From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XVII

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

First - sorry about the double post y'all.

I call Sansa's story as being one of the path back to agency and I'd say this applies just as much to Arya as well.It's kinda what like Jon said back in game, different roads can lead back to the same castle. Well, Arya and Sansa took different paths but the reasoning behind them are the same - agency. Arya is using violence as a method while Sansa is using politics.

On a related note, I think some of the interpretation about Arya in both Clash and Storm has to do with the fact that her story is very physical. She's traveling with Yoren then going to Harrenhal then she leaves Harrenhal and travels with the BWB and so on. Lots of movement and lots of doing, right? But. she's just as much stuck as Sansa is. For all her travels, it sure looks like she's on a road to nowhere. She wants to go home just as much as Sansa does but she's going to have no more success at it. The stationary nature of Sansa's story is more obvious as she is literally in a single physical location - KL. Arya may be physically moving but she's like a hamster in a cage - she isn't getting anywhere.

Great posts, Kittykat and Lyanna! I agree that this is why re-reads are so valuable. I'm behind on the Arya and Dany re-reads (but lurking) and of course this is my favorite re-read thread. :) Doing the re-reads have not only helped me appreciate Sansa more, they have increased my appreciation for the ASOIAF books in general. Re-reads are made of awesome!

I"ve posted these links before but I recommend them again as very interesting reading material on why and how "traditional" feminine qualities are so looked down upon - and I agree with Kittykat that the second wave of feminism was a necessary corrective to women's place in society and how they were regarded. 100%. I've read The Feminine Mystique and also Stephanie Coontz's Marriage, A History and would not go back to the Mad Men era for nothing, not even the cool outfits. :)

Julia Serano's website, including reviews of and links to her book Whipping Girl - A Transsexual Woman on Sexism and the Scapegoating of Femininity: http://www.juliaserano.com/

TVTropes essay on "Real Women Don't Wear Dresses" (aka the only good girl is an Action Girl:) http://tvtropes.org/...everWearDresses

And, as a longtime romance novel reader, if I had a dollar for every romance novel heroine who was "spunky" and hated icky stuff like sewing I'd be rich. It's a very common trope, and Sansa gets the rough edge of it.

I agree that both Sansa and Arya are powerless and it terrifies both of them, and they just happen to handle it in different ways. Also, yes, both are on a path back to their own agency. And yes, definitely agreed with Kittykat that Arya's chapters are full of physical action and traveling; I can see where some readers might find that more interesting than Sansa's less-traveled arc. Some people really do want to read about things happening rather than character studies. The mistake is regarding Sansa as weak and powerless compared to other characters because she doesn't travel or fight.

Good points all.

Also, you know, isn't it sad that feminists are judgemental over a work of fiction that takes pains to ask questions about women and power, and women's place is society? We have everything from Cersei's "ridden like a horse only to be discarded" conversation with Sansa (two women talking about feminist issues, can someone say "passing the Bechdel test?) to Dany's musing on the woman vs the Queen, to Arya and Brienne and their issues with wanting what only men can have to Sansa's musings on how she is only a claim and that nobody will love her for herself. Or for that matter Asha's struggle for leadership and her relationship with Qarl the Maid. All poignant descriptions of different issues women are facing in Westeros and what women have faced in the real world, historically.

And it is told in a setting framed by power and what power means, which makes it instrinsically linked with everything feminism stands for. You cannot have equiality without knowing here the power lies and how it is expressed, and ASOIAF is one long examination of power.

It also cannot be said that GRRM is valuing traditionally male values over female, since he goes to great lengths to properly describe the horrors of war and what it does to people. The dragons aren't described as lovely magical creatures of cuteness either, but they are realistically described predators which are dangerous and potential equivalents of WMDs.

I absolutely agree with this post. I see the whole series as questioning patriarchy, questioning women's powerlessness, and showing just what bad things can happen to men as well as women when women do not enjoy equal rights or power over their own bodies. Some of the best-adjusted women in the books are those who are not under patriarchal power - the Mormonts, Meera Reed, "bastard brave" Mya Stone, and Ygritte. Bran (and Jojen and Hodor) would be tapestries on the Dreadfort walls if Meera had been brought up like, say, Cersei Lannister.

The latter is an excellent critique - as I see it - of what powerlessness can do to a woman. Cersei knows how powerless she is, and rails against it, but unlike Meera or Alys Karstark or, hell, Sansa or Arya, doesn't seem to be doing anything constructive to alter her fate - she drinks and schemes and alienates people she should be befriending and ultimately seems quite unhinged. One of the sad things about Cersei is that she seems to have no, for lack of a better phrase, inner life. We don't see her reading books or playing music or embroidering or wanting a tour of Winterfell when she visits. (I'm speaking as someone who LOVES touring historic houses, but still, Cersei could do with a hobby or two...)

[MysteryNinja]

If the usual image of the knight is a man of courage and valor, Martin subverts that image with brutes like Sandor Clegane.

I wouldn't dare use the k-word around Sandor :uhoh:

[1234567]

There is a denial of femininity in the type of philosophy that only sees action as empowerment. It suggests that only by women rejecting their traditional gender roles and by resorting to traditionally masculine gender roles can they truly achieve their best possible results. This seems to be flawed logic and every bit as critical of women as misogynistic viewpoints: rather than examining the fact that both traditional sets of gender roles have their disadvantages and advantages, the feminine is dispensed with out of hand. It is not theorised that only through both men and women embracing the best parts of each role will people be able to move forward. Men can benefit from learning traditional feminine traits as much as women can benefit from taking on traditionally masculine traits.

As Lyanna Stark said, second generation feminism was incredibly important, as was first generation feminism, but they have evolved, just as current feminism will evolve etc. There are many things that are initially a great thing for social change, but then become entrenched and out of touch with the society they are part of, so where the fight for women's equality had a more singular focus in the 50s,60s, and 70s, from the 90s onwards there has been more awareness that the battle for equality has traditionally been based in a white middle class western European perspective and that women from all over the world, have many different issues that are of importance in their lives, which inequality causes or exacerbates.

Whilst railing against the system works in some situations, working from within its limits to achieve the best personal result for yourself works in others. I think this is what we see in Sansa and Arya’s characters.

[Lummel]

Good points all.

Also, you know, isn't it sad that feminists are judgemental over a work of fiction that takes pains to ask questions about women and power, and women's place is society? We have everything from Cersei's "ridden like a horse only to be discarded" conversation with Sansa (two women talking about feminist issues, can someone say "passing the Bechdel test?) to Dany's musing on the woman vs the Queen, to Arya and Brienne and their issues with wanting what only men can have to Sansa's musings on how she is only a claim and that nobody will love her for herself. Or for that matter Asha's struggle for leadership and her relationship with Qarl the Maid. All poignant descriptions of different issues women are facing in Westeros and what women have faced in the real world, historically.

And it is told in a setting framed by power and what power means, which makes it instrinsically linked with everything feminism stands for. You cannot have equiality without knowing here the power lies and how it is expressed, and ASOIAF is one long examination of power...

Yes I think so and it's a pity that this isn't picked up on. There seems to be an emphasis on the blacker side of the books such as violence against women which then can turn into throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

It not just that power is central but it is power in the context of families. Family life itself is political and even if institutionally woman have little, no or restricted political roles (depending on precisely where they live) women are at the centre of politics because so much of the politics is built around marriage.

You could potentially have a political novel set in the days before women's suffrage in which women were only background characters, one of the interesting features of GRRM's choice to have a medieval inspired fantasy with a decentralised, family based political system is that women are inescapably central.

We're constantly reminded that who people are married to, who is the mother or the father is important. How many threads depend on lines of decent!

Once we have admitted the centrality of marriage then we have to wonder about the nature and qualities of marriage, how that intersects with issues of love, romance and society. The universal tension in ASOIAF is between the individual and society - "love is the bane of honour, the death of duty". The competing claims of the personal needs and the social requirements threaten the stability of the whole society - Lyanna and Rhaegar is a key drive wheel of the plot. Which means in turn in my long winded way that women's interests, women's stories and women's perspectives are also central to the novel and certainly equal to those of the men.

We're a long way (again) from LOTR. It would be nice if GRRM got credit for that.

[Mladen]

Ladies, I know it`s inappropriate for a male to talk about feminism, but please allow me to.

I live in part of the world where women are quite valued in a tradition way. Possibly the same way as they are valued in ASOIAF by the inhabitants of Westeros. In our history and literature there are so many examples of outstanding women who did amazing things. But, unfortunately, those role models are exceptional mothers, sisters, wifes. I believe that one day we`ll be able to change that, not only here in my country then in the rest of the world too...

But beyond that, I believe in choice. I always remember `Mona Lisa smile` movie when Julia Stiles said: It`s my choice. And ultimately it is. Ladies, choose what you want. If you want to be working mums, as my own, do that. Nothing bad happened to me, and I love my mom so much. Live your life as you think you should. For that is the challenge we all face, no matter if we are male or female.

As for feminism in ASOIAF, I wouldn`t dare to say it`s against women. I don`t believe that Martin is misogynist, for his female characters are so beautiful in every way. His world is harsh and cruel to both sexes. But, we see in Brienne wonderful idea of feminist battle against society, a pursue for a life she chose, and ideals that are not in any second forgotten. Arya and Cersei are trying to succeed in men`s world. Dornish women freely acknowledge their sexuality.

Further more, I believe GRRM has given us some very subtle proofs he doesn`t care about sexes. PTWP, and valonqar can be both sexes, Dany and Cersei are nothing worse rulers than their predecessors. His world is against women, as any medieval world is. But his women are at the beginning in very tight boxes, and through their journey they leave those boxes, and try to survive in their own world.

I understand if my opinions are for you a little bit outdated. I grew up in very traditional, sometimes even narrow-minded society, and there are days I believe I am just a product of such world. But, hay, I will fight against that notion to the last breath of my body. Just as ASOIAF female characters are doing. Just as you should, my ladies. For I have never met a group of such wonderful, intelligent, and yet quite sensitive ladies...

[brashcandy]

The competing claims of the personal needs and the social requirements threaten the stability of the whole society - Lyanna and Rhaegar is a key drive wheel of the plot. Which means in turn in my long winded way that women's interests, women's stories and women's perspectives are also central to the novel and certainly equal to those of the men.

We're a long way (again) from LOTR. It would be nice if GRRM got credit for that.

Well said Lummel; I like that you mentioned Lyanna Stark since she embodies the traditionally feminine and masculine roles that we see playing out with the characters of Sansa and Arya. She could fight and ride well and of course there's the heroics at the Harrenhal tourney. We also learn that she was once moved to tears by Rhaegar's singing, and understood quite clearly that Robert Baratheon would not have made a suitable husband. What looks to be Lyanna's most enduring and memorable role, however, is that of a mother, and though in the little recollections we have she's obviously sick and dying, her willpower and resolution are evident in getting her brother to commit to a promise. I don't think anyone would ever describe Lyanna as weak or passive, and yet she ends her life on the proverbial "birthing bed", the place that Cersei despises for its denial of power to women. In the final analysis, it's important to recognize how each woman utilizes their respective strengths in whatever struggles they may face, and to stop promoting the idea that feminine characters like Sansa are inherently inferior and inadequate.

[brashcandy]

Ladies, I know it`s inappropriate for a male to talk about feminism, but please allow me to.

Not at all Mladen, after all, patriarchy hurts men too, and your contributions are as constructive as always :)

[1234567]

Ladies, I know it`s inappropriate for a male to talk about feminism, but please allow me to.

Not at all. Men should be allowed to talk about feminism, because it relates to both genders and discussion is useless unless both sides are being allowed to express themselves. Indeed it would be wonderful if one day there were no sides as such.

Women and men in different countries will face issues in regards to feminism, new men metro sexualities etc differenty as different cultural norms raise different issues. Add in to that factors of class, race and religion and it is a vastly complex issue. For example, looking at the symbolism of Peacock feathers the other day in a thread, I think both myself and Blisscraft mentioned that Peacock feathers are symbols of death and really bad luck, and yet Winter's Knight said where she's from they are good luck. So what can be seen as empowering in one country could be seen as disabling in another etc. So the more we all discuss and more importantly, understand, the better it is. When talking about feminism there is a huge concentration of the way women are restricted in society, but there rarely is a mixed debate about how men are also restricted.

I live in part of the world where women are quite valued in a tradition way. Possibly the same way as they are valued in ASOIAF by the inhabitants of Westeros. In our history and literature there are so many examples of outstanding women who did amazing things. But, unfortunately, those role models are exceptional mothers, sisters, wifes. I believe that one day we`ll be able to change that, not only here in my country then in the rest of the world too...

Women should be celebrated for these roles as well as the more common ideas of success, just as men who are great fathers and pillars of communities should be celebrated as much as knights...or in this day and age sport stars etc. Also changes do come through time and despite changes, in the UK, it is still women who do the bulk of cleaning the house, child care etc. This is changing and also has various factors like class differences that mean that the UK I live in will be a very different UK from someone in a wealthier or poorer, more agricultural or more industrialised area etc. With most people I know it is very balanced, but it is certainly not like that everywhere.

But beyond that, I believe in choice. I always remember `Mona Lisa smile` movie when Julia Stiles said: It`s my choice. And ultimately it is. Ladies, choose what you want. If you want to be working mums, as my own, do that. Nothing bad happened to me, and I love my mom so much. Live your life as you think you should. For that is the challenge we all face, no matter if we are male or female.

That was a great point in that film and it also made the point about choice well. You are completely right both women and men should be able to choose.

As for feminism in ASOIAF, I wouldn`t dare to say it`s against women. I don`t believe that Martin is misogynist, for his female characters are so beautiful in every way. His world is harsh and cruel to both sexes.

This was a point that is not nearly raised enough. Men are just as trapped in their roles as women. There is a lot of talk about agency and Sansa's apart lack of it,and why didn't she do this that and the other, but then if we look at the male characters, do they try and escape from their dire situations.

Ser Arys Oakheart is one I'd like to mention as he is forced to beat Sansa. Now he is a grown man. He could refuse, and indeed tries to, but then capitulates because at the end of te day he is as much a prisoner in KL as Sansa is. He hates what he does to her, but never tries to help her or to go against Joff, until he is finally seduced by Arienne. Similarly the court laughing at Sansa's abuse, was more than certainly feigned, yet none of them tried to offer a kinf word. The brief few words of kindness from Lady Tanda after Joff's death are all we ever see of how people at court truly feel. They are all afraid and yet Sansa is meant to have tried to do more than she did. She already had 2 escape plans, spoke up for someone when no one else would and when no one from the court ever spoke up for her: so if she is passive and weak, what does that make the rest of the court?

Also we see the Hound refuse to go out to battle and know that his life is ruined because of it. Men cannot act freely any more than women can at times. We see in Arya's chapters that none of the rounded up villagers try and escape or hear of any of the Northern prisoners trying to escape Harrenhal despite having a free reign of the place. Yet no one brings their inability to escape up in terms of Sansa. True they are side characters, but still it is of note.

I understand if my opinions are for you a little bit outdated. I grew up in very traditional, sometimes even narrow-minded society, and there are days I believe I am just a product of such world. But, hay, I will fight against that notion to the last breath of my body. Just as ASOIAF female characters are doing. Just as you should, my ladies. For I have never met a group of such wonderful, intelligent, and yet quite sensitive ladies...

I must have missed them, because I haven't seen any out dated opinions from you so far. ^_^

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

Ladies, I know it`s inappropriate for a male to talk about feminism, but please allow me to.

Not at all! As Brash said, patriarchy hurts men too. The more honest and open talk about sexism and gender issues, the better we (collectively) will be able to resolve them, or at least try to.

This was a point that is not nearly raised enough. Men are just as trapped in their roles as women. There is a lot of talk about agency and Sansa's apart lack of it,and why didn't she do this that and the other, but then if we look at the male characters, do they try and escape from their dire situations.

Ser Arys Oakheart is one I'd like to mention as he is forced to beat Sansa. Now he is a grown man. He could refuse, and indeed tries to, but then capitulates because at the end of te day he is as much a prisoner in KL as Sansa is. He hates what he does to her, but never tries to help her or to go against Joff, until he is finally seduced by Arienne. Similarly the court laughing at Sansa's abuse, was more than certainly feigned, yet none of them tried to offer a kinf word. The brief few words of kindness from Lady Tanda after Joff's death are all we ever see of how people at court truly feel. They are all afraid and yet Sansa is meant to have tried to do more than she did. She already had 2 escape plans, spoke up for someone when no one else would and when no one from the court ever spoke up for her: so if she is passive and weak, what does that make the rest of the court?

Also we see the Hound refuse to go out to battle and know that his life is ruined because of it. Men cannot act freely any more than women can at times. We see in Arya's chapters that none of the rounded up villagers try and escape or hear of any of the Northern prisoners trying to escape Harrenhal despite having a free reign of the place. Yet no one brings their inability to escape up in terms of Sansa. True they are side characters, but still it is of note.

Yes, indeed, the men in ASOIAF are just as trapped and powerless, for the most part, as the women are. For example: King Robert. He's the most powerful man in Westeros, yet he tells Ned how much he hates "kinging" and that he was a better warrior. Yet there he is, stuck kinging and stuck being married to a woman he hates and stuck with a psychopathic heir who cuts open live cats and stuck with his wife's greedy, backstabbing family. If Robert had his druthers, no doubt he'd be living in Storm's End with Lyanna and spending most of his time hunting or swinging that warhammer around. But he can't get out of being king, and until Cersei's incestuous adultery was discovered, he couldn't get out of being married to her or having Joffrey as his heir.

And then there's Ned Stark. Paramount lord of the North, beloved by his family and his subjects - and yet he wound up losing his head. His power and his status as a male nobleman couldn't save his neck once Joffrey and LF had made up their minds.

Sure, men had more agency than women, and those of noble birth more agency than smallfolk. King Robert had all the agency and "rights" of his society to beat Cersei and cheat on her. But he was stuck being married to her (until her adultery was revealed) because there seem to be very few grounds for divorce or annulment in Westeros. And no matter how much he hates the kinging business, he's stuck. I know, boo-hoo, cry poor King Bob a river, but I'm using him as an example to point out the lack of agency even the most powerful men can have. He can't just up and quit his miserable job like someone in a modern democracy could. People get down on Sansa for not "trying harder" to escape her circumstances, but all Robert could do about a job he hated was grizzle about it to Ned. He never said "Here. I quit. Why don't you be king, Ned, and I'll go back to Storm's End and spend the rest of my life hunting." All he could do was be a lousy King and fob off the job of ruling to Jon Arryn and later Ned.

Prince Doran is another example of a victim of circumstances in a different way - his health. He's in constant pain and confined to a wheelchair. The medicinal knowledge available in Westeros doesn't seem to help him much. So, prince or no prince, he's stuck in a pain-wracked body.

Sansa's lack of agency is the most glaringly obvious example, but she is far from being the only victim of circumstances. I think the whole idea of what is agency, who has it, who appears to have it but really doesn't, is one of the themes of the whole series.

[Theda Baratheon]

Not at all! As Brash said, patriarchy hurts men too. The more honest and open talk about sexism and gender issues, the better we (collectively) will be able to resolve them, or at least try to.

Definitely.

[Mladen]

Yes, indeed, the men in ASOIAF are just as trapped and powerless, for the most part, as the women are.

True. Rules applies equally to both men and women. It`s all about having power and that`s why everyone are fighting to gain it. And the worst thing is that they are all fighting for the right to choose. To choose a kingdom, to choose a king, to choose a spouse. It seems to me that crown, money, swords, dragons or information are no match of being powerful as the right of choice. Because, and this applies also to the real life, only those who make choices are free. And from the kings to the peasants are bounded by shackles of either duty or honor.

But choices also bring the consequences. Poor Sansa, if she had only known when she ratted her father. Rhaegar`s choice led to RR, Ned` s and Joffrey`s choices led to War of the Five kings. Northmen chose and look where that had led them. So, let me quote Spiderman: with great power comes great responsibility. As the matter effect, choose carefully is the best advice someone can give to all ASOIAF characters.

Sansa`s ideals of love will soon be tested again, when she confronts her emotions with her duty, like many before her had done so. One day she will love freely, but will she be able to pursue luck with her choice, that`s about to be seen

P.S. And ladies, thanks for all your support.

[Kittykatknits]

I read a snippet about Arya and was quite impressed how wrong she was. Arya makes plans? Envisions herself as Nymeria to fight for freedom? Tricks Jaqen into staging a rebellion in Harrenhall? Yeah yeah and Tywin defecates gold too...

Rather like David Selig I find a better quality of ideas on the boards than in the essays, ok you have to search and maybe follow a thread for a few pages to see an idea developed but people are going to challenge you if you misremember or misinterpret.

I read the entire thing and agree with both you and David Selig very much here. It struck me as a superficial reading of the work really. She got key plot elements right but missed the mark on the characters quite a bit. And I'm with David Selig, very surprised that Catelyn didn't even garner a mention. Martin made a point of including a mother POV in the series and her story is quite fascinating from a feminist perspective, she's a woman who is very much a product of her time yet we get hints of her frustration with those boundaries almost from the beginning. As the series progresses, she grows increasingly willing to reject her duty in favor of the personal, perhaps the strongest example is the decision to release Jaime.

Ladies, I know it`s inappropriate for a male to talk about feminism, but please allow me to.

Nope, not inappropriate at all. :) Some of the strongest feminists I know in real life happen to be men actually. There are quite a few on this board too (and some of them happen to be regular contributors to this thread as well...). Feminism is ultimately about breaking down established gender roles, a recognition that those qualities traditionally associated with masculine or feminine have value. I think it is very much as you say, there isn't a right way to be a woman no more than there is a right way to be a man. I think that is really getting to the argument that many of us having been making here.

And back to that essay, I read the entire damned thing and found myself really frustrated by the repeated framing on active/passive roles. It's superficial and completely lacks context. More importantly, that particular method of framing completely misses the point. It reinforces the right way/wrong way to be a woman (or a man) and can reinforce cultural values rather than challenge them. To go back to Arya again, as Lummel and Rapsie point out, I think the article got quite a bit with her wrong. Arya is a girl and she wants to be a girl. It just so happens that Arya wants to be a girl on her own terms, not what her culture tells her. She wants to learn how to use Needle, not get prepared to birth sons who might become knights or high septons. Here, I think Arya is getting to exactly what we were talking about earlier in some statements on 3rd wave feminism. There is no right way to be a woman which applies just as much to Arya in Westeros as it does to women here in our world.

[Mladen]

And back to that essay, I read the entire damned thing and found myself really frustrated by the repeated framing on active/passive roles. It's superficial and completely lacks context. More importantly, that particular method of framing completely misses the point. It reinforces the right way/wrong way to be a woman (or a man) and can reinforce cultural values rather than challenge them. To go back to Arya again, as Lummel and Rapsie point out, I think the article got quite a bit with her wrong. Arya is a girl and she wants to be a girl. It just so happens that Arya wants to be a girl on her own terms, not what her culture tells her. She wants to learn how to use Needle, not get prepared to birth sons who might become knights or high septons. Here, I think Arya is getting to exactly what we were talking about earlier in some statements on 3rd wave feminism. There is no right way to be a woman which applies just as much to Arya in Westeros as it does to women here in our world.

I have never understood the concept of being stuck in a body of wrong sex. I mean, Arya, just like Brienne, totally knows who she is, and absolutely accepts that. She understands the society norms, but she wants to have it her way. Her survival among men proves that she is who she is. Under the mask of Arry, she is a girl, she isn`t confused about who she is, only discomforted by the fact she has to hide it. Unlike Cersei who entire life spent wanting to have been born as a man, Arya is satisfied with her gender. Her femininity has its moments and for me those are really wonderful. Remember the dress she was given by lady Smallwood. Those moments are precious and I find it refreshing, for her box of tomboy at the beginning is left, and she`s growing both as a character and as a woman

[Lady Lea]

I am currently reading bell hooks' Feminism is for Everybody for the first time (it's so good you guys) and just got to the chapter on love. Since love and marriage (and feminism) are the themes of this edition of the PtP I thought maybe it would be relevant to the discussion.

If women and men want to know love, we have to yearn for feminism. For without feminist thinking and practice we lack the foundation to create loving bonds. Early on, profound dissappointment with heterosexual relationships led many individual females to women's liberation. Many of these women felt betrayed by the promise of love and living happily ever after when they entered marriages with men who swiftly transformed themselves from charming princes into patriarchal lords of the manor. [...] Love can never take root in a relationship based on domination and coercion.

We see many women in Westeros, taught to expect the ultimate happiness in marriage, to be disillusioned with the bitter reality of domination and coercion by their spouses. Cersei and Lysa are good examples, and I don't think it's a coincidence that GRRM makes a point of having both women express their frustration and anger with their lot. Perhaps one could also cite Selyse Baratheon, trapped in a marriage with a man she doesn't seem to like much and who certainly doesn't care for her.

And Sansa is one character who certainly understands this. We see how enraptured she was by the promise of love and happily ever after (so much that she believes herself to be half in love with Joffrey without even meeting him) and she sees how quickly he turned into a monster and only got worse when he realised he had every power over her. She then enters into a marriage with Tyrion and notes, bitterly, that what she was taught by that sexist society, that "all men are beautiful", is nothing but a lie, and that Tyrion could, if he wanted to, do anything to her.

bell hooks notes that this led a group of feminists to give up on love and marriage, because they thought that they could never exist without oppression. We see that Sansa has proclaimed that she never wants to get married again, since she's tired of being used and abused.

However, the author says that is not the answer, and advocates relationships based on mutual growth, acknowledgment, care, responsibility, commitment, where everyone's needs are respected - an equal relationship, saying that "love has the power to transform us, giving us the strength to oppose domination". If Sansa ever finds real love, one based on the qualities listed above (or as she herself puts it, "someone who will love me for myself"), I truly believe she will embrace it and it will serve to make her even stronger.

And people say there is nothing feminist about her story!

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

I read the entire thing and agree with both you and David Selig very much here. It struck me as a superficial reading of the work really. She got key plot elements right but missed the mark on the characters quite a bit. And I'm with David Selig, very surprised that Catelyn didn't even garner a mention. Martin made a point of including a mother POV in the series and her story is quite fascinating from a feminist perspective, she's a woman who is very much a product of her time yet we get hints of her frustration with those boundaries almost from the beginning. As the series progresses, she grows increasingly willing to reject her duty in favor of the personal, perhaps the strongest example is the decision to release Jaime.

Nope, not inappropriate at all. :) Some of the strongest feminists I know in real life happen to be men actually. There are quite a few on this board too (and some of them happen to be regular contributors to this thread as well...). Feminism is ultimately about breaking down established gender roles, a recognition that those qualities traditionally associated with masculine or feminine have value. I think it is very much as you say, there isn't a right way to be a woman no more than there is a right way to be a man. I think that is really getting to the argument that many of us having been making here.

And back to that essay, I read the entire damned thing and found myself really frustrated by the repeated framing on active/passive roles. It's superficial and completely lacks context. More importantly, that particular method of framing completely misses the point. It reinforces the right way/wrong way to be a woman (or a man) and can reinforce cultural values rather than challenge them. To go back to Arya again, as Lummel and Rapsie point out, I think the article got quite a bit with her wrong. Arya is a girl and she wants to be a girl. It just so happens that Arya wants to be a girl on her own terms, not what her culture tells her. She wants to learn how to use Needle, not get prepared to birth sons who might become knights or high septons. Here, I think Arya is getting to exactly what we were talking about earlier in some statements on 3rd wave feminism. There is no right way to be a woman which applies just as much to Arya in Westeros as it does to women here in our world.

I read some of it too and that woman should not be paid to write. At least if this is an example of her work. Either she doesn't actually read the books (wikied it?) or she's such a careless reader that she fails to grasp even simple things. Going to Arya, she said Arya rejects beauty. This is a falsehood. Arya is very aware of beauty. She just feels she is not beautiful. Low self-esteem does not mean you reject a notion.

Interesting thought though, who places a greater emphasis on beauty, Arya or Sansa?

I think it depends. Arya is more self-aware of her own (lack of) beauty. *Sansa tends to pay attention to others' beauty.

I am currently reading bell hooks' Feminism is for Everybody for the first time (it's so good you guys) and just got to the chapter on love. Since love and marriage (and feminism) are the themes of this edition of the PtP I thought maybe it would be relevant to the discussion.

We see many women in Westeros, taught to expect the ultimate happiness in marriage, to be disillusioned with the bitter reality of domination and coercion by their spouses. Cersei and Lysa are good examples, and I don't think it's a coincidence that GRRM makes a point of having both women express their frustration and anger with their lot. Perhaps one could also cite Selyse Baratheon, trapped in a marriage with a man she doesn't seem to like much and who certainly doesn't care for her.

And Sansa is one character who certainly understands this. We see how enraptured she was by the promise of love and happily ever after (so much that she believes herself to be half in love with Joffrey without even meeting him) and she sees how quickly he turned into a monster and only got worse when he realised he had every power over her. She then enters into a marriage with Tyrion and notes, bitterly, that what she was taught by that sexist society, that "all men are beautiful", is nothing but a lie, and that Tyrion could, if he wanted to, do anything to her.

bell hooks notes that this led a group of feminists to give up on love and marriage, because they thought that they could never exist without oppression. We see that Sansa has proclaimed that she never wants to get married again, since she's tired of being used and abused.

However, the author says that is not the answer, and advocates relationships based on mutual growth, acknowledgment, care, responsibility, commitment, where everyone's needs are respected - an equal relationship, saying that "love has the power to transform us, giving us the strength to oppose domination". If Sansa ever finds real love, one based on the qualities listed above (or as she herself puts it, "someone who will love me for myself"), I truly believe she will embrace it and it will serve to make her even stronger.

And people say there is nothing feminist about her story!

I think Septa Mordane was right. Sorta. I think she mainly was trying to prepare Sansa for the fact she might be married to someone who was not handsome. But that doesn't mean he wouldn't be beautiful on the inside. And considering Ned, it is a reasonable assumption that she would be married to a decent man (this seemed to be Ned's main issue over politic alliances). Septa Mordane could have never expected what transpired with Joffery or Tyrion. So, I think she was right with the general expectation of the kind of marriage Ned would have arranged for her.

Ironically, Tyrion proves this. Tysha did love him. He might have been physically hideous, but she saw the decent young man he was becoming until Tywin stepped in destroyed that.

*Of course, this is not saying she is shallow since she has proven herself to be more than capable of looking beyond the outside. I only include this because she often gets accused of being shallow.

[Lady Lea]

I think Septa Mordane was right. Sorta. I think she mainly was trying to prepare Sansa for the fact she might be married to someone who was not handsome. But that doesn't mean he wouldn't be beautiful on the inside. And considering Ned, it is a reasonable assumption that she would be married to a decent man (this seemed to be Ned's main issue over politic alliances). Septa Mordane could have never expected what transpired with Joffery or Tyrion. So, I think she was right with the general expectation of the kind of marriage Ned would have arranged for her.

I see what you mean, I like to think he would have done that, but we saw who he betrothed Sansa to: Joffrey. That was a real betrothal, supposed to be "the" betrothal, and Ned didn't even know much about Joffrey. (BTW, what a nice friend Robert was, knowing what his son was like and telling his best friend to give his daughter to that psycho). I know he said he would try to break it up later, but betrothals are serious business. We saw how that turned out.

I see your point about the Septa's intentions but I don't think it was her place to expect this or that for Sansa. Sometimes you can know a person for years and when you marry them they turn out to be monsters (happened to an alarming number of people I know), so even if Ned married her to someone he knew and trusted, who can say what he would have been like once married? The Septa was fully aware of the power husbands had over wives, too. The lesson about appearances sounds nice but I think that it's more about teaching Sansa that she just had to be more accepting and accommodating in order to be happy.

[brashcandy]

I am currently reading bell hooks' Feminism is for Everybody for the first time (it's so good you guys) and just got to the chapter on love. Since love and marriage (and feminism) are the themes of this edition of the PtP I thought maybe it would be relevant to the discussion.

This is so uncanny :) I just recommended that book to someone. For those interested, here's the pdf version: http://excoradfeminisms.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/bell_hooks-feminism_is_for_everybody.pdf

[Raksha the Demon]

I have never understood the concept of being stuck in a body of wrong sex. I mean, Arya, just like Brienne, totally knows who she is, and absolutely accepts that. She understands the society norms, but she wants to have it her way. Her survival among men proves that she is who she is. Under the mask of Arry, she is a girl, she isn`t confused about who she is, only discomforted by the fact she has to hide it. Unlike Cersei who entire life spent wanting to have been born as a man, Arya is satisfied with her gender. Her femininity has its moments and for me those are really wonderful. Remember the dress she was given by lady Smallwood. Those moments are precious and I find it refreshing, for her box of tomboy at the beginning is left, and she`s growing both as a character and as a woman

I would add that Arya is satisfied with her gender at the moment. Arya is still a child. No man has tried to rape her, marry her to a man who will expect her to give him heirs and run his keep/castle; the worst thing she has had to endure because of her gender has been a disgusting and sinister verbal threat that was never realized. If Ned and Catelyn had lived, Arya might have cursed her gender when she had to marry the Frey to whom she was promised, or some other lord or lordling. It's possible that her parents might have allowed Arya the freedom not to marry, or to marry for love, especially if Sansa was already given in a Stark-friendly alliance; but not extremely likely.

If Arya leaves the Faceless Men (whose training might eventually smother her sexuality as she matures), then she might, in future years, go in the direction of either Cersei or Brienne - to accept a politically advantageous marriage that sours and become more and more bitter and vengeful, or forge a new path and become a female warrior in a male-dominated martial culture. (I would really like to see Arya go to Dorne, she might be properly appreciated there and could have a good life)

[Lyanna Stark]

I don't think it's available online, you have to buy the collection "Beyond the Wall" to read it.

It's a mediocre at best essay anyway, I've seen way better posts on this topic here numerous times and I didn't have to pay to read them. No real insight, it mostly says obvious things and also has some really inaccurate claims not just about Sansa. And it's baffling that an essay on this topic doesn't analyse Catelyn and her plotline at all.

*faints*

I think excluding Cat makes me want to write a letter of complaint. There is just no excuse for that, ever. Cat is an amazong character study in how even a woman who has largely accepted her role in a patriarchal society starts to really chafe and more and more go against it.

Also Lummel's comments about how she got Arya wrong. Ah well, no time to read that today unfortunately.

Regarding Arya again, I find the judgemental thoughts on Sansa in the same vein as the comments levelled against Arya that she must be a lesbian, or she actually wants to be a man (while in the novels we see no indication that Arya wants to be a boy, and she's rather too young to think about sexual attraction, but drawing a line from being un-feminine or non traditional female pursuits to being a lesbian is judgemental both to women in general and to lesbians***). Apparently both the Stark sisters fail at being female? Simply mindboggling.

*** This seems for some reason to be a common slur against feminists and working career women of the past. being so "unfeminine" they have to be lesbians. Which makes you wonder, does being a lesbian make you unfeminine or is being unfeminine what turns you lesbian? /snark off

[Mladen]

However, the author says that is not the answer, and advocates relationships based on mutual growth, acknowledgment, care, responsibility, commitment, where everyone's needs are respected - an equal relationship, saying that "love has the power to transform us, giving us the strength to oppose domination". If Sansa ever finds real love, one based on the qualities listed above (or as she herself puts it, "someone who will love me for myself"), I truly believe she will embrace it and it will serve to make her even stronger.

And there we find a fine solution for San/San`s problems to be together. Two people who can`t be more different are so powerfully drawn to each other, it`s amazing how GRRM is building their relationship basically out of nothing. But, the true question is how capable both of them are to change and to influence the other one?

In Sansa, it`s like layering the cake, one layer at the time. It seems to me that with each scene her fear of him is slowly disappearing. But, it`s one scene at the time, so by the time she arrives in Vale, she feels such nostalgic for him, that it`s so romantically amusing. As for him, his rough exterior hides what is essential in their romance. Deep insecurity, pain and mistrust to all living people. And that`s where the two of them found each other. No matter how different they are externally, deep down they are two parts of the same story. Wounded animal(hound or wolf) searching for kindness and love.

Deep down in my gut, as much as they belong to each other, I see martin separating them somehow. I am not sure how, but I believe that Sansa`s road is pretty clear - to become a Queen Cersei has never been. And yes, it is sad(even for a guy)

P.S. Ladies, will we have another projects to write? Any ideas, I`d love to do it...