eldest and then she came afterwards. Followed by Arya, Bran, and Rickon. Of course, this is assuming R+L=J.

Haha! Of course :) I guess I can't have my cake and eat it too. Team Arya FTW.