Failings of feminism - real or not?

[Seli]

....

The argument that I believe Julia Serano goes on to make from there is that while feminists have been relatively successful in empowering women, it has failed to empower femininity. Whether it is by a deliberate choice to throw femininity under the bus and embrace masculine behaviour as a means to gain accept, or just as an oversight in methodology, or even a deliberate choice that we can't empower femininity yet, that's a fight for a more equal time I still think that counts as a failure of feminism on some level.

...

Even though I've only just started the book, I'm very receptive to this argument that femininity has not been empowered, because I very much agree with the point that feminine is very much viewed as inferior to masculine. A lot of the women that manage to rise to high positions do it by either being like men, or by being strong in traits that are considered masculine. Displays of femininity are considered a negative, a sign of weakness - as seen in the Sansa and dresses example from near the start of this thread.

The other argument that Julia Serano has is that in addition to traditional sexism, true equality requires the ending of oppositional sexism - that is the positioning of male and female, masculine and feminine as opposites when they don't have to be. This positioning means that any time the masculine is seen as a good thing, by definition the feminine is going to be a negative. If masculine is strong, feminine is weak etc. I can't really do any more credit to this argument yet, but hopefully I can do better once I have read more of it. I have not seen this brought up as a goal of feminism before, however it's more than possible that's just my ignorance on this side of things. I can comment on femininity not being empowered because I see that all around me, but I need to be more well read to comment on the actual goals of feminism.

....

This rings true, and I have seen it discussed in context of genre works recently (which does mean Sci should have a bunch of links on the subject). In that context the observation is that 99 times out of 100 a strong female character is strong because she emulates 'typical' male behaviour.

Now I think about it it is also an issue in discussion on race and culture, where the question is on whether the usual pathway which is to mimic the dominant culture actually is good in the long run.

So it does seem that this question is/will be the important one of this generation of emancipation. (or just has likely has occurred before and I did not notice due to my privileged shelter).

[Isalie]

I decided to ask my grandfather what he thought of it.

Maybe you should've asked your grandmother.

[karaddin]

(or just has likely has occurred before and I did not notice due to my privileged shelter).

That's the wonderful thing about privilege isn't it, it's so easy to just not even notice it's there which is why you get so many people thinking there isn't a problem.

[Leviathan I]

Maybe you should've asked your grandmother.

She's a republican, you won't get any love from her I'm afraid.

[JoannaL]

The argument that I believe Julia Serano goes on to make from there is that while feminists have been relatively successful in empowering women, it has failed to empower femininity. Whether it is by a deliberate choice to throw femininity under the bus and embrace masculine behaviour as a means to gain accept, or just as an oversight in methodology, or even a deliberate choice that we can't empower femininity yet, that's a fight for a more equal time I still think that counts as a failure of feminism on some level.

Even though I've only just started the book, I'm very receptive to this argument that femininity has not been empowered, because I very much agree with the point that feminine is very much viewed as inferior to masculine. A lot of the women that manage to rise to high positions do it by either being like men, or by being strong in traits that are considered masculine. Displays of femininity are considered a negative, a sign of weakness - as seen in the Sansa and dresses example from near the start of this thread.

Very interesting. This is like I feel, that feminism does not encompass the empowerment of me as a woman, apart from the areas where I can directly compete with men i.e. It helped me to get a good job, but it does not understand my need to care for my children.

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

Very interesting. This is like I feel, that feminism does not encompass the empowerment of me as a woman, apart from the areas where I can directly compete with men i.e. It helped me to get a good job, but it does not understand my need to care for my children.

I'd be interested in hearing what you need that you feel feminism [standard disclaimers apply] does not provide.

karaddin, I tend to agree that there's a devaluation of the feminine, but I disagree that it's *caused* by feminism.

Traditional femininity has always been tied in with the idea of the weaker sex, and being put on a pedestal, and so on, whether you want to be or not. As proto- and early feminists started rebelling against some of these ideas -- you don't need a corset to strengthen your midsection! a girl is not inherently incapable of learning Greek! -- I believe that a lot of the backlash against them was by reinforcing the feminine as the only acceptable way of being for women. That is, you don't want to be one of those nasssssty Rational Dress Society members, they're not really women at all!*

So there's this whole convoluted mess of the already-devalued femininity (you throw like a girl! women can't inherit/run a business/vote/think) being pushed again as the only 'appropriate' femininity. I'm not going to deny that there were never -- and still aren't -- some people, feminists and non-feminists, who will take it too far the other direction, trying to be "manly" to be accepted, or pushing the masculine as the ideal. So if it (femininity) is also being pushed by people upholding the status quo, it makes sense (from a thought process point of view) to try to reject that as part of the patriarchy.

Even now, my understanding is that choice feminism does try to raise awareness that yes it's a choice, but it's not contextless. You are influenced by society, your choices have effects on society, and so on.

*It's also all tied up in classism, racism, imperialism/colonialism, and so on. Stay pale - you look richer because you don't have to work. Be blonder - you won't be confused for <insert race or ethnicity X>. Bind your feet - prove that you don't have to even walk for yourself. Become the most beautiful / appropriate decoration you can, to prove the status of your father/husband/brother.

[Balefont]

Very interesting. This is like I feel, that feminism does not encompass the empowerment of me as a woman, apart from the areas where I can directly compete with men i.e. It helped me to get a good job, but it does not understand my need to care for my children.

It's too bad your outlook is tainted with the notion that feminism = you must work and not be a SAHM, instead of feminism = having the opportunity to choose in the first place.

[karaddin]

Eef - Just quickly before bed I want to clarify, I wasn't trying to state it was caused by feminism, just that if it's something that needs to be addressed still then thus far it's something feminism has failed to fix. Or even acknowledge as a needed goal to the best of my knowledge, but happy to be corrected on that part.

Hope that clears it up a little.

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

I dunno, I think the whole idea of choice feminism (and other portions of the movement) are indeed trying to reconcile traditional femininity with rejection of the patriarchy. There are still rigorous, justified criticism of things like .. I guess almost an ironic resurgence of domestic hobbies, particularly for women. It's all about finding that balance between domesticity not being inherently anti-feminist, and yet the way in which the larger trends can actually work against a message of true equality.

For example: Why is it mostly women? Or is it? Are men able to take up some of these hobbies as well without ridicule, etc? How much is based on socioeconomic status? Canning because it's a quaint, old-timey hobby is very different from canning because it's the only way to have fruit during the winter. Also, doing a hobby is (should be?) a far cry from actually dividing up household duties, or defining/reinforcing what is "women's work" and what is "men's work", and so on. (Speaking of, when's the last time a dish soap ad showed a man actually just doing the dishes. Mopping? Can you find a tool set made for slightly smaller hands that isn't pink? That absurd "Bic for her" pen debacle? Come on.)

[MinDonner]

Actually I think the devaluation of things coded "feminine" is something a lot of modern feminists are actively trying to address, though it can be hard for a lot of us to even notice when we grew up with the notion of (for an easy shorthand) Arya = Good, Sansa = Bad. Trying to explain to my second-wave-feminist mum why my dog is called Sansa, for example, is... a challenge. And this shit runs deep.

I was raised on the Famous Five books, which as everyone knows, features Girly Wuss Anne and Capable Tomboy George ("don't call me Georgina!") And George, our handy unfeminine role model, hates women as much as any MRA. I reread the series a couple of years ago and the venom practically drips off the page. But you see that kind of thing everywhere. The princess who dresses as a boy, she has adventures and is cool. So it's a real challenge to overcome this when it's so pervasive that a lot of even intelligent people barely notice it's happening. Which is one reason we complain about the Identikit Badass Chick that makes up too many of SFF's still-limited female cast.

As a contrast, I've mentioned this other recent YA series before in Lit, but it was so awesome to read a book where not only was one of the heroines a rather delicate femme who nonetheless had Speshul Herbalism Powers and was therefore able to save the world without putting on a Boy Disguise, but also the male hero had powers of knitting (much less lame than it sounds).

[Balefont]

One thing I'm pissed about is the lack of female sports-wash shower soap. You have all the "active man" body washes and all these "your shower is your spa" soaps for women. I want to feel CLEAN after a workout not all lotioned up by my soap.

[Lummel]

If what is feminine is constructed, implicitly or explicitly, as a contrast to what is masculine in a context were being a manly man man is to be the top dog then everything that is going to be defined as feminine is going to be inferior, secondary, less good from the root. Then there's going to be a tension between embracing what is feminine as a female space and a rejection of it as perpetuating inferiority.

How far it is useful to try and define the characteristics of half the human population and pretend that this is inherent or true irrespective of class, status, age, culture, nation, time in global history, geographic place or whether it is just a stupid thing to do from the get go and inextricably involved with what it means to be a man or a woman in a very particular context is another matter I suppose.

Historically men have knitted (if they were poor enough or in monasteries), its only become a majority female pursuit over time. I think the answer is that if you like knitting then knit. Better to drown in yarn than in semiotics!

[Blisscraft]

That's the point where the older women just laughed and said, wait and see. Wait and see how far up you get promoted, wait and see who gets the best bonuses and work assignments, wait and see if the fact that you don't play golf or house league hockey means you don't get invited out with the boys, wait and see what happens when you get married and want to have a baby.

And slowly but surely as time goes by in the workplace, what most women discover is that while the overt discrimination is gone, there are many other ways you can be held back or go unrecognized or unrewarded or shortchanged. And that's when you discover it's a competitive world and your friends would just as soon as stab you in the back, because it's nothing personal, it's just business. And all of a sudden feminist is no longer an anachronism or a dirty word.

I LOVE THIS! Thank you for this post. :bowdown: :wub: :thumbsup:

[Balefont]

This rings true, and I have seen it discussed in context of genre works recently (which does mean Sci should have a bunch of links on the subject). In that context the observation is that 99 times out of 100 a strong female character is strong because she emulates 'typical' male behaviour.

Now I think about it it is also an issue in discussion on race and culture, where the question is on whether the usual pathway which is to mimic the dominant culture actually is good in the long run.

So it does seem that this question is/will be the important one of this generation of emancipation. (or just has likely has occurred before and I did not notice due to my privileged shelter).

Great points, Seli.

I, personally, appreciate pink which is traditionally a feminine color. I have a pink PS3 controler which is just so damn pretty! I posted a picture of it to Facebook, however, and one woman remarked "Why pink? So not you." Apparently she was under the impression that me, being a strong, assertive female and blah blah blah wouldn't be a fan of pink. Granted, yeah, I'm not an image of feminity most of the time but that doesn't mean I also can't like pink.

I replied, "I embrace my inner pink."

So I guess I'm reclaiming pink.

[sologdin]

FB's lengthy description, above, reminds me of how law firms continue to operate in new orleans, where women might well be hired in numbers sufficiently large to defeat a presumption of discriminatory hiring, but where also many firms take the attitude that most female associates will eventually want maternity leave, which indicates a lack of enthusiasm for the firm's work, leading therefore to comparatively fewer female partners and shareholders in the law firms.

[straits]

........

And slowly but surely as time goes by in the workplace, what most women discover is that while the overt discrimination is gone, there are many other ways you can be held back or go unrecognized or unrewarded or shortchanged. And that's when you discover it's a competitive world and your friends would just as soon as stab you in the back, because it's nothing personal, it's just business. And all of a sudden feminist is no longer an anachronism or a dirty word.

Thanks for the post, it was very interesting!

I remember saying the following before in a similar thread, but it is not of interest because it sounds completely irrelevant: sexism will be promoted in the workplace as long as we are in a monetary system. Competition and drive for profit leads to shortcuts, easy ways out and cheap tactics. And since generation of capital is sacred, and money is a more powerful constant in our society than even a deity, this will not change unless you turn regulation of gender interaction (at the work place, in everyday life) into a profession.

[straits]

One thing I'm pissed about is the lack of female sports-wash shower soap. You have all the "active man" body washes and all these "your shower is your spa" soaps for women. I want to feel CLEAN after a workout not all lotioned up by my soap.

We just shave and drink alcohol in the shower. It is known.

[Blisscraft]

FB's lengthy description, above, reminds me of how law firms continue to operate in new orleans, where women might well be hired in numbers sufficiently large to defeat a presumption of discriminatory hiring, but where also many firms take the attitude that most female associates will eventually want maternity leave, which indicates a lack of enthusiasm for the firm's work, leading therefore to comparatively fewer female partners and shareholders in the law firms.

I don't think New Orleans is an exception. Although I am no longer working in the workplace, my friends and colleagues continue to struggle with this. Even within the US gov't, (I know someone who, finally exasperated with the "unwritten" policies of the US Attorney's Office, left after nearly twenty years of service) this subtle form of discrimination exits. Frontloading is what I like to call it.

[Sci-2]

sexism will be promoted in the workplace as long as we are in a monetary system.

?

I don't see how sexism follows by necessity from capitalism. If anything, promoting the less qualified leads to less money over time along with worse patient outcomes, worse designed software, etc.

[Balefont]

Reading all these stories makes me count my lucky stars because my National Tax Manager is a gay woman and our company works extremely hard to be diverse and inclusive.

That said, I did come across a diversity issue a few years after our department was created. I raised the issue to my Team Leader who then forwarded it to our then Manager (who is a direct report to the National Tax Manager).

Here are the emails (names have been changed to protect the guilty and innocent):

Dear Team Leader,

While I understand the value as well as efficiency garnered through the use of the employee referral system, I am concerned at what I feel to be a lack of diversity with regard to the recent new hires here in City A. Since the City A office began in July 2005, there have been 11 male Tax Assistants (TA) hired as opposed to 4 female TAs. I understand that several of our TAs may have been referred by their predecessors. Perhaps the referral plan has had an impact which has lead to there being such a discrepancy between the number of male new hires versus female new hires.

I am concerned that this lack of diversity will cause there to be several "generations" of tax accountants here in City A to be male dominated "generations". (A generation being typically one calendar year because TAs are typically promoted to Accountant I positions after their first year as a TA.)

I am taking this time to voice my concerns so that hopefully when it comes time to make future hiring decisions, management may strive to hire a more gender diverse group of individuals.

Thank you for your time,

"Balefont"

My Team Leader (TL) forwarded my concerns to our Manager and our (older, white male) Manager gave my TL some figures that he felt would alleviate my concerns. Here is my email to my Manager after the meeting with my TL:

Good morning, [Manager].

I hope you are well.

I met with [my Team Leader] this morning to discuss your thoughts and information with regard to the Diversity issue that I raised yesterday as an Associate Satisfaction feedback item. First I want to thank you for promptly addressing the issue. I feel that the information and data conveyed this morning was helpful in establishing a more informed understanding of the diversity of our work environment.

I also would like to add that I do feel fortunate to work in such a diverse environment here in the City A Tax Office. We have an extensive age, gender and ethnicity range from which we are able to promote diverse ideas, discussions, points of view, etc.

That said, I was wondering if perhaps the facts and percentages provided to me are inclusive of both the City A and City B Tax offices. I note that the percentages provided to me this morning reflect not only the new TA hires but all of the positions filled within our region of Tax Services. The reason I chose to look only at the City A Tax Office is because this is my immediate work environment. While I understand that ideas, discussions, thoughts, etc. can easily cross the physical distance between the City A and City B Tax offices, I believe that the immediate physical work environment is what may suffer from a future lack of gender diversity.

In addition to my focusing primarily on the City A Tax office, I chose to focus on our entry level positions for the following reason: Entry level positions in Tax Services are what I would consider "clean slate" positions. These positions are normally filled by qualified people who have little to no experience in tax or related fields as opposed to the higher level positions which require a someone to possess qualities such as more experience and training from the prospective candidates. The entry level positions allow for a greater opportunity to fill the roles with a diverse group of individuals.

Our new generations of (hopefully) future tax accountants here in City A, while perhaps ethnically diverse, are not gender diverse. Only 26% of our TAs hired here in City A have been women. Aside from [our female TA] (who is a paragon in her own right), none of the other five current TA positions are held by women. I feel that, should this trend continue, our environment will suffer from the lack of gender diversity. I would even venture to argue that hiring an Asian male is not equivalent to hiring a woman.

Again, I understand that the hiring of qualified individuals is a complex, costly and time consuming task faced by management. I would hate to see a woman hired just for being female. I understand that there is more to this than my basic observations. I simply wanted to convey my observations and related concerns in the hopes that perhaps this gender discrepancy of the young, new hires may not have a negative impact on us and our accomplishments in the future.

Again, thank you for your time and for listening to my concerns. I welcome any feedback you may have for me either by email or through verbal communication.

Have a great day and a wonderful weekend,

"Balefont"