From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XVII

[Lady Lea]

Aw, Kitty, I miss you!

Also, I can't believe I missed a conversation that would allow me to air my long list of grievances against the show. :( On a related not to it, I did hear that D&D did some focus groups or something similar to find out women's opinions on the relationship between Sandor and Sansa and the show was partly influenced by the feedback they received. I don't have anything to back this up other than it came from someone who knows a lot about the show. So, take that for what you will...

They did? I wonder what the focus group said that made them give all the Hound's lines to LF lol

[Kittykatknits]

Aw, Kitty, I miss you!

I miss you too. :) I didn't mean to be absent this week, life just took unexpected turns.

They did? I wonder what the focus group said that made them give all the Hound's lines to LF lol

I don't remember specifics but it was something about appreciating the relationship but not being excited about the romantic aspects of it. I learned about it from someone who read every article and saw every "making off" and interview with anyone associated with the show. I can't point to a source for it though so can't verify any of this.

[Ashkhen]

GOODNESS, a lot has happened in the last few days.My thoughts:

Ragnorak

The Wall seems to block Jon's ability to feel Ghost but not Bloodraven's ability to warg past the Wall though he is a greenseer over just a skinchanger. Not sure what this means for Jon.

The wall is powerful and yes, Bloodraven is a skinchanger. But I don't think the wall's powers distinguish between the two types, and we also know that Jon has the potential to be a very powerful warg. Couldn't Jon's inability to feel Ghost be due to his inexperience / not knowing that he's a warg?

Bran (or other siblings) as protector vs. Sansa as mother figure is something I am very interested in. I need to go back and re-read the posts you all have written about Sansa's relationships with the baby bros. + Valkyrja's Mother post.

How would Sansa ever come to understand that Lady's death bought Bran's life? She doesn't know Bran is alive, she doesn't yet know anything about the reality of magic, nor anything about resurrection magic.

The whole Tyrion experience vs. Sandor fantasy/dream = y'all have done a great job analyzing. Nothing to add to that yet...

[brashcandy]

Lyanna Stark wrote this for the ongoing discussion in the Tyrion reread thread, and I'm reposting for its relevance to our recent focus on love and marriage:

In ASOS there is a theme with marriages and rejection, of various degrees and in various forms.

The first and most obvious one is perhaps Robb rejecting his Frey bride and choosing Jeyne Westerling, where he both rejects the marriage on the face of it and its "functions". As we know, this has dire consequences for Robb, politically, since he was not ok with going through the motions of marrying his Frey and having someone "on the side" as it were. Robb is honourable and did the honourable thing towards Jeyne Westerling, while forsaking the political, but unhappy, alliance with the Freys.

In comparison, the next two marriages between Tyrion and Sansa; Joffrey and Margaery are completely political constructs. The involved parties care nothing for each other. as far as we know (although I am sure Marg pretended to dote on Joffrey). They are thrown together due to power struggles and political maneuvering. However, what happens under the "surface" is that the participants reject the marriage. Tyrion rejects the notion that he needs to consummate the marriage and rape his unwilling wife, despite Tywin pointing out that it's politically necessary. Sansa rejects the notion that "all men are beautiful" and that she should dutifully try and love the husband thrust upon her. Margaery and the Tyrells reject Joffrey, despite accepting him at a surface level. And their rejection of the political necessity to marry a monster is to have him murdered.

It also mirrors, I think, that marriages made for cynical political gain will not be functional. The participants will reject them due to their nature, and in the end, they will cause more trouble than they are worth. Often the political gain may even be undermined to a degree (as in the case of Tyrion/Sansa, I think, since it seems no Lannister heirs to Winterfell will come of that marriage), change the power structures (the Tyrells had a much larger chance of influence with Tommen as Marg's queen instead of Joffrey) or set them up to be hated for eternity (the Freys for the Red Wedding).

In these instances, marriage fails to be the unifying force and political positive it's meant to be. Instead it causes upheaval, death and divisiveness. I think the point of reconcilation is important. There seems to be a lack of reconcilation and a lack of common purpose. The weddings are just another stepping stone in the game of thrones and just another piece that can be played in the various families' and individuals' power grabs.

[1234567]

Also, I can't believe I missed a conversation that would allow me to air my long list of grievances against the show. :( On a related not to it, I did hear that D&D did some focus groups or something similar to find out women's opinions on the relationship between Sandor and Sansa and the show was partly influenced by the feedback they received. I don't have anything to back this up other than it came from someone who knows a lot about the show. So, take that for what you will...

I take from it that listening to focus groups is a bad idea. After all wasn't Starwars meant to be a flop because of the ore-release screening reactions?

Also I'm pretty sure Only Fools and Horses and Dad's Army weren't reviewed well and just put on air anyway, and they became classic sitcoms. Maybe we should start a thread in the show part of the forum?

[Mladen]

Interesting thoughts, Mladen. Sansa's connection to the Mother may also hold literal importance in terms of continuing the Stark line. Perhaps it's no accident that her most profound relationship is with a man who has very Northern looks and ideals.

Thanks, brash. And as for SanSan, I think it`s another Song of ice and fire. Sansa being from North, touched by ice(with Robb and Jon, she`s the only Stark born in winter, possibly in spring at any case). And Sandor is literally touched by fire...I know everyone thinks that ASOIAF is connected with Jon and Dany, but Martin could widen the term, and give us more than one *ice and fire* story.

P.S. I always feel pride when the ladies of this forum are agreeing with me... :blushing:

[Elba the Intoner]

I miss you too. :) I didn't mean to be absent this week, life just took unexpected turns.

I don't remember specifics but it was something about appreciating the relationship but not being excited about the romantic aspects of it. I learned about it from someone who read every article and saw every "making off" and interview with anyone associated with the show. I can't point to a source for it though so can't verify any of this.

I wonder if the focus group only included non-book readers, or if there was a mix. From what I have seen on other forums non book readers don't seem to put much emphasis on the romanticism but I could be biased myself so, :dunno: ?

[Le Cygne]

From what I have seen on other forums non book readers don't seem to put much emphasis on the romanticism but I could be biased myself so, :dunno: ?

It's really popular elsewhere among non-book readers. They are getting it all from the show, and start reading the books for more.

I take from it that listening to focus groups is a bad idea. After all wasn't Starwars meant to be a flop because of the ore-release screening reactions?

I found the reference online: http://winteriscomin...-members-report The focus group in question predates the show (2010). "The participants were divided into two groups of 9 females and 8 males..." Romance only came up in the women's group, and of those, two commented:

The women’s group talked about the Sansa-Sandor relationship a bit. We all found it interesting but none of us were into the whole San-San pairing thing, though we mentioned that we found it a bit odd how that was one of the biggest ships out there. We did all feel it was an important relationship that we hoped would be shown in all its complexities on screen...

I would say from the woman’s group that Sansa sparked a lot of discussion and debate. We noted she was a very interesting character who inspires both hate and intense sympathy at different points, but I wouldn’t say we said she was more popular than Arya. Most people in our group noted a strong liking for Ayra though she was not the top pick for anyone’s favorite (I considered it but said Dany). We did discuss how Sansa/The Hound is a favorite relationship of the fandom and how messed up that relationship is.

I added the two comments... No worries...

[brashcandy]

@Le Cygne - that's interesting; I never heard anything about this focus group until Kitty mentioned it. Anyways, a reminder for everyone that we're not allowed to discuss the tv show in this part of the forum. :)

Le Cygne - no need to remove your post btw.

[Mahaut]

I'm very interested in the thematic relevance of it all as well. Valkyrja has written on the symbolism of the Mother archetype in Sansa's arc

Just a quick thought about Sansa and motherhood. In Roman mythology, Romulus and Remus are found and suckled by a she-wolf. For this reason, the she-wolf was associated with fertility in Ancient Rome. Since she’s a Stark, Sansa is symbolically a she-wolf. And from what we’ve seen so far, Sansa has had a similar relationship with Sweetrobin as it was pointed out. Also several Asian tribes (such as the Mongols) believed they were born from a Blue Wolf and a Beautiful Doe.

In short, there are several traditions in the world that associate the wolf with fertility. So, I'd say there’s still hope for the Starks :)

[Mladen]

In short, there are several traditions in the world that associate the wolf with fertility. So, I'd say there’s still hope for the Starks :)

Let me quote Gandalf: There were never much hope. Only the fools` hope.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

I'm only curious if the focus group was with readers of the book. I'll be honest, if someone tried to describe the SanSan relationship (romantic and otherwise) before hand, I would have looked at them rather funny (just the age difference alone would give me concerns). Some things cannot be described so much as experienced. It does not relate solely to Sansa. But if you had described Sansa, Stannis, and Davos and told me they would be among my favorite characters, I wouldn't believe it. So, when judging things like that to see how the public would react, I think it is important to see how those who have experienced it judge it.

((Sorry if I stepped out of line, but I was still kinda talking about the books at least as much as the show.))

[Kittykatknits]

Thanks, brash. And as for SanSan, I think it`s another Song of ice and fire. Sansa being from North, touched by ice(with Robb and Jon, she`s the only Stark born in winter, possibly in spring at any case). And Sandor is literally touched by fire...I know everyone thinks that ASOIAF is connected with Jon and Dany, but Martin could widen the term, and give us more than one *ice and fire* story.

P.S. I always feel pride when the ladies of this forum are agreeing with me... :blushing:

Actually, I don't think the song of ice and fire is just about Jon and Dany or the dragons/Others. I'm pretty convinced that the idea of a song of ice and fire gets to some of the core themes within the series. A song is about bringing harmony and making sense of what would otherwise be random words and sounds and it does it in a manner that is (at least in theory, sometimes I wonder about music these days - I'm so old.) pleasing to our senses. Martin has been playing with the idea of duality and ideas in opposition to each other almost from the begining of the series. Knighthood is an easy example here as we have the nightmare of Gregor the knight and Brienne who is the perfect knight yet not a knight. To keep this current to recent discussion, seems like marriage is another great example too. The marriage made purely for political purposes, such as Cersei and Robert is just as unhealthy as Jorah and Lynesse. A successful relationship is based upon mutual respect, compromise, and a willingness to work together. In other words, a push towards balance rather than the extremes. Back to that song idea again, I do think Martin explores quite a bit within his world and the message is always that one extreme or another is not the right answer, it's a balance that provides harmony.

So, I do think that Sandor and Sansa are another song of ice and fire, as you point out she is from the north and he has literally been touched by fire twice now. But, we see they bring balance to each other as well. She reignited his knightly ideals and challenged his cynicism. In return, he was a strong force in her shedding her naive view of the world and helped build a strong respect within Sansa for honesty. I'd say that they are a song already, whether they ever do meet again or not (and I do think they will!).

I'm only curious if the focus group was with readers of the book. I'll be honest, if someone tried to describe the SanSan relationship (romantic and otherwise) before hand, I would have looked at them rather funny (just the age difference alone would give me concerns). Some things cannot be described so much as experienced. It does not relate solely to Sansa. But if you had described Sansa, Stannis, and Davos and told me they would be among my favorite characters, I wouldn't believe it. So, when judging things like that to see how the public would react, I think it is important to see how those who have experienced it judge it.

((Sorry if I stepped out of line, but I was still kinda talking about the books at least as much as the show.))

If you had described Stannis, Davos, or Jaime to me, I would refuse to even consider them for my list of favorite character. I'm always curious to know what I'll call typical fans of the books think of different characters and story lines. I sometimes forgot that not everyone picks apart every line or goes over character development in intricate detail.

[greensleeves]

Did Lady's death pay for Bran's life?

...

I'm thinking Bran was warged into Summer in a psuedo second life and Lady's death is the sacrifice that pays for his return to his own body and "resurrection." There seemed to be a connection that was keeping his body alive as Cat notes that Bran grew weaker when the window was closed to block out the wolf's howling. My first thoughts on this are about Jon's potential recovery from his stabbing. Borroq, the boar warg that calls him brother, has taken to living in Castle Black's lichyard (the same place at Winterfell Lady is buried) which always struck me as important. While interesting to speculate on, the Bran/Sansa connection from a sacrifice of Lady's life probably has far more subtle clues and implications beyond a single cliff hanging event.

Bran's reaction of feeling cold and speaking weakly is odd especially compared to Robb's anger and frustration. That he notes the connection to Sansa losing her wolf in what is clearly a Lannister forced letter stands out too. I had been wondering about the connection between Sansa's dreams with Lady and Bloodraven, but now I'm considering the possibility that they may be connected to Bran instead. That distinction between Bran and Bloodraven becomes less clear after he reaches the CotF cave.

This is a really interesting theory. Ned thinks about another of Sansa's dreams in one of his AGOT chapters. This takes place when they learn that Bran has recovered:

The night the bird had come from Winterfell, Eddard Stark had taken the girls to the castle godswood, an acre of elm and alder and black cottonwood overlooking the river. The heart tree there was a great oak, its ancient limbs overgrown with smokeberry vines;

they knelt before it to offer their thanksgiving, as if it had been a weirwood. Sansa drifted to sleep as the moon rose, Arya several hours later, curling up in the grass under Ned’s cloak. All through the dark hours he kept his vigil alone. When dawn broke over the city, the dark red blooms of dragon’s breath surrounded the girls where they lay. “I dreamed of Bran,” Sansa had whispered to him. “I saw him smiling.”

The 'Lady for Bran' theory makes me see that dream in a different light.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

I'm only curious if the focus group was with readers of the book. I'll be honest, if someone tried to describe the SanSan relationship (romantic and otherwise) before hand, I would have looked at them rather funny (just the age difference alone would give me concerns). Some things cannot be described so much as experienced. It does not relate solely to Sansa. But if you had described Sansa, Stannis, and Davos and told me they would be among my favorite characters, I wouldn't believe it. So, when judging things like that to see how the public would react, I think it is important to see how those who have experienced it judge it.

((Sorry if I stepped out of line, but I was still kinda talking about the books at least as much as the show.))

Sansa didn't start out as one of my favorite characters, believe it or not - I liked her less than Dany at first. But she had so much backlash against her for being too girly, too weak, etc. that made me perversely think "I'm going to like her just because!" (and because hatred against things traditionally considered feminine makes my teeth itch). Then I read Sansa more closely, and then I found the P2P threads, and the rest, as they say, is history.

Davos I like more and more on re-reads, too. I like his honesty and decency (smuggling food to a starving army even if it was against the law, rescuing Edric Storm) and if he brings back Rickon alive and well (feral or not) he is going to be in my top five.

Stannis I still don't care for very much as he's just such a grumpy Gus. And I really do not like the fanatic worship of R'hllor at all because religious fanaticism tends not to end well (though that is more Melisandre than anything). I don't dislike him as much as I'm just meh. I'll save my full blast of hatred for Joffrey, Ramsay Snow, Walder Frey, Sybelle Spicer (for pimping her own daughter, scheming turncloak bitch indeed!) and Littlefinger. :D Especially Littlefinger, whose fault this all is really.

This is a really interesting theory. Ned thinks about another of Sansa's dreams in one of his AGOT chapters. This takes place when they learn that Bran has recovered:

The night the bird had come from Winterfell, Eddard Stark had taken the girls to the castle godswood, an acre of elm and alder and black cottonwood overlooking the river. The heart tree there was a great oak, its ancient limbs overgrown with smokeberry vines;they knelt before it to offer their thanksgiving, as if it had been a weirwood. Sansa drifted to sleep as the moon rose, Arya several hours later, curling up in the grass under Ned’s cloak. All through the dark hours he kept his vigil alone. When dawn broke over the city, the dark red blooms of dragon’s breath surrounded the girls where they lay. “I dreamed of Bran,” Sansa had whispered to him. “I saw him smiling.”

The 'Lady for Bran' theory makes me see that dream in a different light.

This is very interesting to me, the connection between Bran and Sansa - who are really very much alike in personality in many ways. Both are idealistic, love stories about dashing knights and other heroes and heroines, both are attracted to the idea of southern life, both are considered sweet and kind, both are their mother's favorites. We never got to see Sansa interact much with any of her brothers (which is a pity) because her first POV chapter was after she left Winterfell. But in my headcanon Sansa and Bran are very close. :)

It occurs to me that both Bran and Sansa might well be the Starks who will have the strongest mystic/spiritual connection with the North, specifically the land itself. I refer to Milady of York's excellent post on connections between particular families and particular places and how a certain bloodline can be regarded as the guardian of that land. It would be interesting to see the two Starks who had the most southern ambitions at first - Sansa wanted to be queen, Bran wanted to be in the Kingsguard - become the ones most closely tied with the North and its survival. Bran is turning into a tree and Sansa, if the snow-castle scene is a foreshadowing, will be the one to rebuild Winterfell.

(And, incidentally, Meera Reed reminds me of a dryad - which in Greek mythology is a spirit of a tree, specifically a spirit of an oak tree, as "drys" means "oak." More and more layers of symbolism here!)

I did some looking-up of the symbolism of the oak tree, and it seems to be associated with male energy, with lightning, and with strength and long life. Oaks were considered sacred in many cultures. (There's a beautiful, hundreds of years old, historic oak about a 5 minutes drive from where I live.) In Celtic mythology, the oak, ash, and thorn were considered a magic trio with great power.

I am thinking about what this might mean for Bran, Sansa, and Lady's death. Perhaps Bran and Sansa will function as the male and female energies of the North and the land - Bran as Father (even if he can't father actual children) and Sansa as Mother (even if she never has any). I wonder if they will eventually be able to communicate psychically (by [email protected] :lol: for instance).

This elevates Lady's death to more than just a pointless sacrifice to Cersei's wrath, or All Sansa's Fault What A Stupid Girl or other Sansa-bashing theories. I wonder if Grey Wind's death will have a meaning as well?

ETA: Grey Wind was, as we all know, Robb's direwolf, and even though Robb was "King in the North," he never spent any time in the actual North after he was proclaimed King. He was born in the Riverlands (at Riverrun) and died there after having spent his entire tenure as king there. (I keep thinking, "King in the North, my ass!" Not that I don't like Robb, but I think it ironic.) Robb was essentially a false King because he was not really of the North. He wasn't born at Winterfell. Sansa was the first Stark child born at Winterfell and the last born in the winter. Bran was the first Stark child born in the summer (that is if Arya was born in spring; if she was born in summer, disregard that last statement). I keep thinking of the summer and winter balance that they symbolize and perhaps they signal that after the Others are defeated, that the Westerosi seasons will be more balanced. (I seem to recall a So Spake Martin comment that the seasons in Westeros are influenced by magic.)

Again in Celtic mythology, there is the Oak King of summer and the Holly King of winter, and in some stories they fight one another until one is killed - the Oak king is killed in the winter and the Holly King in summer, and each is reborn in their proper season. Sansa would be a queen, not a king, so the symbology doesn't perfectly line up, but it could be that she is connected with holly (her red hair like the holly berries, possibly her provisioning the North with supplies from the Vale her bearing winter fruit) and Bran with the oak. I hope they don't go so far as to keep killing one another and resurrecting, though. :D

[Mladen]

@kittens, beautifully written...

About bloodlines who are destined to protect the land, here in Serbia there is a beautiful historical fact. It`s interesting stories regarding how royal blood is connected with their kingdoms. At the near end of WWI, when Serbian army was utterly defeated and when there were no other option then to exile to Greece, a King of Serbia buried his crown in the land of an Orthodox church making a solemn oath that one day someone of his bloodline will bear that crown.

Varys is completely right about Aegon in DWD. Kings should learn how to rule through serving their people. Sansa is another example of that story. Her desire of becoming Queen is at first childish dream, but it evolves to desire to help and heal people of Westeros. Unlike any king who are blinded by their ambition, pride and vanity, Sansa understands the pain and suffering of the nation in war. I always loved the scene in COK when she says that people asked her for bread, and she was so desperate she couldn`t give it to them. So, I believe that Sansa`s idea of being Queen is actually mothering the nation, and that will be Mother side of her that will emerge in her quest of becoming Queen...

As for Bran and Sansa being very much alike, I agree with it. Their compassion has never seen among those cold, pride Starks. And has anyone noticed little bird/winged wolf metaphor. You probably have, and I pardon if I have stolen anyone`s idea. Well, it`s about flying. They were both in some sort of cages. Sansa literally, Bran metaphorically. But when they start flying, wonderful things could be expected.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

More on the trees in the King's Landing godswood: The alder in Celtic mythology is associated with Bran (Bran the Blessed in Celtic mythology) and also with resurrection. It was also used for making red dye. More on Bran and alders here: http://www.thornr.de...bran/gwern.html

So there were two different trees associated with resurrection in that godswood when Ned and the girls received the news that Bran was awake and would live; and one type specifically associated with another Bran in another mythic universe.

Now on to the elm: This tree is associated with the Goddess and feminine energy. It is also resistant to splitting. So to the male energy of the oak and the resurrection/Bran-specific meaning of the alder, we add the female energy of the elm. More and more I see this tree combination as pointing to the balance of energy symbolized by Bran and Sansa as keepers of the North; Bran as Father/protector and Sansa as Mother/nurturer/font of mercy. Its resistance to splitting I see as Sansa's refusal to be fully broken. She may be bowed and bent, but she remains unbroken in her true self.

More on Celtic trees in myth here: http://wicca.com/cel...ic/sactrees.htm

No cottonwoods in Celtic myth. There are several trees called "cottonwood" and I am assuming that it refers to poplars here. The poplar has an interesting Greek myth associated with it: Leuce (meaning "white" in Greek) was the most beautiful nymph in the world and Pluto, the god of the underworld, fell in love with her and abducted her to the underworld, where, unlike Persephone, she died. Pluto caused a white tree to grow in her memory. So the poplar is associated with death, resurrection and psychic ability. More on Leuce and poplars here: http://en.wikipedia....uce_(mythology)

The myth of the poplar sounds like Sansa - we have associated Sansa with Persephone here on the P2P threads before. The Leuce myth sounds a lot like Persephone except she died - which I don't think Sansa will, however, the "old" Sansa of GoT has, in a sense, died by the time of AFFC and seems to be in the process of being reborn as she comes down the mountain.

Smokeberry - I got nothin'. :) It doesn't seem to be a name of any existing plant. It might be something specific to the ASOIAF universe.

I now wonder if Lady's sacrifice was not only so Bran could live, but so that Sansa could develop her warg abilities beyond simply being able to have a psychic connection with her wolf. We've discussed her empath abilities in the P2P threads before. Perhaps Lady's death meant that Sansa had to develop a more wholistic empathic ability - the ability to connect with her people and perhaps her land itself - rather than restrict her ability to one creature. I'm going to follow up on this further, because I just had an idea for an essay about a topic related to this. But I am convinced that Lady's death, one way or another, had a deeper meaning.

OTOH Grey Wind's death may well be just pointless slaughter, not only because not every death necessarily has meaning, but because as I've said, Robb was never a true northern king. He and his wolf died together in the Riverlands and I see Grey Wind's death as 1) Robb's fatal error in distancing himself from his direwolf and by extension his northern roots (he did marry a southern girl), and 2) just what awful people the Freys are and how we'll cheer when that house goes kerflooey.

[Mahaut]

Great catch about the poplar KRBD!

The poplar is also known to represent duality because its leafs are of different colours. In Greek mythology, Heracles went to the underworld wearing a crown made of poplar branches. The side of the leaf facing Heracles's head was protected but the other turned dark because of the underworld's smokes. The Ancient Greeks also believed that only poplar wood could be used for the sacrifices to Zeus. And in Europe, the poplar and the cypress are often grown around graveyards as well.

And a fun fact I've just discovered: although the poplar grows in wet grounds, it's used to make matchsticks. So it's associated with both water and fire; rather relevant to our Sansa.

Do you think that the smokeberry could be the juniper berry? The juniper berries are used to spice bread, cakes, sauerkraut and alcohol (like gin). In ancient Rome and Greece, Juniper wood was also burnt in temples because of its aromatic smoke.

By the way, thank you for teaching me a new English word: I had never heard “kerflooey” before.

[Daphne23]

Kittens, great post - the only small issue is that Arya was indeed born in the summer (Ned tells her in GoT something along the lines of 'you were born in the long summer, you've never known anything else' when they are having the 'lone wolf dies' conversation) but I don't think this really matters. I love your exploration of the connections between Sansa and Bran, and it ties in very nicely to the associations between Sansa, Jon, the North and the living/resurrected dead which Tze has posted about on these threads.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

Kinda random, but I figured I might get my answer here instead of making a new Thread.

Has Sansa heard about the incest? Sansa was a prisoner and heard mostly only what they wanted her to hear. So, if she never reflected it or heard it in story, I think she might still think Joffery is Robert's trueborn son.