R+L=J v.43

[MtnLion]

I don't really know what the extent of Ned and Ashara's relationship is but, I think it is reasonable to think it was beyond one simple dance.

Cersei,

Cersei's own suspicions of where Ned got the bastard, from in complete knowledge of facts and timeline

Cat,

Nope, she just related a rumor she had heard.

Jojen Reed,

Nope, or provide a quote.

Harwin,

Had heard the same rumor Catelyn had heard. Not more than one source so far as we know.

Ned's own servants,

Same as Harwin and Catelyn.

why is it that all these people one being the son of Howland Reed the only man alive that knows about TOJ, seem to think Ned and Ashara had some sort of intimate relationship?

Who said they had an intimate relationship? You are going on hearsay, all third person or further away. Rumors grow as they spread, it has been proven. What basis do they really have? It is entirely likely that Ashara herself planted one before leaping from the Palestone Sword. Finally, if Ned had a romantic relationship with Ashara, why on earth does he not think of her as he anticipates his death?

I'm finding it hard to believe their suspicions are solely based on the fact that Ned had one dance with her, when she also danced with several other men at the TOH yet multiple ppl in Westeros fom KL to the North think Ned and Ashara had something goin on. I think there might be something big that GRRM hasn't revealed to us yet that will explain a little more about Ned and Ashara and why people seem to think they had something between them.

I find it hard to find any solid, reliable evidence to contribute to the theory of Ashara and any Stark. Except the one line that Barristan says Stark, and he includes himself in that line, having also a very positive assessment of Ned. Barristan did not want to dishonor Ashara, so why would you transfer dishonor to the Stark in the same line?

[Jon Icefyre]

Cersei's own suspicions of where Ned got the bastard, from in complete knowledge of facts and timeline Nope, she just related a rumor she had heard.Nope, or provide a quote. Had heard the same rumor Catelyn had heard. Not more than one source so far as we know.Same as Harwin and Catelyn.Who said they had an intimate relationship? You are going on hearsay, all third person or further away. Rumors grow as they spread, it has been proven. What basis do they really have? It is entirely likely that Ashara herself planted one before leaping from the Palestone Sword. Finally, if Ned had a romantic relationship with Ashara, why on earth does he not think of her as he anticipates his death?

I find it hard to find any solid, reliable evidence to contribute to the theory of Ashara and any Stark. Except the one line that Barristan says Stark, and he includes himself in that line, having also a very positive assessment of Ned. Barristan did not want to dishonor Ashara, so why would you transfer dishonor to the Stark in the same line?

Hahaha my friend I think you might be over analyzing this. Where did these rumors come from? How did they start? If it was such an unreliable rumor why was it spread through various parts of Westeros? Why is it that Cersei is confidant enough in this rumor to actually confront Ned about it as he's revealing her little secrete? Rumors like this are usually based on some truth and I doubt that truth is simply one little dance he had with Ashara. The whole "dishonoring" her is not a black and white issue there are a lot of grey areas Ned was forced into a marriage with Cat for the sake of war alliances, I mean she was set to marry his brother for christs sake we don't know what his intentions were prior to that. Robb Stark marrys because he feels guilt for dishonoring Jeyne who's to say Ned might not have wanted to do the same with Ashara until overwhelming cirumstances of war forced him to do otherwise? When your young you give into impulses, moments of passion, feeling of intimacy obviously in hindsight it looks like dishonoring but in the moment of it happening it probably didn't seem that way to them. Also they seem to trust each other enough to relay top secrete vital information to each other as it seems Ashara Dayne is the most likely canidate in terms of who told Ned where Lyanna was. Look this is mostly speculation on my part i'll admit it and to be honest I'm not really too keen on selling the idea that Ned was sleeping with Ashara as I don't really like the thought of Ned doing that myself, but I'm really bored at the moment so I thought I'd switch up my thought process for once hahaha. Anyway regardless I think there are a lot of grey areas with Ned and Ashara that need/probably will be addressed by GRRM in the future and not nearly enough to go on at the moment to flat out confirm or deny that they did or didn't have relations beyond the dance at the TOH.

[Ruby Chevrolet]

It does matter, because Ned is not unfaithful until after he is married.This is tiresome, Barristan thinks of "at Harrenhal" as at the Tourney at Harrenhal. If it is otherwise, produce one substantiating text that Ashara was at Harrenhal, or traveled for two months through contested territory to have a tryst with Ned Stark.Jon Snow cannot be older than Robb.

It specifically is conception, reread Catelyn's chapters in A Game of Thrones.

Are you joking? There is a ton of textual evidence. To give a few examples.

The evidence that there was an affair is Eddard's claim that Jon is his bastard.

The evidence it was with Ashara is the fact that Catelyn, Cersei and half the realm think it was her.

The evidence for when it happened is that it had to have been 9 months or so before Jon was born.

The evidence of where it happened is that Barristan places it at Harrenhal. Eddard was in the vicinity at the right time and Ashara was emphatically not nailed down at Starfall.

Whether Jon is older than Robb or younger is irrelevant but I can assure you you won't find any statement in Catelyn's Game of Thrones chapters that talks in any explicit way about which child was conceived first.

[Dragonfish]

Whether Jon is older than Robb or younger is irrelevant but I can assure you you won't find any statement in Catelyn's Game of Thrones chapters that talks in any explicit way about which child was conceived first.

We do find such a statement in one of Ned's chapters. He explicitly tells Robert that he fathered Jon while Catelyn was carrying his child. He has no reason to lie about such a thing to his king if Jon is really his son, so we can be pretty sure that if Ned is his father, then Jon was conceived after Ned's marriage to Cat.

[Jon Icefyre]

Are you joking? There is a ton of textual evidence. To give a few examples.

The evidence that there was an affair is Eddard's claim that Jon is his bastard.

The evidence it was with Ashara is the fact that Catelyn, Cersei and half the realm think it was her.

The evidence for when it happened is that it had to have been 9 months or so before Jon was born.

The evidence of where it happened is that Barristan places it at Harrenhal. Eddard was in the vicinity at the right time and Ashara was emphatically not nailed down at Starfall.

Whether Jon is older than Robb or younger is irrelevant but I can assure you you won't find any statement in Catelyn's Game of Thrones chapters that talks in any explicit way about which child was conceived first.

Actually i'm pretty sure there is. When Cat brings Robb to winterfell she believes Robb is like 2 or 3 months older than Jon. While I do think it's possible Ashara and Ned might have had something going on, I absolutely do not believe Ashara is Jon Snow's mother.

[Alia of the knife]

On Ashara and her Disgrace:

The way I read this, and perhaps it's a matter of semantics in the use of "a Stark," is that it means one amongst many in the same group/family, (I also know there aren't that many, only three: Brandon, Ned, and Benjen, who is too young, but nonethless, a Stark, but which one)?

This wording is typically clever "Martinism."

There is also the fact that the same book that Barrisistan reveals this, is the same book we get a little more information on Brandon, who sounds like a Northern version of the Red Viper.

There is also the historical fact that men and women did not have "friendships" in those days the way we do today, where she might go to a man outside her clan or family for help, or divulge any intimates secrets, because such things were not spoken of, at least not with a shy boy like Ned. Perhaps those alliances happend with the rakes at Court, but not naive Ned- unless Ned had some influence over whatever man Ashara needed help with, and there was only one man Ned could do anything about, and that was his Brother.

Ned was not apart of the "in" crowd like Brandon was. Brandon would have associated with his peers, and Ashara would have been in the middle of all that. It's unlikely that she would have ever noticed Ned unless Brandon asked her to dance with him.

That Ned may have had a crush on her, (and I haven't seen any evidence of that in his thought processes), is an unintended consequence of what likely was already a burgeoning love affair between Brandon and Ashara, though she may have come to appreciate later, the man that Ned was.

And sadly, Brandon may not have been adverse to using Ned as a cover, and thats what everyone remembered, though it seems that Selmy is a little more savvy, and noticed something more.

But, it's my speculation that Brandon was the one who seduced/dishonored Ashara and that she loved him, or why not drink her tea? Certainly if Ashara didn't love the Father of her child, and it was a casual thing, she would have taken precautions like the good Dornish woman she was.

Later, she prevailed upon Ned for help, because he would be the only man who could perhaps intervene, and go to Rickard, or marry her himself since it would be likley that Brandon would not be able to break his betrothal with the Tullys.

While the Daynes were not as high as the Tullys, they were still too high to dishonor in such a public way.

I imagine also that another piece of this is that Ned protected Cat from the knowledge that Brandon didn't love her, (though later it may not matter to her), but more importantly kept it from Hoster that Brandon insulted Cat.

.

[Jon Icefyre]

On Ashara and her Disgrace:

The way I read this, and perhaps it's a matter of semantics in the use of "a Stark," is that it means one amongst many in the same group/family, (I also know there aren't that many, only three: Brandon, Ned, and Benjen, who is too young, but nonethless, a Stark, but which one)?

This wording is typically clever "Martinism."

There is also the fact that the same book that Barrisistan reveals this, is the same book we get a little more information on Brandon, who sounds like a Northern version of the Red Viper.

There is also the historical fact that men and women did not have "friendships" in those days the way we do today, where she might go to a man outside her clan or family for help, or divulge any intimates secrets, because such things were not spoken of, at least not with a shy boy like Ned. Perhaps those alliances happend with the rakes at Court, but not naive Ned- unless Ned had some influence over whatever man Ashara needed help with, and there was only one man Ned could do anything about, and that was his Brother.

Ned was not apart of the "in" crowd like Brandon was. Brandon would have associated with his peers, and Ashara would have been in the middle of all that. It's unlikely that she would have ever noticed Ned unless Brandon asked her to dance with him.

That Ned may have had a crush on her, (and I haven't seen any evidence of that in his thought processes), is an unintended consequence of what likely was already a burgeoning love affair between Brandon and Ashara, though she may have come to appreciate later, the man that Ned was.

And sadly, Brandon may not have been adverse to using Ned as a cover, and thats what everyone remembered, though it seems that Selmy is a little more savvy, and noticed something more.

But, it's my speculation that Brandon was the one who seduced/dishonored Ashara and that she loved him, or why not drink her tea? Certainly if Ashara didn't love the Father of her child, and it was a casual thing, she would have taken percautions like the good Dornish woman she was.

Later, she prevailed upon Ned for help, because he would be the only man who could perhaps intervene, and go to Rickard, or marry her himself since it would be likley that Brandon would not be able to break his betrothal with the Tullys.

While the Daynes were not as high as the Tullys, they were still too high to dishonor in such a public way.

I imagine also that another piece of this is that Ned protected Cat from the knowledge that Brandon didn't love her, (though later it may not matter to her), but more importantly kept it from Hoster that Brandon insulted Cat.

.

I love this, I think it could definitely be possible that ppl in the realm are confusing Brandon with Eddard in terms of an actual sexual relationship with Ashara while Ned was simply playing the trusted friend/Dr. Phil part. As I said before there are definitely a lot of grey areas concerning Ashara Dayne and the Stark family that I expect GRRM to address in the future.

[Ruby Chevrolet]

We do find such a statement in one of Ned's chapters. He explicitly tells Robert that he fathered Jon while Catelyn was carrying his child. He has no reason to lie about such a thing to his king if Jon is really his son, so we can be pretty sure that if Ned is his father, then Jon was conceived after Ned's marriage to Cat.

No, that passage says Eddard was married when Jon was born. At best it is ambiguous whether Eddard was married when Jon was conceived.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Dragonfish and Jon Icefyre have the right of it: Whether it's true or not, Ned's story as he relates it to Robert depends on Jon being older and Ned being unfaithful to Catelyn after they were married. The way Ned tells his story, Catelyn was already pregnant with Robb when Ned "dishonored" her, making Robb "officially" older, whether he actually is or not. To my mind, Ned may or may not know precisely which boy is older but plays along like Robb is — even if it means him having to "own up" to infidelity — to keep Catelyn from worrying about the succession, because she knows that Robb, the legitimate son, is the oldest. If Jon were "offically" the oldest, there might be some paranoia going on.

No, that passage says Eddard was married when Jon was born. At best it is ambiguous whether Eddard was married when Jon was conceived.

If Ned conceived Jon before he married Catelyn, then there's no actual infidelity and no real "dishonor." The way he talks, it absolutely is unambiguous that he publicly admits to fathering Jon after he was married to Catelyn. And considering that Robb was conceived on their wedding night, if Ned fathered Jon after they were married, then Robb is older than Jon, unless Robb was born late or Jon was born prematurely, neither of which is ever suggested.

[Ruby Chevrolet]

Actually i'm pretty sure there is. When Cat brings Robb to winterfell she believes Robb is like 2 or 3 months older than Jon. While I do think it's possible Ashara and Ned might have had something going on, I absolutely do not believe Ashara is Jon Snow's mother.

No, it just says Jon was there with his wetnurse. It doesn't say anything about age (it does not even say whether Robb was still nursing).

But as I said, this is irrelevant to whether Ashara is Jon's mother. The tryst could have happened before or after Eddard's wedding as long as it happened at Harrenhal 9 or so months before Jon was born.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

No, that passage says Eddard was married when Jon was born. At best it is ambiguous whether Eddard was married when Jon was conceived.

The passage is definitely ambiguous but I tend to think "I had taken her to wife. She was carrying my child" refers to the moment of dishonor (ie the conception) rather than the actual birth of the child, at which point the dishonor is already fait accompli.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The passage is definitely ambiguous but I tend to think "I had taken her to wife. She was carrying my child" refers to the moment of dishonor (ie the conception) rather than the actual birth of the child, at which point the dishonor is already fait accompli.

Exactly.

No, it just says Jon was there with his wetnurse. It doesn't say anything about age (it does not even say whether Robb was still nursing).

But as I said, this is irrelevant to whether Ashara is Jon's mother. The tryst could have happened before or after Eddard's wedding as long as it happened at Harrenhal 9 or so months before Jon was born.

Wait, you're actually making the claim that Ashara is Jon's mother? ... OK.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

On Ashara and her Disgrace:

The way I read this, and perhaps it's a matter of semantics in the use of "a Stark," is that it means one amongst many in the same group/family, (I also know there aren't that many, only three: Brandon, Ned, and Benjen, who is too young, but nonethless, a Stark, but which one)?

This wording is typically clever "Martinism."

There is also the fact that the same book that Barrisistan reveals this, is the same book we get a little more information on Brandon, who sounds like a Northern version of the Red Viper.

There is also the historical fact that men and women did not have "friendships" in those days the way we do today, where she might go to a man outside her clan or family for help, or divulge any intimates secrets, because such things were not spoken of, at least not with a shy boy like Ned. Perhaps those alliances happend with the rakes at Court, but not naive Ned- unless Ned had some influence over whatever man Ashara needed help with, and there was only one man Ned could do anything about, and that was his Brother.

Ned was not apart of the "in" crowd like Brandon was. Brandon would have associated with his peers, and Ashara would have been in the middle of all that. It's unlikely that she would have ever noticed Ned unless Brandon asked her to dance with him.

That Ned may have had a crush on her, (and I haven't seen any evidence of that in his thought processes), is an unintended consequence of what likely was already a burgeoning love affair between Brandon and Ashara, though she may have come to appreciate later, the man that Ned was.

And sadly, Brandon may not have been adverse to using Ned as a cover, and thats what everyone remembered, though it seems that Selmy is a little more savvy, and noticed something more.

But, it's my speculation that Brandon was the one who seduced/dishonored Ashara and that she loved him, or why not drink her tea? Certainly if Ashara didn't love the Father of her child, and it was a casual thing, she would have taken percautions like the good Dornish woman she was.

Later, she prevailed upon Ned for help, because he would be the only man who could perhaps intervene, and go to Rickard, or marry her himself since it would be likley that Brandon would not be able to break his betrothal with the Tullys.

While the Daynes were not as high as the Tullys, they were still too high to dishonor in such a public way.

I imagine also that another piece of this is that Ned protected Cat from the knowledge that Brandon didn't love her, (though later it may not matter to her), but more importantly kept it from Hoster that Brandon insulted Cat.

.

This is more or less what I've been saying. Thank you for elaborately so nicely :)

I think the whole Ned/Ashara business reeks of red herring. They may have known each other. Danced together at the tourney, Ashara may have even been involved in the ToJ situation. But I cannot find it in me to believe there was a romantic attachment (beyond a possible initial crush on Ned's part) I think "the Stark" she turned to was Brandon and (unless Mtn Lion manages to convince me of the Aerys scenario ;)) if she had a child it was Brandon's. As for Ned- the poor guy spends the rest of his life covering up the mess his siblings left him. :frown5:

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

This is more or less what I've been saying. Thank you for elaborately so nicely :)

I think the whole Ned/Ashara business reeks of red herring. They may have known each other. Danced together at the tourney, Ashara may have even been involved in the ToJ situation. But I cannot find it in me to believe there was a romantic attachment (beyond a possible initial crush on Ned's part) I think "the Stark" she turned to was Brandon and (unless Mtn Lion manages to convince me of the Aerys scenario ;)) if she had a child it was Brandon's. As for Ned- the poor guy spends the rest of his life covering up the mess his siblings left him. :frown5:

I also think it's very telling that despite a lot of third-party gossip about Ned and Ashara, Ned thinks of her exactly never.

[Ruby Chevrolet]

The passage is definitely ambiguous but I tend to think "I had taken her to wife. She was carrying my child" refers to the moment of dishonor (ie the conception) rather than the actual birth of the child, at which point the dishonor is already fait accompli.

Yes, the ambiguity is the whole point, right? You can construe all of this one way, I can construe it another. Neither of us can prove the other is wrong until Mr. Martin decides to give us the answer to the mystery.

[Ame]

I read the lines Ser Barristan had about Ashara to mean she wasn't into Ned Stark, but into his older brother, the same older brother who sleeps around a lot.

I also wonder why Ned Stark who could still see the sword of the morning all these years later when he has forgotten what others at the Tower of Joy long after he forgot what his friends looked like would be ashamed that Jon Snow is related to the great Ser Arthur Dayne? Why keep the secret? There is no indication he would run away to become an uncared for peasant.

We have to give Ned some credit.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Yes, the ambiguity is the whole point, right? You can construe all of this one way, I can construe it another. Neither of us can prove the other is wrong until Mr. Martin decides to give us the answer to the mystery.

Except that if you actually pay attention to what Ned is thinking and the clues, it's not THAT ambiguous. GRRM doesn't need to beat people upside the head with it in order for it to be the most logical conclusion. Just like I didn't need my mom to tell me Santa wasn't real. At this point, GRRM saying that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna is just a confirmation of what a lot of us already know, not a dispute to be "settled."

[Sasha Steelsong]

No, it just says Jon was there with his wetnurse. It doesn't say anything about age (it does not even say whether Robb was still nursing).

But as I said, this is irrelevant to whether Ashara is Jon's mother. The tryst could have happened before or after Eddard's wedding as long as it happened at Harrenhal 9 or so months before Jon was born.

Not in that passage but when Catelyn is remembering leaving Riverrun with Robb to head north (as Robb is entering it after having liberated it from the Lannister siege), she remembers him in swaddling clothes. Meaning that he was only a few months old at best. And when she arrived at Winterfell Jon was there and Catelyn believed him to be of an age with Robb. You are not going to confuse a 9 month old baby with a 5 month old baby - way too much development happens in the first year for Robb and Jon to be more than a couple of months apart because no one questions that Jon is slightly younger than Robb. That combined with the nature of Ned's thoughts on the subject mean that the official story is that Jon was conceived after Ned was wed.

Nor do I accept your interpretation of "at Harranhal" but not at the time of the tourney - whenever anyone refers it outside of the cursed legacy, it seems to be the tournament that happened a year before the war. In the extremely unlikely event that there was something physical between Ned and Ashara, it didn't not occur then and produce Jon. Jon would be at least a year older if that was the case.

ETA: I'm with Apple in that Ned never thinking once of Ashara in any terms, let alone romantic, sort of rules him out as the Stark in Barristan's description.

ETA II: missed a "not" - sort of changes the whole sentence but I think Jon IceFyre got the idea anyway :)

[Dragonfish]

Whether Jon is older than Robb or younger is irrelevant but I can assure you you won't find any statement in Catelyn's Game of Thrones chapters that talks in any explicit way about which child was conceived first.

I'm re-quoting this post to point out that it actually isn't true. Here are Catelyn's thoughts from one of her first chapters in AGOT:

Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man's needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father's castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to the child's needs.

Catelyn is very clearly stating here that she believes Jon was conceived during the first year of her and Ned's marriage.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Yes, the ambiguity is the whole point, right? You can construe all of this one way, I can construe it another. Neither of us can prove the other is wrong until Mr. Martin decides to give us the answer to the mystery.

That is something we can agree on :)