Whom do you foresee Arya having to marry, if anyone at all?

[Mladen]

Assassins aren't warriors. They have a different focus and techniques.

So, it`s about focus and techniques? I don`t think so. Their philosophy may have deeper roots, but I am not buying it...

[Elba the Intoner]

I'm thinking that Jaime is speaking a truth he didn't know, and the truth is that Sansa was recently wed (not Arya) and at this point Brienne is on Arya's trail (even though she thinks she's on Sansa's).

Gendry is both a blacksmith and an innkeep at this point.

Yeah I guess I can see that inversion, except Gendry is not fat faced. I think that's a reference to Hot Pie.

[ARYa_Nym]

So, it`s about focus and techniques? I don`t think so. Their philosophy may have deeper roots, but I am not buying it...

I'm not saying it is about focus and techniques but that they aren't the same as warriors. What one does won't apply to the other for the most part.

They see motherhood as a direct opposition to what they represent.

Male recruits don't have a family either. They have no name. They have no wife. They are no one's child.

[Mladen]

I'm not saying it is about focus and techniques but that they aren't the same as warriors. What one does won't apply to the other for the most part.

They see motherhood as a direct opposition to what they represent.

Male recruits don't have a family either. They have no name. They have no wife. They are no one's child.

Ok, I get the first part but bolded is a little bit blurry. They, as we all, are someone`s children. The fact they have to renounce their life so they could serve death is actually nothing more than living by another code. You still live, and the fact you have no name, changes nothing. And I still think that Arya will proved to be the most difficult accolyte to adapt. Her basic instincts are fighting against that, her heart and soul are fighting against that. One day, she`ll just have to deal with the fact she`ll be a great she-warrior but never FM

[ARYa_Nym]

Ok, I get the first part but bolded is a little bit blurry. They, as we all, are someone`s children. The fact they have to renounce their life so they could serve death is actually nothing more than living by another code. You still live, and the fact you have no name, changes nothing. And I still think that Arya will proved to be the most difficult accolyte to adapt. Her basic instincts are fighting against that, her heart and soul are fighting against that. One day, she`ll just have to deal with the fact she`ll be a great she-warrior but never FM

It's part of their philosophy that the past is behind them so being someone's child stays in the past.

She's not a warrior though in the strict sense nor is there time for her to develop advanced martial skills. She would die if she tried. For example I've never understood theories that wanted her to be in a KG type of situation because it's equivalent to wishing death on her. If you take notice of most of her skills they are not done in the way of a warrior.

I think she may in another sense but by being a commander.

The way the FM fight is actually more suited for someone of her build. She was already a spy from AGoT so she learns to hone her skills even more with the FM.

She learns additional things such as languages and learning to tell lies from body language.

A warrior is so much less than that.

She may leave the FM eventually but she is definitely gaining valuable skills and for now is where she wants to be.

[Mladen]

She learns additional things such as languages and learning to tell lies from body language.

A warrior is so much less than that.

She may leave the FM eventually but she is definitely gaining valuable skills and for now is where she wants to be.

I can`t see Arya totally becoming no one. As also I can`t see her as a Lady. But, she has path somewhere between that, and I agree that skills she will acquire during FM traiing are far superior than ordinary warrior skills.

[ARYa_Nym]

That Jamie quote says it's best she forgets she was a Stark. There are many oppositions to Arya doing so as a FM but I don't think it would be okay to forget she was a Stark for Gendry or Hot Pie. Neither of them are worth it. There's no real pay off. It's going to be hard for her to trust them again anyways.

[Mladen]

That Jamie quote says it's best she forgets she was a Stark. There are many oppositions to Arya doing so as a FM but I don't think it would be okay to forget she was a Stark for Gendry or Hot Pie. Neither of them are worth it. There's no real pay off. It's going to be hard for her to trust them again anyways.

What is holding her from becoming Fm is basically Needle and Nymeria...Those two which are closest to her heart represent Starkness in her, everything she is. She is wild as Nymeria and sharp as Needle, but she also was made in Winterfell(like Needle), and belongs to different pack(Stark pack of direwolves). That`s why I am thinking she would never fully become FM

[Pod The Impaler]

I found that concept relatively strange. You can`t serve both life and death. And what of those countless warriors and fathers? Ned killed many people, and yet he was a loving father...Is the concept made for women only, or does it apply to men too?

Well, aside from being killers in the mundane sense, they are more than that - they are a priesthood of Death, their mission is holy to them, and their devotion must be total.

Hence the danger to Arya. The implication is Arya must give up all possible futures but service to the Many Faced God. Their religious attitude may include the idea that bearing children is serving life and this sacrilege. Her mentor speaks to the typical role women have in life for nurturing life (and you can debate if this is biological or socialized if you want), as if this is the reason why women do not make good FM's.

Yet, we cannot discount that the issue is more than just religious / philosophical. The FM use dark magic in what they do. In that sense Arya may be making a pact to have all the eggs she will ever have in her, all the potential lives in her, dry up and die - in fact by swearing she will, and taking a face, she may have already done so.

Not a thought that I like, but a fear that I have for her.

[ARYa_Nym]

Well, aside from being killers in the mundane sense, they are more than that - they are a priesthood of Death, their mission is holy to them, and their devotion must be total.

Hence the danger to Arya. The implication is Arya must give up all possible futures but service to the Many Faced God. Their religious attitude may include the idea that bearing children is serving life and this sacrilege. Her mentor speaks to the typical role women have in life for nurturing life (and you can debate if this is biological or socialized if you want), as if this is the reason why women do not make good FM's.

Yet, we cannot discount that the issue is more than just religious / philosophical. The FM use dark magic in what they do. In that sense Arya may be making a pact to have all the eggs she will ever have in her, all the potential lives in her, dry up and die - in fact by swearing she will, and taking a face, she may have already done so.

Not a thought that I like, but a fear that I have for her.

Agreed.

It's possible. I wasn't sure at what stage they would prevent her from reproducing. When she flowers? When she formally initiates herself? You bring up a good point that it may have started with the face changing. They could easily just put stuff in her drinks or during her potions/poisons lessons she inhaled all this stuff that make her sick and we don't know what all of them do.

ADWD I think was a turning point because he did not say you lie this time at the end of her second chapter so she's progressed now.

I mentioned that her wolf may potentially be the same and never reproduce.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Well, aside from being killers in the mundane sense, they are more than that - they are a priesthood of Death, their mission is holy to them, and their devotion must be total.

Hence the danger to Arya. The implication is Arya must give up all possible futures but service to the Many Faced God. Their religious attitude may include the idea that bearing children is serving life and this sacrilege. Her mentor speaks to the typical role women have in life for nurturing life (and you can debate if this is biological or socialized if you want), as if this is the reason why women do not make good FM's.

Yet, we cannot discount that the issue is more than just religious / philosophical. The FM use dark magic in what they do. In that sense Arya may be making a pact to have all the eggs she will ever have in her, all the potential lives in her, dry up and die - in fact by swearing she will, and taking a face, she may have already done so.

Not a thought that I like, but a fear that I have for her.

As you said, they are a religion. As such, we can assume that they share some views with the other religions we know, one of them being the true meaning of sacrifice.

I don't remember now if it was septon Meribald or the Elder Brother who explained why it is meaningless for a mute to take a vow of silence.

So, I don't think they sterilize their female members, in the same way the failth don't cut off the tongues of the silent Sisters. It is a constant sacrifice their members must make, based on consious choice that roots from their belief.

There are some misinterpretations made because of the physical condition of the Waif. The way she is, is a result of her stepmother poisoning her when she was a child, it's not something the FM did to her.

The same goes about the FM forgetting their original identity. I think this is absurd. (The waif remembers, so it is not supported from the text either). As I see it, it is a spiritual aspiration to reach a level where what they used to be doesn't matter, to distance themselves from love, hate, ambition and so on. They know that it is extremely difficult to achieve this completely, it is an unreachable ideal and that's why they have the rule not to kill people they know. If they were trully no-one, this rule would be meaningless.

[ARYa_Nym]

The KM told Arya that she can become like the waif if she wants. All she has to do is tell him. They wouldn't force that on her. That's a matter of stunted growth though. Anne Rice's Claudia was thrown around elsewhere as a comparison but she was a vamp.

I think there is some literal aspect to it because they did blind her but I don't think they take all of her body parts physically. She just must give them up as something that belongs to her in her mind. It must belong to the MFG.

I think becoming no one is similar to the NW but more extreme. Jon said I have no brothers only you. Arya said my only brothers are the ones that wear black and white. I agree that it's supposed to not matter and also agree with Pod that it's for efficiency. They can't have personal ties to interfere with the mission.

They want absolute loyalty so they can't allow members to get married and have children.

ETA: That reminds me that I read in another Arya thread that GRRM wrote A Song for Lya where he has one of his female characters give up their individuality for a cult.

SPOILER:

The "Lya" of the title is the young woman absorbed into the Greeshka and the lover of the male narrator. Basically, the Greeshka is this big parasite that consumes people, either slowly or quickly; this is called Joining. The people's consciousness continues within the Greeshka, though, so that it's a perfect experience of union: perfect joy, perfect love, perfect belonging, above any human experience of romantic love, joy or connection. Lya is a telepath who feels the Joined people's ecstasy at being part of the Greeshka so strongly that she chooses to leave the narrator and be Joined herself as well. There's a Littlefinger-like character who scorns the "religion" as the Greeshka preying on people by giving them a dose of love/joy feelings to lure them in to be absorbed. Lya looks a little like Arya, in that she's small, beautiful--as Arya likely will be, if she lives long enough--and dark-haired, but their personalities aren't really alike at all. There's another female character who's an "auburn-haired vision" and the lover of the Littlefinger-like character, although they break up because the Littlefinger-like character keeps part of himself back and isn't really capable of a true human connection.

It's lovely and sad and makes you think about connection and the religious experience. Very good. The Greeshka are not like the Faceless Men at all, really. The only connection that I can see has to do with the loss of individuality, but even then the "souls" are all intact within the Greeshka, they've just lost their bodies. The Greeshka doesn't require that individuals make themselves "no one" as the FM do.

http://asoiaf.wester...20#entry3609206

A description from Ice Turtle:

The most notable of the stories, "A Song For Lya" arguably still ranks as Martin's finest work. "Lya" is a beautifully sad meditation on love and loss, telling a moving tale of a young, vital woman who is willingly absorbed into The Greeshka, a strange collective "religion" that ultimately sucks the individuality out of those who choose to join it. It deservedly won the Hugo Award as best novella of 1973.

[Ice Turtle]

A description from Ice Turtle:

Just small note, it's not my description it's description from Amayon.com.

[ARYa_Nym]

Just small note, it's not my description it's description from Amayon.com.

I meant to credit that you were the one who posted it.

[Ice Turtle]

I meant to credit that you were the one who posted it.

:dunno: , well thanks

[ARYa_Nym]

:dunno: , well thanks

You're welcome. It's a habit of mine for the most part.

[Arachne]

I'm sure this has been discussed to death, but does anyone think it's odd that Eddard told Arya she'd marry a king? What king? Robert's married and Joffery's already betrothed to Sansa. Neither of Prince Doran's sons were likely to inherit and they wouldn't be kings, anyway. It seems very strange.

[Ame]

Just a question; when Ned tells her that in spite of his indulging her with Syrio she will be a wife of someone and just have the standard female role did Arya react as if that is ok with her or did she want to take on male roles in life?

The way I see it her problem with the order isn't that she can't get married and have children; it is the demand to forget all who she has ever known and what she knew before joining. If she could let go of Nymeria and Needle I think her membership will be permanent.

She doesn't like Westerosi society; she doesn't like a socially stratified society, male supremacy, supremacy of the oldest, nobility, and she hardly has any family left. If Davos retrieves Rickon that makes Rickon and Sansa. Brann will not re-emerge and Uncle Brandon has been lost beyond the wall for so long. I might have said Cat but she is undead, and Jon I think is probably dead. She has little family to return to; and she doesn't like the society she grew up in as is; why would she go back and seek a husband in it?

[Arachne]

Arya asked Ned if she could do the things he told her Bran might do when he grew up. When Ned told her she'd get married instead, she just replied "No, that's Sansa".

I think she'll be led back to Westeros as a result of some FM assignment. I don't think she's going to be seeking a husband, but she might some across someone she'll decide to marry at some point.

[ARYa_Nym]

I'm sure this has been discussed to death, but does anyone think it's odd that Eddard told Arya she'd marry a king? What king? Robert's married and Joffery's already betrothed to Sansa. Neither of Prince Doran's sons were likely to inherit and they wouldn't be kings, anyway. It seems very strange.

The show changed it to lord possibly because king doesn't make sense.

Theon thought that Ned would have given Arya to him but I think that's delusion but even still Theon wouldn't have been king.

He's not talking about Jon Snow obviously because Ned never planned for House Targaeryn to return and Jon was in the I shall wear no crown NW at the time. The only king he could be is NK.

Although when Brienne thought Willow was Arya she said:

Gendry was the closest thing to a man grown, but it was Willow shouting all the orders, as if

she were a queen in her castle and the other children were no more than servants. If she were highborn, command would come naturally to her, and deference to them.

Brienne wondered whether Willow might be more than she appeared. The girl was too young and too plain to be Sansa Stark, but she was of the right age to be the younger sister, and even Lady Catelyn had said that Arya lacked her sister’s beauty.

She calls Willow a queen and wonders if she's Arya.

I know GRRM uses warrior loosely with females. Nymeria wasn't a combatant for example. Maybe queen can also be loose too. He means queen of a castle as in she will marry some high lord and he will treat her as a queen. That Tom O'Sevens song he says he'll put a crown on her head which the woman rejects. It may not mean a literal royal queen.