R+L = J v 38

[FittleLinger]

@Old-Growth- I will give you some textual examples, OK. Jon's dream where he fights the Others. His heritage - he is also of Aerys and Rhaella's line, but this is still "mystery". Jon has killed a wight with fire. And as Apple Martini has said, there are numerous options for the salt and smoke with Jon's current situation at the Wall - tears of Bowen and smoking wound, the ice vaults, etc. I will add my two cents here and propose that the "bleeding star" might be Dawn - after the battle it's safe to assume it was covered in blood, and it is forged by a fallen star.

I just want to say that the AA/PTWP might be something much more abstract and complex, I am leaving this option definitely open. But for the purposes of the discussion, we are assuming that namely either Jon or Dany is the one.

Now, Mel is being brought up often and I do think she is a relevant example. We know most of us here don't trust her given her track record. Well, Aemon and Rhaegar were working on the prophecy together, and even if Dany is the real answer, then they were wrong at least twice before that in their reading, if she is not that makes it at least three times.

You can say that yes, now they got the crucial piece of info realized - the gender thing. Yes, but initially Rhaegar thought the PTWP was himself, and then for some reason he decided that's not the case. Meaning that he most probably "realized" something that made him ineligible. What I am trying to say is that it seems they have continoulsy changed their verdict and made such "revelations" as the gender thing, so I don't know why we should assume that Aemon's on the ship was the final and most important piece, or even if it's correct.

About the obvious thing, what I meant is not that it must not be the first choice everytime, but when you ask people, "Why the hell are you ignoring the first and obvious and looking for an alternative", the answer is, "Because Martin has given us enough reason to doubt the first and obvious answer in literaly everything". It's about track record again.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

But he still would: he says that "the dragons prove it". And it is on that basis that he declares that "Daenerys is the one". Given that your doubt as expressed is not warranted. And Aemon knows what the prophecy says which is more than you can say for us.

The dragons only prove it if you assume and accept that what's being referred to are literal dragons. We have multiple instances of "dragons in prophecy = human Targaryens" in the D&E stories, and I have to think that we're shown those types of prophecies as a clue in how to interpret this one.

Aemon might know "what the prophecy says," but he doesn't know that Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son. Lacking that kind of crucial piece of information, if he thinks that Dany is the last of Aerys and Rhaella's line, of course he'd think it was her. And frankly, as soon as Aemon said that it was her, I knew in my gut that it wasn't. Which is in funny contrast to the essay writer, for whom Aemon is an infallible authority.

They are figuratively sacrificing their wives, either in that if unmarried they take a vow not to have a wife, or they agree to leave their wife if they have one. Whether that agreement actually dissolves the marriage is unclear. But this does not mean sacrifice in the way Nissa Nissa was sacrificed---that is, killed.

And they do not call themselves Lightbringer, at least not if what Melisandre states as the pertinent portion of the prophecy is correct.

"I am the sword in the darkness, the light that brings the dawn ..."

Don't they?

I have already explained in my Night's Watch/Lightbringer essays how easy it would be for a a "giving up" sacrifice to be warped into a "blood" sacrifice through millennia of mistranslation and hearsay.

[whitedog42]

What about the scene in ADWD when Mei asks the fire to show her the one and Jon is shown, frustrated, she asks where is Stannis, then the fire shows Stannis? As for the ignorance in Westeros, I think that since even Cersei didn't question Ned's integrity, and Petyr and Varys also banked on it to bring about his death, Jon (Rhaegon?) is thought to be Ned's. Catelyn's coldness cements the claim. Ned made a promise.

As for Lightbringer: it could be Needle, Drogon, dragonglass, the NW, or the newly forged sword that Brienne has, some have to be "tempered" by impaling a loved one. Dany could kill her hubby with one of the swords -yet, one of the dragons did kill Quentyn. She did kill Drogo in tandem to hatch the dragons. Lightbringer might still be unresolved or figurative (NW) and literal. Is it said there is only one? Aemon said the word prince in the prophecy was ambiguous in sex, what if in quantity?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

She wolf, hahaha : ) don't attempt to be insulting and then put a smiley at the end, eww. Wylla is completely made up by Ned Stark to cover up for Lyanna. Lyanna knows that Robert would kill any heir of Rhaegar's. I am confident that this will come out. This doesn't imply that no one else can also be named Wylla : ). And if you don't know what a port is, google it. Or look for the Tower of Joy(*the only correction of yours that I will allow) on a map of Westeros, and look were the closest access to the sea is. I'm convinced Jon was born in Wyl and moved. Lyanna died, in my opinion, due to complications from child birth. And if Jon isn't Rhaegar's son, then why were the 3 finest members of the kingsguard guarding Lyanna? The original post that I was replying to more than proves it. I was just adding my bit about Wyl, as no one else noticed. I have nothing more to add, nor will I let the name of Edric Storm's wet nurse dissuade me. : ) : ) If you think that its a coincidence, I disagree. I don't think anything is a coincidence in this series.

OK, first off, I do think that Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son and that he is AA, so you don't need to "convince" me there, OK? Much of what you're arguing about Jon's parents so defensively is pretty much a given around here. It's not that I take issue with. And I know what a port is, thanks. My point is, you're ignoring the fact that Edric Dayne (not Storm) verifies the existence of Wylla and connects her himself to Jon. There IS a woman named Wylla, somewhere, who has something to do with Jon; probably his old midwife and wet nurse, not his mother. Doesn't it also make sense that this would be a real woman, seeing as someone at some point might want to, you know, verify that she's Jon's mother (and being in on it, she'd say she was)? Kind of hard to do that if Ned's pulling her out of thin air, isn't it?

But you're not selling me on "Wyl = smoke and salt" or on the Wyl thing at all, sorry. If you're going to argue this, the impetus is on you to show that 1. Jon was actually born here and 2. a port can be symbolic of smoke and salt; the salt I get because of the ocean, but not the smoke. You're arguing from Point A to Point C and just hoping no one notices anything about Point B.

[FrozenFire3]

@Old-Growth- I will give you some textual examples, OK. Jon's dream where he fights the Others. His heritage - he is also of Aerys and Rhaella's line, but this is still "mystery". Jon has killed a wight with fire. And as Apple Martini has said, there are numerous options for the salt and smoke with Jon's current situation at the Wall - tears of Bowen and smoking wound, the ice vaults, etc. I will add my two cents here and propose that the "bleeding star" might be Dawn - after the battle it's safe to assume it was covered in blood, and it is forged by a fallen star.

Your two cents are gold :bowdown:

I just want to say that the AA/PTWP might be something much more abstract and complex, I am leaving this option definitely open.

One could even speculate Jon himself to be Lightbringer (NW vows to be taken lterally in this case), forged after long laboring in virtue of Lyanna's sacrifice (pierced and eventually killed by Rhaegar). The irony of this metaphorical scenario would be that Rhaegar was indeed right: he was TPTWP.

[FittleLinger]

Your two cents are gold :bowdown:

One could even speculate Jon himself to be Lightbringer (NW vows to be taken lterally in this case), forged after long laboring in virtue of Lyanna's sacrifice (pierced and eventually killed by Rhaegar). The irony of this metaphorical scenario would be that Rhaegar was indeed right: he was TPTWP.

Thank you.

Yep, that's one of the legit theories. I am still inclined to believe that this major prophecy still has some unknown element\circumstance that will come to play. This is one possible reading, agreed.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Thank you.

Yep, that's one of the legit theories. I am still inclined to believe that this major prophecy still has some unknown element\circumstance that will come to play. This is one possible reading, agreed.

I think it's crucial that we have yet to see either of these prophecies in their entirety. We're fed them in bits and pieces, and some of the pieces match and some don't. We have yet to see a fully realized version, and I think that's because if we did, it'd give something away. Just like I'm of the mind that Azor Ahai means something, in an etymological sense, that would "solve" the mystery if that meaning were revealed.

[FittleLinger]

I think it's crucial that we have yet to see either of these prophecies in their entirety. We're fed them in bits and pieces, and some of the pieces match and some don't. We have yet to see a fully realized version, and I think that's because if we did, it'd give something away. Just like I'm of the mind that Azor Ahai means something, in an etymological sense, that would "solve" the mystery if that meaning were revealed.

Exactly what I meant - I too think that the parts we are missing are crucial to the understanding.

I have also thought about etymology and have a feeling you might be right. The closest I have come up to a "translation" was that if we assume that the name comes from Asshai, it might be something related to fire. For example "Asshai" is Shadow, and "Ahai" is Fire for it sounds similar, or the other way round. Of course, this isn't helpful if true, and may very well be very wrong. I think Nissa Nissa also means something. Basically I think all those things are figurative, and in figurative stories names represent something, they are not there only to inform us of what name the real ancient hero's mom and dad gave them.

[LadyMary]

The dragons only prove it if you assume and accept that what's being referred to are literal dragons. We have multiple instances of "dragons in prophecy = human Targaryens" in the D&E stories, and I have to think that we're shown those types of prophecies as a clue in how to interpret this one.

Aemon might know "what the prophecy says," but he doesn't know that Jon is Rhaegar and Elia's son. Lacking that kind of crucial piece of information, if he thinks that Dany is the last of Aerys and Rhaella's line, of course he'd think it was her. And frankly, as soon as Aemon said that it was her, I knew in my gut that it wasn't. Which is in funny contrast to the essay writer, for whom Aemon is an infallible authority.

"I am the sword in the darkness, the light that brings the dawn ..."

Don't they?

I have already explained in my Night's Watch/Lightbringer essays how easy it would be for a a "giving up" sacrifice to be warped into a "blood" sacrifice through millennia of mistranslation and hearsay.

Apple Martini,

Just one correction to your otherwise spot-on post above: "...Aemon might know "what the prophecy says," but he doesn't know that Jon is Rhaegar and Elia's Lyanna's son..."

Fixed...for the sake of those who are lurking here maybe for the first time.

I think for all the parties who have the ability to "see" in the flames or interpret prophesies it's exactly what you said; everyone is working with missing information.

Jon's secret parentage means Melisandre incorrectly interprets what she sees in the flames, because she assumes that Stannis is the savior, even though R'hollor keeps showing her Jon Snow. She apparently assumes AA has King's blood, which she claims has power, without knowing that Jon is the grandson of a King and she doesn't know about Dany and her dragons.

Jon's secret parentage means that he's not on Maester Aemon's radar, because Aemon thinks AA = the PTWP and it must be a Prince or Princess with literal dragons. In that case, the dragons - or Drogon at least, is Lightbringer.

Moqorro and the Priests of R'hollor in Essos think AA is Dany too because of the dragons. They don't know anything about Jon Snow and if they saw some random guy in black in their flames they'd probably not know how to interpret it.

I think both Jon and Dany will have a role to play in destroying the Others and saving Westeros, because "dragon glass" and probably "dragon steel" and dragon flame, may be lethal to the Others. Which of these two is the AA/PTWP? Maybe neither - if it turns out that Jon is Lightbringer and Rhaegar was AA/the PTWP.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Apple Martini,

Just one correction to your otherwise spot-on post above: "...Aemon might know "what the prophecy says," but he doesn't know that Jon is Rhaegar and Elia's Lyanna's son..."

You're correct, I was typing too fast and too annoyed. :P

[Black Crow]

What about the scene in ADWD when Mei asks the fire to show her the one and Jon is shown, frustrated, she asks where is Stannis, then the fire shows Stannis?

You're misremembering. At the start of Mel's POV she is spending a frustrating night trying to find amongst other things where Stannis is, and at one stage she does indeed cry out to be shown Azor Ahai. Afterwards she complains that instead all she sees is Snow, as in Jon Snow. However the point is that she's not asking R'hllor to reveal who Azor Ahai is. She already knows he's Stannis - even if she had to make him himself; all she wants to see right now is where Stannis has got to, not who Azor Ahai is.

Before she summoned her energy for one last look she reflected on the need to see what R'Hllor sends rather than get distracted by what she wants to see, and in this case instead of giving her a GPS fix on Stannis, she gets warnings about Jon Snow, which are obviously more urgent than satisfying her curiosity as to what Stannis is getting up to when she's not looking.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

Boy, I seemed to have opened a can of worms pointing out that essay (that I found by accident mind you, wasn't what I was looking for). For the record, it later points out the dragon needs 3 heads thing & the song of ice & fire, indicating that if Dany is fire, Jon is both, so the third head should only be ice. & then he points to Bran. AA & PTWP are different only because each one is only a third of the equation. It's just his take is all.

[Twinslayer]

You're misremembering. At the start of Mel's POV she is spending a frustrating night trying to find amongst other things where Stannis is, and at one stage she does indeed cry out to be shown Azor Ahai. Afterwards she complains that instead all she sees is Snow, as in Jon Snow. However the point is that she's not asking R'hllor to reveal who Azor Ahai is. She already knows he's Stannis - even if she had to make him himself; all she wants to see right now is where Stannis has got to, not who Azor Ahai is.

(snip)

I think you are right. This sequence reminded me of the dreams Jon had in Game of Thrones where he saw his "father" come back as a wight, complete with blackened hands. I am pretty sure the face Jon saw in those dreams was the face of the man he believes to be his father (Ned). But that does not "prove" that Ned is actually Jon's father.

[Jon Icefyre]

But I do agree with you that AAR and the PtwP do refer to the same person. But on present evidence that person is Daenerys Targaryen.

That's a pretty strong assumption. I mean Jon has a dream where he fights the Others with a red burning sword in his hand no need for having to interpret what that means. Mel see's Jon in the flames, and when Jon is being stabbed to death by the NW smoke starts to rise from his wounds, while there are numerous things around the wall that could represent salt as people have mentioned a few times on here already. So as far as "present" evidence goes I'd say a betting man would pick Jon over Dany as AA.

[Ser Grimes]

Crack the pot: I think that when GRRM started writing the books, R+L=J, but now that everyone realized it so quickly, he was forced to re-write the entire series and elongate it to somehow make R+L NOT J. Hence all the delays in putting out the books.

[Old-Growth]

You're correct, I was typing too fast and too annoyed. :P

Well, I was annoyed by the post by you to which I was responding, so we're even. :)

[Old-Growth]

Crack the pot: I think that when GRRM started writing the books, R+L=J, but now that everyone realized it so quickly, he was forced to re-write the entire series and elongate it to somehow make R+L NOT J. Hence all the delays in putting out the books.

Well, since GRRM has said that he does not change plot points on account of what readers have figured out, your point is incorrect. Further what he has said about the reasons for the delay, namely the need to eliminate the five year gap and to untie the Meereenese Knot adequately explain the time taken to write Feast and Dance.

[Ser Grimes]

Well, since GRRM has said that he does not change plot points on account of what readers have figured out, your point is incorrect.

Damn...thought I was on to something :(

UNLESS...GRRM is lying to mislead us!!

[Jon Icefyre]

UNLESS...GRRM is lying to mislead us!!

He doesn't do that

[Old-Growth]

You're misremembering. At the start of Mel's POV she is spending a frustrating night trying to find amongst other things where Stannis is, and at one stage she does indeed cry out to be shown Azor Ahai. Afterwards she complains that instead all she sees is Snow, as in Jon Snow. However the point is that she's not asking R'hllor to reveal who Azor Ahai is. She already knows he's Stannis - even if she had to make him himself; all she wants to see right now is where Stannis has got to, not who Azor Ahai is.

Before she summoned her energy for one last look she reflected on the need to see what R'Hllor sends rather than get distracted by what she wants to see, and in this case instead of giving her a GPS fix on Stannis, she gets warnings about Jon Snow, which are obviously more urgent than satisfying her curiosity as to what Stannis is getting up to when she's not looking.

Just so: she did not ask to see Azor Ahai, but asks explicitly "Show me Stannis." It is only afterwards that she thinks that she asked to see Azor Ahai. An understandable reflection on her part, given that she believes Stannis is AAR, but not something that gives us any reason to believe that Jon is AAR.