R+L=J v.43

[Ghost's Shadow]

I'm intrigued as well. Ygrain's been teasing us far too much with 'please state your better candidates'! :P

[Techelles]

One more for the would-reads, though I'd rather see it as its own thread on the forum than in a url. It will just be easier to discuss that way.

[Queen of Procrastination]

I would love to read your theory, too. I am allways interested in new theories. Even though I believe in R+L=J I´ve allways read alternative theories and I am allways interested in the evidence.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I'm vote #9...

I always enjoy reading new and different theories, but I agree with Techelles that it would be best for discussion if it were a new thread.

I look forward to it :)

[wordsarelikewind]

i'll read it.

[UVA]

One more for the would-reads, though I'd rather see it as its own thread on the forum than in a url. It will just be easier to discuss that way.

Indeed. Consider me the 'nth' vote. This level of analysis deserves it's own thread. Because R+L=J has had so much momentum in the fandom, as you say, and rationally so in my opinion, there has been significant peer review over the years. [bold]Greenfyre's[/bold] ideas need to be read and submitted for similar scrutiny.

[Alia of the knife]

This line of thinking is straying somewhat from the straightforward consideration of whether R+L=J and if so what it means, but I would make a couple of observations on this. First Dany does indeed fit all the criteria, having been born on Dragonstone, the smoking island in the salt sea and killing her husband in order to hatch the dragons.

The real problem is that while we have been fed more or less consistent pieces of the Azor Ahai prophecy we don't know what the Prince that Was Promised prophecy is actually about. Mel, as noted, thinks they are one and the same. Aemon seemed to think otherwise although its ambiguous. What may be significant is that Mel refers to the Azor Ahai prophecy going back 5,000 years while the Prince that was Promised appears to be much more recent.

A slightly heretical thought is that perhaps the Prince was Promised to slay Azor Ahai...

Be that as it may, we've been told by GRRM that Mel has her own agenda and its pretty obvious from Master Benero's preaching in ADwD that the mainstream Red Temple thinking on Azor Ahai/Dany is very different from Mel's. They seem to be preaching revolution where they are, rather than meeting an external threat in the far north of Westeros.

"A slightly heretical thought is that perhaps the Prince was Promised to slay Azor Ahai."

Now there is a thought.

And yes, I have been enjoying the Heresy threads. :)

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

I would like to hear the alternate theories, as long as they detailed & are allowed to question them. We get an awful lot of the same ground covered when people offer them though.

[TheLarkofBraavos]

I would love to hear and new Jon parentage theory that has some weight to it. L+R=J is heavily thought to be the absolute truth. If there is real textual evidence that Lyanna possibly could have been impregnated by anyone besides Rhaegar or slim chance of Robert, or god forbid a incestuous relationship with one for her brothers, I would be open to considering it. :thumbsup:

[Ghost's Shadow]

If Robert had had her, so they could have their own baby under way, we would know because Robert is not one to keep his mouth shut about that stuff.

[FrozenFire3]

I would love to hear and new Jon parentage theory that has some weight to it. L+R=J is heavily thought to be the absolute truth. If there is real textual evidence that Lyanna possibly could have been impregnated by anyone besides Rhaegar or slim chance of Robert, or god forbid a incestuous relationship with one for her brothers, I would be open to considering it. :thumbsup:

I think timeline clashes against both scenarios. The only two possible alternatives I can think of are Oswell Whent and Arthur Dayne. Intriguing, especially in the second case, but not realistic. A crown prince helping his best friend to 'kidnap' his sweetheart and then keeping them company in hiding? Most importantly why denying Jon the gift of truth then?

[MtnLion]

Concur with FrozenFire3, There is an awful lot of textual support for R + L = J that is going to need to be accounted for in any alternate theory. The timeline I have put out before, and will again:

Harrenhal = 0

Aegon's birth = 9-15 months

Brandon's ride to King's Landing = Aegon's birth + weeks or months

The beginning of the rebellion = Aegon's birth + 1-2 month(s)

The fall of King's Landing (Aerys' death) 21-27 months

Jon's birth = 22-28 months

Daenerys' birth 30-36 months.

(We know that Jaime was 15 at Harrenhal. It appears that Elia was not pregnant before Harrenhal. We know that Aegon was about 12 months old when he was killed. We know that Rhaenys was 2-3 years old when she was killed*. We know that Jaime was 17 when he killed Aerys.)

While I am willing to read the material, false assumptions tend to cut my reading very short. Any material needs to be fully supported, and not contradicted in the text.

As for Ashara's pregnancy, stillbirth means that it was full term. Barristan obviously knows when Ashara was impregnated (at Harrenhal), and has been told that she had a stillborn daughter, though he seems not to have witnessed it. That birth was before Brandon's ride for King's Landing, because Rhaegar made his determination to marry again after Aegon's birth.

*ETA Rhaenys is at least six months old before Elia conceives again (bedridden for half a year). Thus she must be at least six months old at Harrenhal.

[LadyMary]

Concur with FrozenFire3, There is an awful lot of textual support for R + L = J that is going to need to be accounted for in any alternate theory. The timeline I have put out before, and will again:

Harrenhal = 0

Aegon's birth = 9-15 months

Brandon's ride to King's Landing = Aegon's birth + weeks or months

The beginning of the rebellion = Aegon's birth + 1-2 month(s)

The fall of King's Landing (Aerys' death) 21-27 months

Jon's birth = 22-28 months

Daenerys' birth 30-36 months.

(We know that Jaime was 15 at Harrenhal. It appears that Elia was not pregnant before Harrenhal. We know that Aegon was about 12 months old when he was killed. We know that Rhaenys was 2-3 years old when she was killed*. We know that Jaime was 17 when he killed Aerys.)

While I am willing to read the material, false assumptions tend to cut my reading very short. Any material needs to be fully supported, and not contradicted in the text.

As for Ashara's pregnancy, stillbirth means that it was full term. Barristan obviously knows when Ashara was impregnated (at Harrenhal), and has been told that she had a stillborn daughter, though he seems not to have witnessed it. That birth was before Brandon's ride for King's Landing, because Rhaegar made his determination to marry again after Aegon's birth.

*ETA Rhaenys is at least six months old before Elia conceives again (bedridden for half a year). Thus she must be at least six months old at Harrenhal.

I think this timeline sounds about right. My only quibble is with the bolded text. Barristan never says that Ashara's baby was conceived at Harrenhal. He recalls that Ashara turned to a "Stark" (probably Ned but possibly Brandon?) at Harrenhal and imagines that if he had won and crowned her QoLaB himself, she might not have done so. That's an assumption on his part, and while his memories imply that said Stark impregnated her, they don't explicitly indicate when Ashara gave birth. For that matter, Barristan assumes it was a Stark but we don't know that for sure either. GRRM has apparently stated that Ashara was not nailed down at Starfall so presumably she could have been off somewhere with her Stark lover after Harrenhal and gotten pregnant then.

I'm not sure what Ashara's pregnancy has to do with R+L=J, except that it's another interesting tidbit of gossip involving various Starks that allows some to believe that Ashara might have been Jon's mother. If Ned had been Ashara's lover and fathered her stillborn daughter then there was a kernel of truth behind the rumors, just a different baby (a girl, not Jon). It would add to the guilt that Ned feels about the lies he told to keep his sister's promise, because the rumor gave cover to it - even if Ned squealched discussion of the rumors in Winterfell.

[Ruby Chevrolet]

While I am willing to read the material, false assumptions tend to cut my reading very short. Any material needs to be fully supported, and not contradicted in the text.

As for Ashara's pregnancy, stillbirth means that it was full term. Barristan obviously knows when Ashara was impregnated (at Harrenhal), and has been told that she had a stillborn daughter, though he seems not to have witnessed it. That birth was before Brandon's ride for King's Landing, because Rhaegar made his determination to marry again after Aegon's birth.

This may be an example of a false assumption: you are confusing "where" with "when." Ser Barristan believes that Lady Ashara was dishonored at Harrenhal. He doesn't say that this happened during the tournament. For all we know, Lord Eddard could have dishonored Lady Ashara, at Harrenhal, a few days or weeks before he went to Riverrun to marry Lady Catelyn. That would be about nine months before Jon Snow was born.

Think about it like this. Lady Arya Stark made weasel soup "at Harrenhal". But she wasn't there during the year of the false spring.

[Ygrain]

And what would either of them be doing at Harrenhall at that time?

[MtnLion]

There are always those that want Ashara to have been dishonored by a Stark. The truth is we do not have even the slightest hint from Barristan who dishonored Ashara at Harrenhal (Elia and she are at Harrenhal only during the tourney). We do know that Barristan wanted to show his lady love of his devotion by awarding her the crown, but he was unable to defeat Rhaegar in the final joust of the tourney at Harrenhal. He hoped by doing so he would have persuaded Ashara to trun to him instead of, or before turning to a Stark. Read that sentence and substitute what your mind seems to do, turn to for dishonor. Nope, neither Barristan hoped to, nor did a Stark dishonor Ashara.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Perusing the front of the new thread I was struck by this. Ghost being white has been discussed on some level here (I mentioned it back in v38 and I know it's been raised before) but I wonder if this angle has ever been brought up:

Jon, the half Targ/half Stark skinchanger, wargs a white direwolf that simultaneously represents House Stark (the direwolf) and House Targaryen (with the "weirwood coloring" of the only known Targ skinchanger who also happens to now be part of a weirwood tree)

I initially thought of Ghost's weirwood coloring as being a variation of Stark symbolism. I 'm wondering if others have noticed this Targ connection?

Dude, my theory about this is that it is the direwolves who have the warging power, not the starks and jon snow. Otherwise the warging power would have to be genetic and come only from the Stark grandparents, which seems highly unlikely. The wolves are a gift from the old gods and they have a bond with their humans, not the other way around.

[MtnLion]

I think this timeline sounds about right. My only quibble is with the bolded text. Barristan never says that Ashara's baby was conceived at Harrenhal.

Not directly, but that is the implication he makes by saying that she was dishonored at Harrenhal.

He recalls that Ashara turned to a "Stark" (probably Ned but possibly Brandon?) at Harrenhal

Nope, not at Harrenhal, the location is not divulged, but certainly Barristan did not want to dishonor Ashara himself.

and imagines that if he had won and crowned her QoLaB himself, she might not have done so.

There are other reasons to turn to a mighty lord, like to regain status after having been dishonored, by arranging a marriage. Lysa and Jon Arryn did just that.

That's an assumption on his part, and while his memories imply that said Stark impregnated her,

Nope his thoughts do not lead to any implication of who impregnated Ashara. In fact, since Ashara is his lady love, it would be totally out of character for Barristan to have positive thoughts of any Stark that had dishonored Ashara.

they don't explicitly indicate when Ashara gave birth.

Nine months after she was dishonored. It was the year of the false spring, with winter delaying Ashara's departure from court in disgrace, having been dishonored at Harrenhal.

For that matter, Barristan assumes it was a Stark but we don't know that for sure either.

Barristan does nothing of the sort. If he did he would not think well of Starks, which he does.

GRRM has apparently stated that Ashara was not nailed down at Starfall so presumably she could have been off somewhere with her Stark lover after Harrenhal and gotten pregnant then.

She was Elia's BFF, She was disgraced at Harrenhal, when they went to the tourney, according to Barristan. That would place the birth of the child at King's Landing or enroute, or at Starfall after she leaves court in disgrace. That would account for Barristan knowing about the stillborn daughter, if she gave birth at King's Landing. I'm sure that Barristan can count to nine, while he may not be the sharpest tool in the crib. If he did know who dishonored Ashara, why did he say "man dishonored Ashara"? It could be because he knows it was Aerys, and his pledge ensures that he not reveal it. But, I will subscribe to that he does not know.

I'm not sure what Ashara's pregnancy has to do with R+L=J, except that it's another interesting tidbit of gossip involving various Starks that allows some to believe that Ashara might have been Jon's mother. If Ned had been Ashara's lover and fathered her stillborn daughter then there was a kernel of truth behind the rumors, just a different baby (a girl, not Jon). It would add to the guilt that Ned feels about the lies he told to keep his sister's promise, because the rumor gave cover to it - even if Ned squealched discussion of the rumors in Winterfell.

It matters because the timeline with Elia's pregnancy coincides. There does not need to be anymore behind the story than is known, that Ned danced with Ashara at Harrenhal Tourney. Of course when Ned returns Dawn to house Dayne, Ashara can ask about the fate of her BFF, Elia, and ask Ned to marry her to wipe out the dishonor she suffered at the ahnds of some unnamed man. (I really think that Barristan would do his utmost to determine who the unnamed man was and confront him, based upon his feelings for Ashara. That he does not know the name of the man should mean somthing to us.)

[Ruby Chevrolet]

And what would either of them be doing at Harrenhall at that time?

You mean, apart from making a baby together?

Harrenhal is a logical place for Lord Eddard and Lord Jon Arryn to meet and it is a very important strategic location. It is close to the crossroads where the roads from the Vale and the North meet on their way to King's Landing and the South. That is why Lord Tywin occupied it at the start of the War of Five Kings. So there is every reason to think that both Eddard and Jon passed through Harrenhal or even made it a base for their operations during the rebellion.

As for Lady Ashara, the reasons to think she was there are that Ser Barristan says that is where she was dishonored, Lady Catelyn believes it is possible that Lady Ashara had a baby (Jon Snow) by Lord Eddard nine months after that, and Mr. Martin has said that she was not nailed down in Starfall during the rebellion. For all we know, Lady Ashara went off looking for her brother Ser Arthur, who had recently disappeared with Ser Oswell Whent (of the Harrenhal Whents) and she went to Harrenhal to see if any of Oswell's relatives knew where they were.

[Ygrain]

You mean, apart from making a baby together?

Harrenhal is a logical place for Lord Eddard and Lord Jon Arryn to meet and it is a very important strategic location. It is close to the crossroads where the roads from the Vale and the North meet on their way to King's Landing and the South. That is why Lord Tywin occupied it at the start of the War of Five Kings. So there is every reason to think that both Eddard and Jon passed through Harrenhal or even made it a base for their operations during the rebellion.

As for Lady Ashara, the reasons to think she was there are that Ser Barristan says that is where she was dishonored, Lady Catelyn believes it is possible that Lady Ashara had a baby (Jon Snow) by Lord Eddard nine months after that, and Mr. Martin has said that she was not nailed down in Starfall during the rebellion. For all we know, Lady Ashara went off looking for her brother Ser Arthur, who had recently disappeared with Ser Oswell Whent (of the Harrenhal Whents) and she went to Harrenhal to see if any of Oswell's relatives knew where they were.

Ah. So, you propose that two prominent Rebel leader made a stop at the castle of prominent Targ loyalists? And how did Barristan learn about that little tryst?