R+L = J v 38

[Zupoleon]

Yes, but I've seen people argue that this is a contrived plot device. It is a plot device, but it's not contrived at all, because we have so many precedents, and one of them is the first child of Rhaegar himself.

Absolutely. If anything, Martin has given us more than enough examples (Rhaenys, Baelor Breakspear, etc...) that tells us the Targ trait takes a back seat to darker features.

[dragontamer]

Name your 3 strongest arguments against R+L=J and then tell us who you think Jon's parents are and we'll see what makes more sense.

Imo Lyanna is the mother but Rhaegar is not the father. I’ve said again that, inspired by the story of Bael the Bard, I believe that is not a coincidence that Littlefinger’s name is Bael-ish (like Bael). I read in a Martin interview that he gave some serious thought when he chose the names of his characters and I just find it weird if it’s just a coincidence. What do you think?

I’m not going to give you arguments as 1. 2. 3. But rather explain my point of view…

Rhaegar wanted stability and peace. Rhaegar was willing to go against his father to achieve this. Rhaegar believed that Aegon was the PWWP. All these just a year prior to the ‘elopement”. Where does Lyanna fit in all these plans?

By eloping he put in danger both the realm and his family. Some say that he couldn’t anticipate Brandon’s actions. This is totally and completely irrational. Even though he couldn’t anticipate his exact reactions he knew both the Starks and the Baratheons would be furious, thus jeopardizing his efforts to bring peace to the realm. And even if I accept that; there is no excuse for not showing up afterwards but waited almost a year. This is the big issue imo. Why did he wait? Was he at the ToJ all this time? Again some people say that Rickard agreed. Absolutely no way. If Rickard had agreed to this, then he would have break the engagement and at most anger the Baratheons but still give no cause for war, especially with the support of the Targaryens.

There is Elia too and Dorne of course. Targaryens practice polygamy. Agreed. But the last one known Targaryen who wedded more than one wife was hundreds of years before and even if there are others after him it is highly rare and definitely hasn’t happened the last 100+ years. Of course this means little if any but there is no other family or reference about a family who practices polygamy in Westeros. In this case what happens if one of the wives isn’t a Targaryen? Is it up to the woman and her family to decide whether they agree on a polygamous marriage? What I mean to say is that if Elia didn’t agree, Rhaegar could still take another wife? And there is absolutely no logical reason Elia would agree or Dorne as a matter of fact.

Also the timing doesn’t make any sense. When someone elopes out of passion and love they don’t wait a year and only after Elia couldn’t have other children. This shows calculation. And if Rhaegar simply needed another child he could choose someone else, someone less risky and if she had to be of “ice” there are other houses in the North. No to mention that Rhaegar didn’t change his mind (at least we don’t know this) about Aegon being the PWWP so the necessity of an ice-wife isn’t apparent at all. Psychologically it makes no sense for cautious Rhaegar who has been borne in such grief and has lived with that his whole life to act in such childish and frivolous way. The only way this could happen was in the heat of the moment but we know it didn’t, otherwise it’s simply out of his character and with no reason at all.

Lastly, as I see it, Martin has build up Jon’s character as a genuine Stark member both in appearance and character. It is highly suggested (even Catelyn says something like that)that he is more Stark than all Eddard’s children from Catelyn. So in the end I believe that his father won’t play a role where “name” is concerned. Jon is and always will be a Stark, it is hinted often throughout the books. The son of Rhaegar would never be simply just a Stark.

[Twinslayer]

This is a big stretch. There's a difference between saying that someone is "Lord of X" and calling them "Lord Stark", as Ygritte does with the Bael the Bard story. This would be akin to calling Robert "Lord Robert" because he is referred to as "Lord of the Seven Kingdoms." It just doesn't work. If you're a king, then people will call you King so-and-so (and there is no reason why Ygritte might recognize the Starks as lords but not kings, especially since the wildlings have known the Starks as kings for a lot longer than they've known them as lords).

ETA--Besides, Ygritte mentions that Bael took the Kingsroad in her story, and the Kingsroad wasn't built until the reign of Jaehaerys the Conciliator.

Well, Ned is variously called Lord Eddard, Lord Stark, Lord Hand. He's also Warden of the North. And I can't see Ygritte calling the old "Lord Brandon" the "King in the North" in the same discussion where she says she thinks of Winterfell as being in the "south."

But I like your point about the kingsroad. Do you recall where it is established that Jaehaerys built it?

[Twinslayer]

That's where you go wrong - one of your wrong generalisations again.

Every single time when Lyanna is associated with blue roses, the connection comes from Lyanna's personal like of blue roses (Ned mentions that she loved the smell). Thus, for her personal like, the blue roses would have symbolized her and her only even if she were a Manderly instead of Stark.

I don't follow you. We are talking about Dany's vision of a blue rose, not Lyanna's.

[Dragonfish]

Well, Ned is variously called Lord Eddard, Lord Stark, Lord Hand. He's also Warden of the North.

Yes, but he's not a king. The point is that calling someone "Lord X" when they're actually a king is simply not the normal protocol.

And I can't see Ygritte calling the old "Lord Brandon" the "King in the North" in the same discussion where she says she thinks of Winterfell as being in the "south."

She doesn't have to call him King in the North, just "King Brandon."

But I like your point about the kingsroad. Do you recall where it is established that Jaehaerys built it?

Not offhand, no.

[FittleLinger]

I don't follow you. We are talking about Dany's vision of a blue rose, not Lyanna's.

She meant that the blue rose is a personal symbol of Lyanna, not any Stark girl, because of Lyanna's personal connection with the exact flower, as opposed to being her symbol because of Bael the Bard story and her being a Stark.

[Dragonfish]

By eloping he put in danger both the realm and his family. Some say that he couldn’t anticipate Brandon’s actions. This is totally and completely irrational. Even though he couldn’t anticipate his exact reactions he knew both the Starks and the Baratheons would be furious, thus jeopardizing his efforts to bring peace to the realm.

Yes, and running away shuts down most of the irrational responses. You can't challenge someone to a duel if they're not there (unless you're Brandon, of course). It also insures that you can accomplish what you want to accomplish without interference. Once they returned with a child in tow, there would be little that anyone could do to set the marriage aside. The whole thing essentially becomes a fait accompli that everyone must accept, even if it's a bitter pill to swallow.

Also, I think you may underestimate the degree to which Rickard may have been aware of Lyanna's feelings for Rhaegar. If he understood that this was not a case of kidnapping but of a rebellious daughter, then he surely could have moderated the "official" reaction a bit (though he still would probably have been angry). Unfortunately, Brandon prevented that from happening.

And even if I accept that; there is no excuse for not showing up afterwards but waited almost a year.

He didn't wait a year. He showed up soon after the Battle of the Bells, which was just a few months into the war.

Also the timing doesn’t make any sense. When someone elopes out of passion and love they don’t wait a year and only after Elia couldn’t have other children. This shows calculation. And if Rhaegar simply needed another child he could choose someone else, someone less risky and if she had to be of “ice” there are other houses in the North.

Why can't it be a mixture of both? The way I see it, Rhaegar became infatuated with her at Harrenhal but refrained from going any further out of duty. But when he found out that Elia couldn't have any more children, he realized that fulfilling his duty and his own happiness could very well coincide (though it may very well be that his own love for Lyanna clouded his judgment on this).

As for why it had to be Lyanna specifically, we can't know for sure, because we don't know which prophecies he read. The whole "ice" thing is just speculation, of course. You claim he could have chosen any daughter of the North, but I don't see it. To me, "ice" doesn't refer to someone from the North, but to someone who has domain over the North. But as I said, this is all just speculation.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Yes, but he's not a king. The point is that calling someone "Lord X" when they're actually a king is simply not the normal protocol.

She doesn't have to call him King in the North, just "King Brandon."

Not offhand, no.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Kingsroad

attributed to Jaehaerys, who reigned 48-103, and said to be about 200 years old. Wiki references ACOK

[Dragonfish]

http://awoiaf.wester...x.php/Kingsroad

attributed to Jaehaerys, who reigned 48-103, and said to be about 200 years old. Wiki references ACOK

Yes, but I think Twinslayer is looking for a direct reference from the books.

[MtnLion]

You know, I was reading through the Bael the Bard, and it came to me: Mance knows who Jon is!

Bael is a Targaryen type name.

Bael was a bard, he may have played a silver harp, eh?

He stole the Lord of Winterfell's daughter.

He returned her with a son and blue rose.

Sure sounds like Rhaegar taking Lyanna, and returning Jon. The names have been changed to protect the innocent. ;)

[Black Wolf Smith]

That was my first reaction, since personally I like the theory that Bael was a Targ (based on the "ae" in his name and the SSM that says "If you want to figure out a family's descent, the names are a better clue than the eyes . . . The 'ae' usage usually sugggests a Valyrian in the family tree" -- note that this would draw the parrallel between Rhaegar and Bael even closer, thus providing further support for R+L=J):

I think a simpler answer is Bael = Baelish.

It is also funny that Bael stole a Stark daughter, and Baelish is now trying to do the same thing. To me at least, that speaks volumes.

[Jon Icefyre]

Where's Apple Martini when you need her? lol

[Erudain]

it's friday....it's a working day :P

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Yes, but I think Twinslayer is looking for a direct reference from the books.

"Jaehaerys the Conciliator had the kingsroad built (IV: 548)"

from Citadel Concordance 2.1 "The Targaryens"

*Concordance page references are to UK HC edition, but there it is.

[Queen of Procrastination]

1. Rhaegar wanted stability and peace. Rhaegar was willing to go against his father to achieve this. Rhaegar believed that Aegon was the PWWP. All these just a year prior to the ‘elopement”. Where does Lyanna fit in all these plans?

2. By eloping he put in danger both the realm and his family. Some say that he couldn’t anticipate Brandon’s actions. This is totally and completely irrational. 3. Even though he couldn’t anticipate his exact reactions he knew both the Starks and the Baratheons would be furious, thus jeopardizing his efforts to bring peace to the realm. And even if I accept that; there is no excuse for not showing up afterwards but waited almost a year. This is the big issue imo. Why did he wait? Was he at the ToJ all this time? 3. Again some people say that Rickard agreed. Absolutely no way. If Rickard had agreed to this, then he would have break the engagement and at most anger the Baratheons but still give no cause for war, especially with the support of the Targaryens.

4. There is Elia too and Dorne of course. Targaryens practice polygamy. Agreed. But the last one known Targaryen who wedded more than one wife was hundreds of years before and even if there are others after him it is highly rare and definitely hasn’t happened the last 100+ years. Of course this means little if any but there is no other family or reference about a family who practices polygamy in Westeros. In this case what happens if one of the wives isn’t a Targaryen? Is it up to the woman and her family to decide whether they agree on a polygamous marriage? What I mean to say is that if Elia didn’t agree, Rhaegar could still take another wife? And there is absolutely no logical reason Elia would agree or Dorne as a matter of fact.

5. Also the timing doesn’t make any sense. When someone elopes out of passion and love they don’t wait a year and only after Elia couldn’t have other children. This shows calculation. And if Rhaegar simply needed another child he could choose someone else, someone less risky and if she had to be of “ice” there are other houses in the North. No to mention that Rhaegar didn’t change his mind (at least we don’t know this) about Aegon being the PWWP so the necessity of an ice-wife isn’t apparent at all. Psychologically it makes no sense for cautious Rhaegar who has been borne in such grief and has lived with that his whole life to act in such childish and frivolous way. The only way this could happen was in the heat of the moment but we know it didn’t, otherwise it’s simply out of his character and with no reason at all.

6. Lastly, as I see it, Martin has build up Jon’s character as a genuine Stark member both in appearance and character. It is highly suggested (even Catelyn says something like that)that he is more Stark than all Eddard’s children from Catelyn. So in the end I believe that his father won’t play a role where “name” is concerned. Jon is and always will be a Stark, it is hinted often throughout the books. The son of Rhaegar would never be simply just a Stark.

1. Lyanna fits with the "Song of Ice and Fire" he needed a Northern woman. He could have taken a woman from another house though, but they don´t have Stark blood, which seems to be something special like the Targaryan/ Valirian blood which is needed to tame the dragons. Of course most northern families have bits of Starg blood in them, because some Stark married into the family, but a few drops are not enough, the same like the few drops of Targ blood Quentyn has are not enough to tame the dragons.

2. Since when is love rational. Besides really foolish demanding to the Crown Prince to come out and die is treason which is suicide of course a reaction from Brandon and Robert could have been expected, but not such a suicidal one. Oberyn was hot tempered, too, but he didn´t demand Robert or Tywin to come out and die. The ToJ was very isolated it took some time for the news to reach Rhaegar, besided only few people knew were Rhaegar and Lyanna were staying so how should the message have reached them?

3. Agree on this one.

4. Martin sayd that there may have been some other Targs who have praticed poligamy eccept the ones we no about. We know that Rhaegar didn´t love Elia, he was only fond of her, many people believe that she didn´t love him either and had a lover of her own. IMO Rhaegar and Elia had some agreement to do their duty and provide a heir to the IT and it was okay for them to have lovers. Besides she was from Dorne where many nobles kept paramours, the only difference between a paramour which is the nobles lover for years and practicing poligamy is that the nobles other lover is married to him or her.

5. He only eveloped with her after it came clear that Lyanna couldn´t have more children.

6. Jon did also some things Ned wouldn´t have done for example not killing Ygritte, that was more Rhaegar´s style than Ned´s

@ Gi_Varotti: My I believe that, too wasn´t reffering to Mtn Lion´s theory it was reffering to your "Dany and Aegon will marry and end the feud between House Targaryen and House Blackfyre" comment. I believe that Dany and Aegon will marry to end that feud.

[Ygrain]

She meant that the blue rose is a personal symbol of Lyanna, not any Stark girl, because of Lyanna's personal connection with the exact flower, as opposed to being her symbol because of Bael the Bard story and her being a Stark.

That. Personal connection for a particular Stark daughter, not a Stark daughter. As in, Lyanna, specifically.

[FrozenFire3]

Lastly, as I see it, Martin has build up Jon’s character as a genuine Stark member both in appearance and character. It is highly suggested (even Catelyn says something like that)that he is more Stark than all Eddard’s children from Catelyn. So in the end I believe that his father won’t play a role where “name” is concerned. Jon is and always will be a Stark, it is hinted often throughout the books. The son of Rhaegar would never be simply just a Stark.

He was his father's son. Wasn't he? Wasn't he?

There so much more than Ned in Jon... beyond nurture, nature. A brooding complexity which is great part of his appeal as character.

He IS a Stark, with Stark blood. He was brought up as a Stark. But thanks the gods he is not a bi-dimensional carbon copy of Ned. It's in the tense moments when he struggles with his 'nurture legacy' (and echoes of a 'nature legacy' affirm themselves) that he fully owns the scene. Full rounded characters are never simply something. Not black or white. Not Ice or Fire. They rather integrate contradictions and complexities, most of times at a dire personal cost. Yeah, Ice... AND Fire.

[SFDanny]

Gotta say, I don't buy the idea that the blue rose symbolizes a particular Stark female, Stark females in general, or the Starks for that matter. I've always believed the blue rose is a symbol of passionate love, and seemingly unattainable love to boot. It is a symbol that has resonance in the north in particular because the flower is the winter rose that grows there, but it isn't necessarily something only a northerner is associated with. Bael leaves his winter rose as a symbol of his forbidden love for the Lord Stark's daughter. Rhaegar sings the song of Bael to tell Lyanna of his forbidden love for the betrothed Lyanna. And Daenerys sees her vision of a blue rose at the Wall that symbolizes where she will find her love, though a love that cannot end in happily ever after because of the larger needs of Westeros in fighting the Others (Jon has gotta stay with the Watch.) I think we try too hard to tie the vision to particular people because of who they are instead of seeing how the tragic symbolism of the flower fits certain people because of their circumstances.

It is this way I think Lyanna holds onto the flower she receives from Rhaegar at Harrenhal or at the Tower of Joy. She isn't holding on to a symbol of herself, but she is holding on to a symbol of the love between Rhaegar and herself - a love that was forbidden by their families and most of Westeros, but one that had to find a way to bloom. One of the main reasons I think Lyanna loved Rhaegar and not just that he loved her. My take anyway.

[Jon Icefyre]

Gotta say, I don't buy the idea that the blue rose symbolizes a particular Stark female, Stark females in general, or the Starks for that matter. I've always believed the blue rose is a symbol of passionate love, and seemingly unattainable love to boot. It is a symbol that has resonance in the north in particular because the flower is the winter rose that grows there, but it isn't necessarily something only a northerner is associated with. Bael leaves his winter rose as a symbol of his forbidden love for the Lord Stark's daughter. Rhaegar sings the song of Bael to tell Lyanna of his forbidden love for the betrothed Lyanna. And Daenerys sees her vision of a blue rose at the Wall that symbolizes where she will find her love, though a love that cannot end in happily ever after because of the larger needs of Westeros in fighting the Others (Jon has gotta stay with the Watch.) I think we try too hard to tie the vision to particular people because of who they are instead of seeing how the tragic symbolism of the flower fits certain people because of their circumstances.

It is this way I think Lyanna holds onto the flower she receives from Rhaegar at Harrenhal or at the Tower of Joy. She isn't holding on to a symbol of herself, but she is holding on to a symbol of the love between Rhaegar and herself - a love that was forbidden by their families and most of Westeros, but one that had to find a way to bloom. One of the main reasons I think Lyanna loved Rhaegar and not just that he loved her. My take anyway.

I don't think Jon stays in the Watch. The Watch will need a lot more men to fight by their side in order to win the upcoming war with The Others. Jon won't be able to summon more men to fight for the NW just simply as LC and wouldn't be able make any non NW men fight if they don't want to. He'll need a more powerful title like King of the North or possibly even just Lord of Winterfell in order to rally the men/army/armies he would then have dominion over to help the NW fight off the others the same way Stannis marched his men down to the wall to help the NW fight of the wildlings.

[SFDanny]

I don't think Jon stays in the Watch. The Watch will need a lot more men to fight by their side in order to win the upcoming war with The Others. Jon won't be able to summon more men to fight for the NW just simply as LC and wouldn't be able make any non NW man fight if they don't want to. He'll need a more powerful title like King of the North or possibly even just Lord of Winterfell in order to rally the men/army/armies he would then have dominion over to help the NW fight off the others the same way Stannis marched his men down to the wall to help the NW fight of the wildlings.

Actually I think Jon's title is the most important one he needs. When the Night's Watch was formed if was the united response of hundreds of squabbling little kingdoms to the threat of the Others. The Lord Commander stood above those petty squabbles and was, in effect, the commander-in-chief of the unified military in the war. Jon has to fill that role again, it seems to me, and he can't do so as the King in the North or as the Targaryen heir to the Iron Throne. I think that only by refusing both does he become what is needed - a Lord Commander in the old sense of the title.